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There is no prestige in HoI, so I don't see how it can be modelled. Dissent is not the right variable.
You have a militarist regime that boasts it's mighty warships. One of them sinks in combat. People think you might suck as a ruler. Makes sense to me.

dagas said:
I don't understand. In HoI2 two ships from different nations are identical as long as they have the same class.
In HoI2 ships from different nations share an abstract level (not class) and they have the same values based on that abstraction. A player knows they're equivalent, but not equal.
My fear with HoI3, with the ability to customize the ships, is that players and the AI will always build the biggest-and-best possible every time, so in practise that ability will result in every ship having the same guns, same engine, same hull, etc etc etc.

In HoI3 they have the potential to be different because it's unlikely that we will be able to research every category fully so perhaps Germany will focus in defense and speed while UK focus on guns and range or whatever they decide which means that the ships will be different.
Perhaps, but we don't know how it will be.
Plus, in a system such as yours, and assuming the HoI2 rules on range continue to apply (Johan didn't say anything about changes there), no other characteristic but "range" would matter, so everyone would take it, unless gimping themselves on purpose, again creating an everyone-equal Navy.

Alexander Seil said:
However, the AI will certainly build according to historical specifications, plus I doubt that, given the variety of enemies, economies, technology and geography, there would still be a single clearly "optimal" design.
I'll grant you the added choices for smaller economies, but if the AI builds according to history against game-mechanics we'd just have an AI programmed to shot it's own foot in all things Naval.
 
Your right about BB-BB encounters being limited. I dont believe that is the only test of how good something is though. I compared the stats of a Iowa and Vanguard BB and there are some major differences that do make the Iowa a better BB IMO.
Vanguard- 15in 1920lb shell 2575 fps range 32,500 yard range. 30 knot 17,000km endurance and 51,000 tons displaced.
Iowa- 16in 2700lb AP shell 2690 fps 41,627 yard range. 33 knot 24,000 km endurance and 45,000 tons disp.
The interesting thing about the 16in AP shell was that its penetrating power was nearly equivalent to the 18in AP shell. That mixed with superior range, speed, and naval radar- DEADLY. I never heard of a submarine effect prob on the Iowa class. The Iowa class didnt have many problems cause the service life was over 50 years. I just dont see the Vanguard class being the best on the block. Either way, the BB was a dying breed anyway.

I understand the whole prestige thing. I would say HOI simulates it by- using your ships in a careless manner... no more ships.

Personally I think the Iowas presented a poor bargain as compared to Vanguard, indeed compared to the preceding North Carolinas. There was no improvement in armament over NC, and to achieve the very high theoretical speed of 33kt an enormous amount of space had to be devoted to machinery and they had to be 200 feet longer. In poor weather Vanguard, with her more seaworthy hull, was more than capable of keeping up with Iowa, whilst armour was thicker, particularly on the deck. Because Iowa was so large her protection was in many cases less than NC. Though far better as ships than the cumbersome and clunky Yamato class, personally I feel that the Iowas were inferior to both Vanguard and NC, despite the older guns on the former and the lower speed on the latter.

Although, if it matters, Iowa was far more handsome than the dumpier NCs...

K

Alth
 
Khevenhuller,
Maybe we could wish for a decathalon for the 3 classes of ships. haha.
Race from a stop, seaworthiness in rough seas, gunnery, damages control...

good discussion
 
That mixed with superior range, speed, and naval radar- DEADLY. .

On radar...it was dot a panacea. At the Denmark Strait Hood was shooting using her 284 set and did very badly, spending most of her time shooting inbetween Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. Meanwhile, Prince of Wales' 284 set was not working, and she was denied permission to use her 281 set because the emissions would interfere with Hood's 284. So she shot optically using her rangefinders and Admiralty tables and did far better.

The Germans had their own radar problems. In her prior engagement with Suffolk, Bismarck's gunnery had caused shock damage to her own navigation radar which was why at Denmark Strait she had changed positions with Prinz Eugen whose radar was still working and was in the van searching for the Brits (to avoid them).

Interestingly (and possibly a little OT) Lutjens never gave the order to fire. Hacked off after 3 or 4 salvoes by the Brits, Lindemans allegedly said 'I am not going to have my ship shot from under my a*e' and opened fire himself, ignoring Lutjens hesitancy.

