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Thread: Democracy's Last Legs: A US - UK DAIM AAR

  1. #1081
    Lt. General humancalculator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarianoV View Post
    *Paragraph*
    Excellent synopsis, and I beleive, {LD}Firestorm, that if you can't destroy the Germans, you should create an event for this.

    oh, and your English was good BTW.
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  2. #1082
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    Ah yes, don not worry. I already have an event coded for both victory and defeat. Well, they are many events that is It was as if he went into my event database and stole my codes!

    I thank all of you for your input. I take great pride in knowing people are enjoying my AAR!

    And yes, true to my daily nature, another update in a few hours Once I make supper and eat it, I will come here and post it.

    For those who wish to see this go past 1964, I shall not disappoint. I do intend on continuing this game for as long as possible. Though the 'Cold War' might be boring to some, I will try and make it as fun as possible when it reaches that point. And all your posts on what the postwar world may look like gives me great ideas on how I may achieve that.


    edit: MarianoV, your English is very good. It was so good, I did not even think that it was not your first language. I understood it very well. I'm glad you like my AAR.
    Democracy's Last Legs - USA / UK DAIM After-action report - Finished
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  3. #1083
    Corporal nefftron's Avatar

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    Oh, should be fun. That said, I'd prefer to see you triumph in this war. Please don't do anything silly like inserting your own plot point about a revolution as a way to get an armistice by event; only make peace if you've actually lost the war. Quite frankly, the beauty of this AAR comes from seeing skilled players give their all against a challenging AI in a war that literally has spanned the whole globe and had repeated momentum swings; I don't want to see a Cold War scenario lose this dynamic. It's absolutely incredible to follow as it is.

  4. #1084
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    Based on what you've seen so far, do you really think I would go do that?


    The only way I will is if it happens as you say, where the outcome is already determined for defeat (aka the loss of my entire army). Now, that is the most extreme case and very unlikely to happen, so don't expect an armistice with Germany unless that happens.

    That being said, if Germany did throw us out of Europe, you can be sure their population nor mine would allow for a continuation of the war.

    Also, I would only include a Cold War-esque continuation if I can make it entertaining enough for one.
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  5. #1085
    Corporal nefftron's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by {LD}Firestorm View Post

    That being said, if Germany did throw us out of Europe, you can be sure their population nor mine would allow for a continuation of the war.
    This is what I'm referring to. Honestly, the joy of this AAR comes from the incredible quality of the gameplay; don't end the war because of some sort of desire for historical realism. In any case, I'd be inclined to disagree, since the war has gone on for so long it's probably become something of an institution. The war and the dream of eventual victory in it is all that the population has left in much of the world; the conflict has likely taken on religious and apocalyptic qualities. If the war has gone on this long after all the casualties and defeats you've seen, there's no way popular sentiment alone would end it.

  6. #1086
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    As you will see in my next news post (writing it as we speak), you will see that dissent in my home provinces is becoming...a problem.
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  7. #1087
    I agree with nefftron: the beauty from this AAR comes from quality of the gameplay involved. You should strive for victory until the end! As I said in my previous post, the (possible) outcome of an armistice is not precisely nice... so it should be avoided at all costs. I disagree with nefftron when it comes to the will of the people to carry on fighting (I honestly think everyone is tired of the war by now). But what inspired my previous post is not a concern for historical realism... the game is much more fun as it is right now . Rather, it's the fact that IF they are expelled from Europe, I really can't see any way of them winning in-game, at least for many years, so I thought that a nice way of ending a superb AAR would be simulating an armistice, instead of an inconclusive, un-winnable war dragging on for years and years.

  8. #1088
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    BBC Home and Forces Program – July 23rd, 1952

    July 23rd, 1952

    BBC Home and Forces Program

    "This is the BBC home and forces program. This is Bruce Belfrage. The central regions of the German front have been receiving heavy pressure as Allied forces attempt to stem the German army’s advances. The German city of Gottingen has been recaptured by the German army, which managed to push as far as Erfurt by the 21st."

    "In Italy, Allied forces have retaken the key supply port of La Spezia from the Italian-German forces stationed there. This success means that much needed supplies and reinforcements can reach the front quicker and easier. Just south of Italy, in Africa, Allied divisions have driven off several attacks by two German panzer divisions along the coast. This has brought temporary stability to the region, which has allowed Algerian militia to form a significant defensive network in the area."

