Actually, Q3 of 2009 starts in July. Paradox also rarely misses release dates (I think a few weeks was the biggest gap).
Happy with the news about the Naval System - which even with it's HoI2 flaws has become my favourite part. Naval orders looks especially sweet.
Still afraid the "moding ships" feature will mean every single battleship on the Planet built in 1940 is not only an abstract representation of the Bismark's battle capacity, but the actual Bismark, though... anyway, there's Hope!
edit: no info about the whole "eternal CV distance" thing too...
Last edited by th3freakie; 18-12-2008 at 18:49.
Okay change release to "playable"
No forgive me master of paradox
I could imagine because HoI3 is the latest "real big" project paradox is developing, it is quite possible that they could miss the estimated release date.
It is more challenging to develop a completely new game on a new engine (for the HoI-series) than a few expansions for existing titles.
Nevertheless HoI is their best brand so i don't think they will release it on a status like EU or Rome has been released... (i hope so)
But with all those gameplay-additions and new concepts i won't be angry if they would missed the est. date...
Of course if they are able to finish the game in Q3 2009 the more of my respect to them!
Patches i think will definetly follow but i hope they won't have to be so deep as for EU3 to add playability...
Now I'm afraid you'll know they are exact copies of each other, right down to the engine, guns, armour, etc, unless the player or the AI are deliberately limiting themselves.
Everyone says that - "Yes, the next release will be playable out of the box!" Don't bank on it. People have been saying that since EU2, and patches were always essential (not mandatory, but essential to get everything you could out of the game).
I'd be more afraid, by the way, that all the battleships would be copies of Iowa, rather than Bismarck
Thanks for all the hard work y'all are putting into HOI3. You guys know how to make a GREAT war game. The detail that is put into the game is much appreciated. I'm glad y'all are doing the dev diaries. I dont know how I'm going to last until HOI3 is sold.
As a great seakeeper... not sure what you mean, but if you mean endurance- range is more than you think. If you mean sealane dominance- Carriers can control huge swaths of ocean, whereas the Iowa was limited to 32 miles or so.
Well as the US had been building ships throughout the 20's and 30's, and the Iowas were at the end of a line of development, whereas Bismarck was based on the old WWI Bayern hull (hence the poor underwater protection and weakness in terms of shock damage) I would be most surprised if it were otherwise.
As for seakeeping, the Iowas did experience some, ah, submarine properties and were not particularly stable as a platform for her guns. The 'wetter' a ship was and the greater her tendency to roll the harder it was to use the main armament to engage targets.
My money for a balanced battleship is Vanguard. By the USN's own postwar admission the Mk1 15" was the best all round gun, armour protection was good, seakeeping reasonable and as a gun platform pretty stable under most conditions. Thing is in HoI, as Vanguard used the turrets taken off Courageous and Glorious, you could realistically only build one of them!
We'll never know of course. Neither class were exposed to the classic capital ship encounter. Bismarck was extremely lucky in the Denmark Strait encounter in a similar way to Scharnhorst being very unlucky at North Cape, but look at Bismarck's gunnery in her encounter with KGV and Rodney it is pretty poor indeed.
Another issue is how to deal with the German limits on engaging ships armed with 15" guns that limited S and G on their early 1941 foray into the Atlantic. In two cases they broke off from attacking convoys due to the presence of an elderly British battleship: in the first instance Ramilles, the second Malaya. Particularly in the first case, when the captain of Gniesenau offered to draw off Ramilles so Scharnhorst could get at the convoys (Lutjens vetoed the idea) in HoI an elderly R class (whose unmodernised turrets limited the range of her 15" to less than the German's 11") would in no way limit any attack. In short Ramilles would have been toast. But the political orders issued to avoid the loss of prestige similar to that suffered when the Graf Spee went down took precedence.
Now, no HoI player would take this option. Indeed in HoI it is impossible. But it happened, and had the effect of hampering the Kriegsmarine in its operations. Can it be modelled? Should fascist countries suffer for such a loss of prestige that goes with the sinking of a warship? After all, 'Deutschland' became 'Lutzow' for a reason. The Democracies certainly did not suffer as much; as both the USN and RN had pretty significant losses with far less political impact.
There is no prestige in HoI, so I don't see how it can be modelled. Dissent is not the right variable.
I suppose it should be possible to script the German AI to use its surface forces sparingly and very cautious. But the player should not have such limits.
Very few of us realise with conviction the intensely unusual, unstable, complicated, unreliable, temporary nature of the economic organisation by which Western Europe has lived for the last half century. We assume some of the most peculiar and temporary of our late advantages as natural, permanent, and to be depended on, and we lay our plans accordingly. On this sandy and false foundation we scheme for social improvement and dress our political platforms, pursue our animosities and particular ambitions, and feel ourselves with enough margin in hand to foster, not assuage, civil conflict in the European family. Moved by insane delusion and reckless self-regard, the German people overturned the foundations on which we all lived and built.
John M. Keynes, 1919
The good guys always win, they don't win because they are good, they are good because they win.
Vanguard- 15in 1920lb shell 2575 fps range 32,500 yard range. 30 knot 17,000km endurance and 51,000 tons displaced.
Iowa- 16in 2700lb AP shell 2690 fps 41,627 yard range. 33 knot 24,000 km endurance and 45,000 tons disp.
The interesting thing about the 16in AP shell was that its penetrating power was nearly equivalent to the 18in AP shell. That mixed with superior range, speed, and naval radar- DEADLY. I never heard of a submarine effect prob on the Iowa class. The Iowa class didnt have many problems cause the service life was over 50 years. I just dont see the Vanguard class being the best on the block. Either way, the BB was a dying breed anyway.
I understand the whole prestige thing. I would say HOI simulates it by- using your ships in a careless manner... no more ships.
Well, now we actually build ships according to specifications, so if two ships have the same (optimal) values, they *are* the same ship, not just different ships corralled into a single category for game purposes.
However, the AI will certainly build according to historical specifications, plus I doubt that, given the variety of enemies, economies, technology and geography, there would still be a single clearly "optimal" design. Even if there was, I doubt many countries will be able to afford it, so it's not like your Argentinean navy will have any Bismarck clones in service.
In HoI2 ships from different nations share an abstract level (not class) and they have the same values based on that abstraction. A player knows they're equivalent, but not equal.Originally Posted by dagas
My fear with HoI3, with the ability to customize the ships, is that players and the AI will always build the biggest-and-best possible every time, so in practise that ability will result in every ship having the same guns, same engine, same hull, etc etc etc.
Perhaps, but we don't know how it will be.In HoI3 they have the potential to be different because it's unlikely that we will be able to research every category fully so perhaps Germany will focus in defense and speed while UK focus on guns and range or whatever they decide which means that the ships will be different.
Plus, in a system such as yours, and assuming the HoI2 rules on range continue to apply (Johan didn't say anything about changes there), no other characteristic but "range" would matter, so everyone would take it, unless gimping themselves on purpose, again creating an everyone-equal Navy.
I'll grant you the added choices for smaller economies, but if the AI builds according to history against game-mechanics we'd just have an AI programmed to shot it's own foot in all things Naval.Originally Posted by Alexander Seil
Although, if it matters, Iowa was far more handsome than the dumpier NCs...