K
 
On radar...it was dot a panacea. At the Denmark Strait Hood was shooting using her 284 set and did very badly, spending most of her time shooting inbetween Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. Meanwhile, Prince of Wales' 284 set was not working, and she was denied permission to use her 281 set because the emissions would interfere with Hood's 284. So she shot optically using her rangefinders and Admiralty tables and did far better.
The Germans had their own radar problems. In her prior engagement with Suffolk, Bismarck's gunnery had caused shock damage to her own navigation radar which was why at Denmark Strait she had changed positions with Prinz Eugen whose radar was still working and was in the van searching for the Brits (to avoid them).
Interestingly (and possibly a little OT) Lutjens never gave the order to fire. Hacked off after 3 or 4 salvoes by the Brits, Lindemans allegedly said 'I am not going to have my ship shot from under my a*e' and opened fire himself, ignoring Lutjens hesitancy.
K

If I remember correctly, the Bismarck force was under orders to avoid combatants anyways. Concentrate on engaging easy pickings. But hey, if you get backed into a slugging match... slug hardest. I feel that these orders were why the Bismarck did not return to Germany and instead went onto the fateful cruise to Western France.
As Americans, we didnt invent everything we used in WWII but we had the resources to take it to new levels.
 
Personally I think the Iowas presented a poor bargain as compared to Vanguard, indeed compared to the preceding North Carolinas. There was no improvement in armament over NC, and to achieve the very high theoretical speed of 33kt an enormous amount of space had to be devoted to machinery and they had to be 200 feet longer.

Indeed. Raising displacement from 35,000 tons to 45,000 bought only 6 knots of speed (in perfect conditions, of course!) - if cost is proportional to displacement that's a 30ish% increase in cost.

HOI2 does not award any consequences to the increase in speed. hopefully Paradox will address this in HOI3.

The British naval designer D.K. Brown fancied Vanguard against an Iowa, and thought she might have a decent chance against even a Yamato - mainly because Iowa's armour belt was very thin.
 
Indeed. Raising displacement from 35,000 tons to 45,000 bought only 6 knots of speed (in perfect conditions, of course!) - if cost is proportional to displacement that's a 30ish% increase in cost.
HOI2 does not award any consequences to the increase in speed. hopefully Paradox will address this in HOI3.
The British naval designer D.K. Brown fancied Vanguard against an Iowa, and thought she might have a decent chance against even a Yamato - mainly because Iowa's armour belt was very thin.

Yeah my source has the Iowa at 100 million bucks. She was very seaworthy too. The belt armor was not thin though. 12in compared to the 14in of the Vanguard class. The Iowa was created to take on the Yamato class.
 
You have a militarist regime that boasts it's mighty warships. One of them sinks in combat. People think you might suck as a ruler. Makes sense to me.


In HoI2 ships from different nations share an abstract level (not class) and they have the same values based on that abstraction. A player knows they're equivalent, but not equal.
My fear with HoI3, with the ability to customize the ships, is that players and the AI will always build the biggest-and-best possible every time, so in practise that ability will result in every ship having the same guns, same engine, same hull, etc etc etc.


Perhaps, but we don't know how it will be.
Plus, in a system such as yours, and assuming the HoI2 rules on range continue to apply (Johan didn't say anything about changes there), no other characteristic but "range" would matter, so everyone would take it, unless gimping themselves on purpose, again creating an everyone-equal Navy.


I'll grant you the added choices for smaller economies, but if the AI builds according to history against game-mechanics we'd just have an AI programmed to shot it's own foot in all things Naval.

Well, in all honesty, I don't see why Paradox has to sacrifice the roleplaying aspect because there is a class of players who play the game as if they were power-leveling in World of Warcraft. I don't care for that playstyle, and I don't want the AI to behave like those players. I want Japan to build a Yamato, because otherwise it wouldn't even feel like you're fighting Japan anymore. After all, she and her sister ship (Musashi) were absolute failures from an operational standpoint...but they're still incredibly cool.
 
I don't care for that playstyle, and I don't want the AI to behave like those players. I want Japan to build a Yamato, because otherwise it wouldn't even feel like you're fighting Japan anymore. After all, she and her sister ship (Musashi) were absolute failures from an operational standpoint...but they're still incredibly cool.

I think Johan mentioned that the ai will biult historical units in land divisions, so i assume that the ai will also do so in naval production.
 
Well, in all honesty, I don't see why Paradox has to sacrifice the roleplaying aspect because there is a class of players who play the game as if they were power-leveling in World of Warcraft. I don't care for that playstyle, and I don't want the AI to behave like those players. I want Japan to build a Yamato, because otherwise it wouldn't even feel like you're fighting Japan anymore. After all, she and her sister ship (Musashi) were absolute failures from an operational standpoint...but they're still incredibly cool.
Well we're both on the same side then. I'm a role-player too, and that's why I'm afraid of the "same ship" effect.

The point with the AI is that going historical for it might mean such a self-limitation it's not even fun. In HoI2 building the Yamato does not make Japan un-fun to fight against. I'm afraid if it sucks too bad in HoI3 it will.
 
