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Thread: Development Diary #10 - 17th of December 2008

  1. #201
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Actually, Q3 of 2009 starts in July. Paradox also rarely misses release dates (I think a few weeks was the biggest gap).

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    Everyone's Comrade th3freakie's Avatar
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    Happy with the news about the Naval System - which even with it's HoI2 flaws has become my favourite part. Naval orders looks especially sweet.

    Still afraid the "moding ships" feature will mean every single battleship on the Planet built in 1940 is not only an abstract representation of the Bismark's battle capacity, but the actual Bismark, though... anyway, there's Hope!

    edit: no info about the whole "eternal CV distance" thing too...
    Last edited by th3freakie; 18-12-2008 at 18:49.

  3. #203
    Major Tyson_48's Avatar
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    Okay change release to "playable"

    No forgive me master of paradox



    I could imagine because HoI3 is the latest "real big" project paradox is developing, it is quite possible that they could miss the estimated release date.

    It is more challenging to develop a completely new game on a new engine (for the HoI-series) than a few expansions for existing titles.
    Nevertheless HoI is their best brand so i don't think they will release it on a status like EU or Rome has been released... (i hope so)

  4. #204
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by th3freakie View Post
    Still afraid the "moding ships" feature will mean every single battleship on the Planet built in 1940 is not only an abstract representation of the Bismark's battle capacity, but the actual Bismark, though... anyway, there's Hope!
    Ehh, isn't that the case in HoI2?

  5. #205
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyson_48 View Post
    Okay change release to "playable"

    No forgive me master of paradox



    I could imagine because HoI3 is the latest "real big" project paradox is developing, it is quite possible that they could miss the estimated release date.

    It is more challenging to develop a completely new game on a new engine (for the HoI-series) than a few expansions for existing titles.
    Nevertheless HoI is their best brand so i don't think they will release it on a status like EU or Rome has been released... (i hope so)
    Paradox, historically, never missed a release date by any considerable margin, and quite a few of these games were insanely complex (such as Victoria). In the end they always pick patching with community feedback over extending development time indefinitely (like most developers).

  6. #206
    Major Tyson_48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post
    Paradox, historically, never missed a release date by any considerable margin, and quite a few of these games were insanely complex (such as Victoria). In the end they always pick patching with community feedback over extending development time indefinitely (like most developers).
    I do hope so, i would love to see paradox announcing that they will release it sooner

    But with all those gameplay-additions and new concepts i won't be angry if they would missed the est. date...

    Of course if they are able to finish the game in Q3 2009 the more of my respect to them!

    Patches i think will definetly follow but i hope they won't have to be so deep as for EU3 to add playability...

  7. #207
    Everyone's Comrade th3freakie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post
    Ehh, isn't that the case in HoI2?
    Not at all. HoI2 abstractions leave loads of space for reality. You can have the Bismark and the KGV both sailing at the same time under the same category and still recognize them as the real Bismark and KGV.

    Now I'm afraid you'll know they are exact copies of each other, right down to the engine, guns, armour, etc, unless the player or the AI are deliberately limiting themselves.

  8. #208
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Everyone says that - "Yes, the next release will be playable out of the box!" Don't bank on it. People have been saying that since EU2, and patches were always essential (not mandatory, but essential to get everything you could out of the game).

    I'd be more afraid, by the way, that all the battleships would be copies of Iowa, rather than Bismarck

  9. #209
    Supreme Being aaaaburnHOI's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the hard work y'all are putting into HOI3. You guys know how to make a GREAT war game. The detail that is put into the game is much appreciated. I'm glad y'all are doing the dev diaries. I dont know how I'm going to last until HOI3 is sold.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post

    I'd be more afraid, by the way, that all the battleships would be copies of Iowa, rather than Bismarck
    Why? Poor gun platform and hardly a great seakeeper...