    "The United States is facing political turmoil not seen since the American Civil War. Populations, disgruntled with the direction of the war, the massive loss of life sustained in nuclear attacks, and the massive cuts in rations and civilian supplies, have taken up arms against the current government. Canadian divisions from Ottawa have been called to support the small American home guard to quell the rebellions, which have taken place in four locations across the country. To add to the increased dissenting populations, some local politicians are supporting the rebellion against the seated government. They are pushing for an end to the war and the bloodshed it continues to bring."














    **I know, not a long news post. I've been trying to study for my finals which are this week and next. It is hard to think creatively when you have numbers and physics formulas on the mind **
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  9. #1089
    Lt. General Raaritsgozilla's Avatar
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    At least you have a link up now yay
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  10. #1090
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    Crap, I forgot to size down my pictures. I will get right on that >_<
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  11. #1091
    Lt. General Sirveri's Avatar
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    I'd probably hit Oppeln, it's core, and has the best combo of MP + IC you can get. Munich has less MP, less IC (unless they built more), and less strat resources.

    Oh, and if your dissent goes much higher you've got a shot at going fascist.

    How cool would THAT be! Might really screw up the ideal of the AAR though, since you'd no longer be a democracy, and the UK is trashed. Democracy would likely parish from the face of the earth.

    You're about 5 points of dissent from losing the game. Hope that the Russians don't have an ICBM and nuke sitting around waiting for you.
    Last edited by Sirveri; 23-04-2009 at 11:32.
    yay, screwed over again!

  12. #1092
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    Looks like the fight in Europe is still in the balance. No need to retreat to the Rhine yet. Although if you do make sure not to do it too late

    52.9% dissent... wow... that's awful. However you can enjoy the thought that this will eventually hit Germany, too.

    I have made some thoughts about what the war aims should be at this point... just to give you all some food for thought...

    German war aims as of 1952
    =====================
    The war so far saw the Reich victorious on many fronts. Western Europe was conquered, Britain invaded, and most importantly operation Barbarossa led to the crushing of the Bolshevik threat for a long time, and to the occupation of western Russia all the way to the Ural. These immense territorial gains allowed Germany to become the undisputed master of the western Eurasian continent. It also allowed Germany to build fleets capable of defending the European coastlines against the badly beaten Anglo-Saxon powers and their navies. The Bolshevik rump state, despite recovering alarmingly well behind the Urals, has not pursued a policy of revanchism yet and abides by the peace terms that the OKW dictated.

    However the Anglo-Saxon powers have by now managed to come back and have retaken the British isles. While these were never meant to be more than an outpost of the Greater German Reich, the subsequent invasion of the European continent by strong Anglo-Saxon armies have led to massive losses of men and material, of the occupation of western Europe by the Anglo-Saxons and by the hostile exile regimes. Most importantly they have occupied large parts of western and central Germany and their raid against the Reich capital, while only temporary, gave them enough time to find and destroy the installations of project Valhalla. The exchange of thermonuclear attacks caused immense destruction to German cities so far but these attacks have not caused critical damage to the German military-industrial complex which relies greatly on the industrial works of the German provinces east of the Elbe and those in occupied eastern Europe.

    While at this point the military struggle on land is still undecided, with an advantage on the Axis side due to the availability of still large minor Axis auxillary forces, and the opportunistic Bolshevik attack on the Anglo-Saxon client states in Asia, the long term balance is dangerously in favor of the Anglo-Saxons and their allies. Continuation of the thermonuclear warfare without the ability to strike back against British isles and the American continent would even eventually lead to a critical deterioration of the Reich's war making capability, defections of the minor Axis allies, and eventually a general insurrection of the Slavic populations. Their afforts are without a doubt aimed at ending the Reich's hegemony over the European peoples and resources and inciting the conquered peoples into a fury of revenge that would destroy the Reich and also the Germanic nations.

    The only way to prevent this unacceptable outcome is to end the land war in Europe in favor of the Reich. The Anglo-Saxon will to continue the war has been shaken by the last thermonuclear offensive and will not survive a large scale reversal on the most important land front, the central German one.

    However any armistice must leave the Reich strong enough to maintain a military strong enough to be a deterrent to a new war with the Anglo-Saxons, and to ensure its continued dominance over central and eastern Europe. Without the material and human resources of those areas the Reich will be powerless to resist Anglo-Saxon threats and will eventually be forced into submission and unconditional capitulation. The Reich must also be capable of maintaining a thermonuclear deterrent against both the Anglo-Saxons and the Bolshevik rump state behind the Urals.