If I remember correctly, the Bismarck force was under orders to avoid combatants anyways. Concentrate on engaging easy pickings. But hey, if you get backed into a slugging match... slug hardest. I feel that these orders were why the Bismarck did not return to Germany and instead went onto the fateful cruise to Western France.
As Americans, we didnt invent everything we used in WWII but we had the resources to take it to new levels.

She did not return as retracing her steps was going to be fatal. The nearest port and one least likely to involve running into the Home Fleet was the dockyard at Brest. It turned out to be *almost* the right decision.

British interception turned out to be classic RN doctrine: slow the enemy with an air strike so that brings her within range of the guns of the Home Fleet. But that strike from Victorious could easily have failed to pin their target.

Of course Americans did not invent everything, but there is no doubt that the industrial muscle allowed the US to churn out almost everything in large numbers, from CVEs to pennecillin, that the original inventors could not possibly envisage.

K
 
She did not return as retracing her steps was going to be fatal. The nearest port and one least likely to involve running into the Home Fleet was the dockyard at Brest. It turned out to be *almost* the right decision.
K

The North Sea is a big body of water. The Bismarck could have back-tracked along a parallel route or Norway was viable. Good thing some German Captains didnt always do the right thing.
 
Well we're both on the same side then. I'm a role-player too, and that's why I'm afraid of the "same ship" effect.

The point with the AI is that going historical for it might mean such a self-limitation it's not even fun. In HoI2 building the Yamato does not make Japan un-fun to fight against. I'm afraid if it sucks too bad in HoI3 it will.

What's up with your skepticism? the game hasn't even been released and already it's a huge disappointment? I doubt every nation would build the same ships and I doubt the AI will shoot itself in the foot any more than in HoI2.

If you rather just want to have levels of ships instead of full customization I'm sure you can mod that, but why would you want less choice? I'm not a fan of the generic levels that is in HoI2 which make any BB IV or Tank III the same and I'm looking forward to seeing more distinct units in HoI3.
 
What's up with your skepticism? the game hasn't even been released and already it's a huge disappointment? I doubt every nation would build the same ships and I doubt the AI will shoot itself in the foot any more than in HoI2.
Eu3. Now I'm holding on for being disappointed, so I can perhaps be pleasantly surprised. :p

Still, I think my point stands, considering what little we know so far.

If you rather just want to have levels of ships instead of full customization I'm sure you can mod that, but why would you want less choice? I'm not a fan of the generic levels that is in HoI2 which make any BB IV or Tank III the same and I'm looking forward to seeing more distinct units in HoI3.
I very much doubt one can mod mechanics out of the game... ;)
And we're both on the same track - wanting units (ships in this case) that are not the exact same. Let's hope my fears don't become reality, and your faith does.
 
I didn't really have any hopes for EU3 since I've never cared much for the EU series or CK. I prefer vicky and HoI, but from what I hear EU3 is pretty good after the expansions and patches. I tried it a little when it was first released and seemed okay, with expansions it might be good. Not that I'm trying to make this into a EU3 thread ^^

Lets just hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I like what I've seen so far, more provinces, frontage etc. Many things still I would like to see that I wont, but they're not making Hearts of Victoria so I'll accept that ^^
 
One thing we are forgetting in the AI making the same same vanilla units is that the ability to upgrade the parts and pieces as tech increases will vary greatly between the countries. I doubt that the Ai will make all the same Tech choices as the player AND have the IC to build it and have the ships in shipyard at the best time consistantly to match the player.

Also, it would be nice if the tech upgrades required some time to install on the ships, (Shipyard period) with the ship or squadron starting at at least 0 org, and posibbly somne strenght penanty until the 'commissioning' of the upgrade was completed. Kinda always amazed me that the upgrade suddenly happened i just had to ge the ship to port and install the hull upgrade.
 
are catapult launched planes considered when considering the detection values?

Interesting extra. It sounds like HOI3 is sticking to the basic elements that make a warship a warship (Guns, radar, hull improvements, AA, FC, torps). Extras such as catapult aircraft, commandos, minisubs, etc. are prolly gonna get the axe. Aircraft would give over-the-horizon capability.
 
Interesting extra. It sounds like HOI3 is sticking to the basic elements that make a warship a warship (Guns, radar, hull improvements, AA, FC, torps). Extras such as catapult aircraft, commandos, minisubs, etc. are prolly gonna get the axe. Aircraft would give over-the-horizon capability.

Maybe planes give you a .1 or .2 added for detection. This could then be added together in the fleet detection, like the japanese cruisers at Midway. Then you can pay for it as a small adder that my help out in fleet ops.
 
Would most catapult-launched planes have range long enough to cover sea zones adjacent to the one the ship is in? That could give them a potential application at this scale. Otherwise, they can be assumed to be abstracted, as they were a pretty standard piece of equipment on larger ships, it seems.