    K

  11. #211
    Supreme Being aaaaburnHOI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khevenhuller View Post
    Why? Poor gun platform and hardly a great seakeeper...K
    Iowa a poor gun platform? As obsolete ships go... The Iowa class of BB was far superior to the Bismarck class. Iowa class had superior radar, speed, armor, weapons to the Bismarck class.
    As a great seakeeper... not sure what you mean, but if you mean endurance- range is more than you think. If you mean sealane dominance- Carriers can control huge swaths of ocean, whereas the Iowa was limited to 32 miles or so.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by aaaaburnHOI View Post
    Iowa a poor gun platform? As obsolete ships go... The Iowa class of BB was far superior to the Bismarck class. Iowa class had superior radar, speed, armor, weapons to the Bismarck class.
    As a great seakeeper... not sure what you mean, but if you mean endurance- range is more than you think. If you mean sealane dominance- Carriers can control huge swaths of ocean, whereas the Iowa was limited to 32 miles or so.

    Well as the US had been building ships throughout the 20's and 30's, and the Iowas were at the end of a line of development, whereas Bismarck was based on the old WWI Bayern hull (hence the poor underwater protection and weakness in terms of shock damage) I would be most surprised if it were otherwise.

    As for seakeeping, the Iowas did experience some, ah, submarine properties and were not particularly stable as a platform for her guns. The 'wetter' a ship was and the greater her tendency to roll the harder it was to use the main armament to engage targets.

    My money for a balanced battleship is Vanguard. By the USN's own postwar admission the Mk1 15" was the best all round gun, armour protection was good, seakeeping reasonable and as a gun platform pretty stable under most conditions. Thing is in HoI, as Vanguard used the turrets taken off Courageous and Glorious, you could realistically only build one of them!

    We'll never know of course. Neither class were exposed to the classic capital ship encounter. Bismarck was extremely lucky in the Denmark Strait encounter in a similar way to Scharnhorst being very unlucky at North Cape, but look at Bismarck's gunnery in her encounter with KGV and Rodney it is pretty poor indeed.

    Another issue is how to deal with the German limits on engaging ships armed with 15" guns that limited S and G on their early 1941 foray into the Atlantic. In two cases they broke off from attacking convoys due to the presence of an elderly British battleship: in the first instance Ramilles, the second Malaya. Particularly in the first case, when the captain of Gniesenau offered to draw off Ramilles so Scharnhorst could get at the convoys (Lutjens vetoed the idea) in HoI an elderly R class (whose unmodernised turrets limited the range of her 15" to less than the German's 11") would in no way limit any attack. In short Ramilles would have been toast. But the political orders issued to avoid the loss of prestige similar to that suffered when the Graf Spee went down took precedence.

    Now, no HoI player would take this option. Indeed in HoI it is impossible. But it happened, and had the effect of hampering the Kriegsmarine in its operations. Can it be modelled? Should fascist countries suffer for such a loss of prestige that goes with the sinking of a warship? After all, 'Deutschland' became 'Lutzow' for a reason. The Democracies certainly did not suffer as much; as both the USN and RN had pretty significant losses with far less political impact.

    K

  13. #213
    Everyone's Comrade th3freakie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khevenhuller View Post
    Now, no HoI player would take this option. Indeed in HoI it is impossible. But it happened, and had the effect of hampering the Kriegsmarine in its operations. Can it be modelled? Should fascist countries suffer for such a loss of prestige that goes with the sinking of a warship? After all, 'Deutschland' became 'Lutzow' for a reason. The Democracies certainly did not suffer as much; as both the USN and RN had pretty significant losses with far less political impact.

    K
    Me likes that idea!

  14. #214
    There is no prestige in HoI, so I don't see how it can be modelled. Dissent is not the right variable.