    So the following points are non-negotiable in any armistice:
    • withdrawal of all hostile forces from Reich territory
    • restoration of Italy to all its provinces on the European continent and the outlying islands
    • withdrawal of all hostile Anglo-Saxon forces from Greater Sweden
    • no Anglo-saxon interference with the affairs of the Reich in central and eastern Europe

    The following points should be pressed as hard as possible, as concessions in this area would greatly improve the Reich's strategic situation in a post-armistice world:
    • restoration of the pro-german Greater Swedish government to all of Scandinavia
    • neutralization of the states bordering the Reich in the west, or the setup of suitable buffer states where none exist yet (Wallonia, Burgundy, Lombardia)
    • restoration of Italy to its colonial posessions in Libya and eastern Africa
    • neutralization of the North Sea due to its vital importance for maritime trade

    The following points are contingent upon the military success of the Wehrmacht in the western offensive
    • restoration of the Reich protectorate over the Netherlands, Flanders and Wallonia
    • Neutralization of the mediterranean, and dismantling of the Anglo-Saxon naval bases at Malta and Gibraltar (the Reich could offer a neutralization of its naval bases at Spitzbergen and Trondheim in exchange)
    • neutralization and de-militarization of the French state, and extradition of General De Gaulle to the Reich for trial regarding war crimes
    • neutralization of central Africa and a guarantee of equal rights of Allied and Axis powers to the exploitation of the material resources

    In the event of an unfavorable outcome of the western offensive, a restoration of the pre-war Reich border in the west could be offered. Also a neutralization of Italy and the overthrow of the Italian fascist party could be tolerated since Italy is not of vital importance to the security of the Greater Reich and its territories in the east. However the eastern coast of the Adriatic sea must remain under Axis control. This should not pose a problem since the Croatian state maintains a credible claim to those territories.
    In the worst case the Rhine could be offered as an armistice border, with a demilitarized zone extending 200 km west of the river, and the resettlement of the German Rhineland population to the eastern living spaces. While this would cause immense damage to the industries and resources of the Reich, not to mention the propaganda damage, it would not pose a danger to the continued dominance of the Reich over the rest of central Europe. This and this only must be supreme goal in any armistice negotiations.

    Of course the supreme goal for Wehrmacht operations in Europe should be the restoration of German hegemony all the way to the straits of Gibraltar, the exclusion of Allied forces from the Mediterranean sea, North Africa and western Asia, and the gaining of suitable military bases to establish an irressitible thermonuclear threat against the British isles. Achievement of such goals would allow the Reich to negotiate an armistice with the Anglo-Saxon powers from a position of unchallenged strength, and deal with the Bolshevik rump state at a time of the Führers' choosing. However the above outlined positions should form suitable intermediate steps, or -if success on the expected magnitude should elude the German armed forces- a basis for armistice negotiation with the Anglo-Saxon powers.
    Last edited by Leviathan07; 23-04-2009 at 18:22.

  13. #1093
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    And this would be the war aims of the Allied powers...

    War aims of the Allied Powers as of 1952
    ===============================
    The first phase of the war saw the triumph of German arms on all fronts. The defeat of France and the occupation of Britain saw Germany unchallenged in the west for long enough to attack and destroy the Soviet Union. The subsequent armistice between Stalin gave Hitler an empire of his own, stretching from the Atlantic to the Urals, and containing all the resources to fuel his insatiable lust for war. Japan opportunistically joined the war when Allied fortunes were at their lowest point, and seized vast parts of Asia for themselves. However Allied counteroffensives saw the reconquest of Britain, and the halting of the Japanese offensive in Asia. Peripheral theatres of war were opened up against the Axis powers to sap their strength and gain favorable positions for the inevitable turning of the tide. Japan eventually collapsed under Allied pressure, and freedom could be restored to the Japanese-oppressed peoples of Asia. In 1947 operation Overlord saw the landing of Allied armies in occupied France, which at the time was thought to be one of the last steps leading to the total defeat of Germany.

    Since then however, the fortunes of war have once again hung precariously in the balance. Germany had used the years of unchallenged rule over the European continent to build a military unseen so far in the history of human wafare. Battles in France and at the Rhine saw Allied forces victorious, but the blood toll was staggering. Also, the Nazi regime used the time bought by the defensive battles in France and at the West Wall to turn germany in an armed camp, its cities bristling with concrete fortifications, its every hill dotted with obstacles and artillery. The Allied powers, overestimating their military advantage, launched their nuclear weapons against what they thought to be the last strongholds of German military might, hoping to break through and quickly end the war. These efforts turned out to be for naught, as the Germans quickly plugged the gaps blown into their lines by these fearsome weapons with unbloodied reserves from own allies. Unable to decisively beat the Wehrmacht, the war bogged down into a stalemate of epic proportions, leaving much of central German and northern Italy wrecked and millions dead but the Axis militaries unbroken.