    I suppose it should be possible to script the German AI to use its surface forces sparingly and very cautious. But the player should not have such limits.
    Very few of us realise with conviction the intensely unusual, unstable, complicated, unreliable, temporary nature of the economic organisation by which Western Europe has lived for the last half century. We assume some of the most peculiar and temporary of our late advantages as natural, permanent, and to be depended on, and we lay our plans accordingly. On this sandy and false foundation we scheme for social improvement and dress our political platforms, pursue our animosities and particular ambitions, and feel ourselves with enough margin in hand to foster, not assuage, civil conflict in the European family. Moved by insane delusion and reckless self-regard, the German people overturned the foundations on which we all lived and built.
    John M. Keynes, 1919

  15. #215
    Colonel dagas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by th3freakie View Post
    Not at all. HoI2 abstractions leave loads of space for reality. You can have the Bismark and the KGV both sailing at the same time under the same category and still recognize them as the real Bismark and KGV.

    Now I'm afraid you'll know they are exact copies of each other, right down to the engine, guns, armour, etc, unless the player or the AI are deliberately limiting themselves.
    I don't understand. In HoI2 two ships from different nations are identical as long as they have the same class. In HoI3 they have the potential to be different because it's unlikely that we will be able to research every category fully so perhaps Germany will focus in defense and speed while UK focus on guns and range or whatever they decide which means that the ships will be different. So it's in HoI2 they are exact copies not HoI3.
    The good guys always win, they don't win because they are good, they are good because they win.

  16. #216
    Supreme Being aaaaburnHOI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khevenhuller View Post
    As for seakeeping, the Iowas did experience some, ah, submarine properties and were not particularly stable as a platform for her guns. The 'wetter' a ship was and the greater her tendency to roll the harder it was to use the main armament to engage targets.
    My money for a balanced battleship is Vanguard. By the USN's own postwar admission the Mk1 15" was the best all round gun, armour protection was good, seakeeping reasonable and as a gun platform pretty stable under most conditions. Thing is in HoI, as Vanguard used the turrets taken off Courageous and Glorious, you could realistically only build one of them!
    We'll never know of course. Neither class were exposed to the classic capital ship encounter.
    Now, no HoI player would take this option. Indeed in HoI it is impossible. But it happened, and had the effect of hampering the Kriegsmarine in its operations. Can it be modelled? Should fascist countries suffer for such a loss of prestige that goes with the sinking of a warship? After all, 'Deutschland' became 'Lutzow' for a reason. The Democracies certainly did not suffer as much; as both the USN and RN had pretty significant losses with far less political impact.
    K
    Your right about BB-BB encounters being limited. I dont believe that is the only test of how good something is though. I compared the stats of a Iowa and Vanguard BB and there are some major differences that do make the Iowa a better BB IMO.
    Vanguard- 15in 1920lb shell 2575 fps range 32,500 yard range. 30 knot 17,000km endurance and 51,000 tons displaced.
    Iowa- 16in 2700lb AP shell 2690 fps 41,627 yard range. 33 knot 24,000 km endurance and 45,000 tons disp.
    The interesting thing about the 16in AP shell was that its penetrating power was nearly equivalent to the 18in AP shell. That mixed with superior range, speed, and naval radar- DEADLY. I never heard of a submarine effect prob on the Iowa class. The Iowa class didnt have many problems cause the service life was over 50 years. I just dont see the Vanguard class being the best on the block. Either way, the BB was a dying breed anyway.

    I understand the whole prestige thing. I would say HOI simulates it by- using your ships in a careless manner... no more ships.

  17. #217
    Supreme Being aaaaburnHOI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dagas View Post
    I don't understand. In HoI2 two ships from different nations are identical as long as they have the same class. In HoI3 they have the potential to be different because it's unlikely that we will be able to research every category fully so perhaps Germany will focus in defense and speed while UK focus on guns and range or whatever they decide which means that the ships will be different. So it's in HoI2 they are exact copies not HoI3.
    This is why HOI3 is gonna ROCK!!

  18. #218
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dagas View Post
    I don't understand. In HoI2 two ships from different nations are identical as long as they have the same class. In HoI3 they have the potential to be different because it's unlikely that we will be able to research every category fully so perhaps Germany will focus in defense and speed while UK focus on guns and range or whatever they decide which means that the ships will be different. So it's in HoI2 they are exact copies not HoI3.
    You don't understand the nuance of his argument - within a HoI2 "model," there were many real-life ships, it's just that their individual characteristics were abstracted.

    Well, now we actually build ships according to specifications, so if two ships have the same (optimal) values, they *are* the same ship, not just different ships corralled into a single category for game purposes.

    However, the AI will certainly build according to historical specifications, plus I doubt that, given the variety of enemies, economies, technology and geography, there would still be a single clearly "optimal" design. Even if there was, I doubt many countries will be able to afford it, so it's not like your Argentinean navy will have any Bismarck clones in service.

  19. #219
    Everyone's Comrade th3freakie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanza View Post
    There is no prestige in HoI, so I don't see how it can be modelled. Dissent is not the right variable.
    You have a militarist regime that boasts it's mighty warships. One of them sinks in combat. People think you might suck as a ruler. Makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by dagas
    I don't understand. In HoI2 two ships from different nations are identical as long as they have the same class.
    In HoI2 ships from different nations share an abstract level (not class) and they have the same values based on that abstraction. A player knows they're equivalent, but not equal.
    My fear with HoI3, with the ability to customize the ships, is that players and the AI will always build the biggest-and-best possible every time, so in practise that ability will result in every ship having the same guns, same engine, same hull, etc etc etc.

    In HoI3 they have the potential to be different because it's unlikely that we will be able to research every category fully so perhaps Germany will focus in defense and speed while UK focus on guns and range or whatever they decide which means that the ships will be different.
    Perhaps, but we don't know how it will be.
    Plus, in a system such as yours, and assuming the HoI2 rules on range continue to apply (Johan didn't say anything about changes there), no other characteristic but "range" would matter, so everyone would take it, unless gimping themselves on purpose, again creating an everyone-equal Navy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil
    However, the AI will certainly build according to historical specifications, plus I doubt that, given the variety of enemies, economies, technology and geography, there would still be a single clearly "optimal" design.
    I'll grant you the added choices for smaller economies, but if the AI builds according to history against game-mechanics we'd just have an AI programmed to shot it's own foot in all things Naval.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by aaaaburnHOI View Post
    Your right about BB-BB encounters being limited. I dont believe that is the only test of how good something is though. I compared the stats of a Iowa and Vanguard BB and there are some major differences that do make the Iowa a better BB IMO.
    Vanguard- 15in 1920lb shell 2575 fps range 32,500 yard range. 30 knot 17,000km endurance and 51,000 tons displaced.
    Iowa- 16in 2700lb AP shell 2690 fps 41,627 yard range. 33 knot 24,000 km endurance and 45,000 tons disp.
    The interesting thing about the 16in AP shell was that its penetrating power was nearly equivalent to the 18in AP shell. That mixed with superior range, speed, and naval radar- DEADLY. I never heard of a submarine effect prob on the Iowa class. The Iowa class didnt have many problems cause the service life was over 50 years. I just dont see the Vanguard class being the best on the block. Either way, the BB was a dying breed anyway.

    I understand the whole prestige thing. I would say HOI simulates it by- using your ships in a careless manner... no more ships.
    Personally I think the Iowas presented a poor bargain as compared to Vanguard, indeed compared to the preceding North Carolinas. There was no improvement in armament over NC, and to achieve the very high theoretical speed of 33kt an enormous amount of space had to be devoted to machinery and they had to be 200 feet longer. In poor weather Vanguard, with her more seaworthy hull, was more than capable of keeping up with Iowa, whilst armour was thicker, particularly on the deck. Because Iowa was so large her protection was in many cases less than NC. Though far better as ships than the cumbersome and clunky Yamato class, personally I feel that the Iowas were inferior to both Vanguard and NC, despite the older guns on the former and the lower speed on the latter.

    Although, if it matters, Iowa was far more handsome than the dumpier NCs...

    K

    Alth

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