    Eventually the stalemate was broken by two reversals, which together caused uncounted tears and put at risk all the gains made by the Allied powers. In summer of 1951, the Soviet Union, through their proxies in North Korea, initiated a war of their own against the Allied powers. Out of still unclear motives, they attacked on all fronts from Persia to India and China, and have so far pushed deep on all fronts. Frantic measures are being taken to arm the newly freed but still exhausted peoples of Asia against the new threat.

    The even worse reversal came from Germany. Unbeknownst to the Allied powers, German scientists had managed to build their own nuclear weapons. And the Nazi high command had in their deviousness hatched to a most barbaric plan: By holding back from retaliation against the Allied nuclear strikes, the German high command managed to assemble a large stockpile of their own warheads. And when they decided the time had come, they unleashed their own thermonuclear offensive, hoping to reverse the fortunes of war yet again: Within thirteen days, seven major cities in Britain and America were destroyed by hydrogen bombs carried on long range rockets and bombers. The loss of civilian life was unprecedented. In their desparation the Allied powers retaliated in kind, and until winter five more cities, four of them in Germany, were incinerated by nuclear fire. The hopes of both sides for a quick end to the war were literally turned to ashes, and neither side was left with a lasting advantage. Since then, both sides sought to wreak maximal havoc on the other side, by relentlessly attacking on all land fronts, leaving the Allied armies the worse for wear but victory still eludes both belligerents. A possibly critical success was achieved when a combined British-Spanish raid broke through the depleted defenses of the German capital, manned by Hungarian auxillary troops. No thought was given to a lasting defense of this scarred city, as the strategic situation was decidedly against the Allied powers and other sections of the front were already in retreat, but demolition teams managed to destroy all installations of the German nuclear project in the few days they held the German capitol. Since then the Allied forces have steadily withdrawn back across the Elbe river and towards the Rhine, and now one knows how long the war will still continue.

    Given this situation, the Allied powers recognize these aims as being the purpose of continued war against the Axis and Soviet powers:

    Germany brought this war upon the world, through reckless aggression and blatant disregard for human life. It could achieve its present position of power because the fortunes of the war gave it unrestriced access to the resources of all of Europe, and security behind which a titanic military force could be built. The war fought by the Allied powers therefore aims at destroying the German position of strength and, by removing those resources from her access which allowed it to achieve the position of strength, at creating a lasting peace by preventing Germany from ever again posing a threat to peace and security in Europe and the world.

    A cessation of warfare in Europe must therefore be conditional upon the following, non-negotiable aims:
    • Germany occupation of western Europe, Scandinavia, the middle east and north Africa must end, and free and democratic governments must be restored to the nations of these regions.
    • Germany must cease all assistance rendered to the Soviet Union and its war of aggression against the United Nations.
    • Germany must cease all assistance rendered to the fascist states of South American, and their war of aggression against the United Nations.
    • Germany must give up all of its naval, aerial and strategic forces capable of threatening the United Nations, their allies, the new democratic nations in the regions still occupied by her military forces and the nations at war with the Soviet Union and her allies

    The following war aims are to be pressed against Germany and her allies to achieve the greatest possible security of the United Nations and her principal members against Axis aggression:
    • The lands east of the Rhine should be denied to Germany as far as the Elbe river and the Baltic sea by military means. After the conclusion of the war
      these should be denied to Germany by occupation and removal of the German speaking population to lands out of reach of the Reich. A transfer of Allied held territory back to German control should only be allowed in exchange for Allied lands under control of German forces if such exist.
    • Italy is to be defeated and her lands to be secured up to the Alps and the Carinthian mountains, as well as bridgeheads on the eastern Adriatic coast for future infiltration of the Balkans
    • German domination over central and eastern Europe is to be challenged by removing from her possession those means by which the eastern European populations are currently enslaved. For obvious reasons this means the destruction of as much of the German military as possible. It also means the removal of German speaking populations from reach of the German government, since settlement of German populations in non-german territories forms the principal method by which the German government hopes to achieve a lasting domination over eastern Europe. To this point, the removal of German civilian populations should not wait until the cessation of hostilities, but should begin immediately in all areas under Allied control.
    • German political domination over the minor axis nations of eastern Europe is to be challenged by removing those military and economic means by which this domination is currently upheld. This means the destruction of German thermonuclear weaponry and delivery systems, the denial to Germany of those resources which could serve to rebuild the destroyed facilities in Berlin. These are primarily the uranium mines in Saxony, which are to be demolished, poisoned by chemical and biological weapons, and flooded with ground water. It also means the denial to Germany of those industries by which it dominates trade with its allies. Conventional strategic warfare would serve this purpose, although it is recognized that delivery of strategic weapons and achievement of aerial superiority is at the moment the more pressing concern.
    • The minor Axis powers provide substantial assistance to the German war effort. Where possibly, military operations should seek to destroy their own war making potential by raiding or permanently occupying their homelands. Sweden, Switzerland and -if a land offensive succeeds in breaking a part of the German front line- Hungary are the most readily accessible axis minor powers.

    The following aims are conditional upon military success in the central german theatre of operations (CGTOO):
    • German control over its homeland is to be challenged as far east as possible. This conflicts with the aim of attacking minor axis nations. However if the conduct of the war allows for large scale maneuvers and exploitation of break throughs in the CGTOO, raids with the aim of removing or destroying industrial installations, destroying mines permanently and removing German civilian populations to the west should be regarded as a viable method of warfare. Even if the fortunes of war do not allow for a complete defeat of the Axis powers, a permanent weakening of the German state and its war machine should be sought out. The destruction of as much of the German homeland as possible would contribute greatly to this aim.
    • Insurrections in the lands occupied by german forces are to be expected upon a weakening of the German war machine. The most likely -and most important- areas would be Poland and western Russia. Even if the liberation of Poland would turn out to be beyond the capabilities of the Allied armies, all possible assistance is to be rendered to the Polish resistance, including the targeted bombing of garrison units in Poland.
    • Western Russia is as of now the area of German control which is farthest removed from Allied reach. It is the area where Nazi Germany harvests the resources that enable it to continue its resistance to the Allied armies. While it is desirable to weaken German control and thus hinder german resource extraction and recruitment efforts, it is presently not desirable to have this area fall under control of the Soviet Union for it would render to the Soviets far greater help than it presently does to the German war machine, resulting in no net gain for the Allied cause. For this reason, operations against occupied Russia are to be given the lowest priority, except in such areas where viable Allied-friendly governments can be established. If the other, above stated war aims aimed at weakening the german war machine can be achieved, then it would be an acceptable outcome of the war if Germany was left in control of occupied Russia. The Elbe-Rhine-Baltic region, presently the CGTOO, should form a sufficient buffer zone against German aggression if sufficiently depopulated and denied to permanent German control.

    Of course the ultimate war aim of the Allied powers and the United Nations should be the complete, and unconditional defeat of Germany and her Allies, and the restoration of peace and pre-1951 boundaries with the Soviet Union. The fate of Germany in this case would not need to be total deopulation although steps should be taken to remove 10%-33% of German population permanently from central Europe, possibly to the British and French colonies in Africa. If a cordon sanitaire can be established against the Soviet state in eastern Europe, by setting up friendly regimes from Finland to the Caucasus, Germany need not be a problem and control over its territory and remaining populations could be turned over to the neighbouring states and to Britain. However since at present it is not viable to make such an optimistic prognosis of the progress of Allied arms in Europe, the above outlined war aims should form the basis of any cessation of the war by diplomatic means.
    Last edited by Leviathan07; 23-04-2009 at 18:06.

  14. #1094
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    Considering the amount of money you have, have you considered giving Metropolitan France back to France via the open negotiations option? As someone already pointed out they should have a few hundred manpower so if they can get their capital back to Europe then you'll have around 100 more divisions (possibly some armour and air too). Needless to say, that would be invaluable to the war effort.

    Also, you seem to have almost all of mainland Italy under your control. Would they be willing to be your puppet in exchange for their country back?
    "Anything written in quotation marks followed by a well-known name always sounds profound" ~ Thatguy.

  15. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Considering the amount of money you have, have you considered giving Metropolitan France back to France via the open negotiations option? As someone already pointed out they should have a few hundred manpower so if they can get their capital back to Europe then you'll have around 100 more divisions (possibly some armour and air too). Needless to say, that would be invaluable to the war effort.

    Also, you seem to have almost all of mainland Italy under your control. Would they be willing to be your puppet in exchange for their country back?
    I think he mentioned that France has immense supply troubles and can't properly supply forces on its territories.

  16. #1096
    Major Windmolen's Avatar
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    This must truly be the grimmest AAR ever

    That dissent percentage... ugh... At what rates does it go down?

  17. #1097
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    @Leviathan07: Great stuff there. It was a good read. It was a great summary of past events. Mind if I link to it on the front page?

    @thatguy: Leviathan answered that. Also, I cannot give occupied lands (except Vichy lands) back to France. It claims it belongs to the legal owner Germany iirc.

    @Windmolen: Depends. If I put the most IC I can on it, -0.22 / day. As it stands, about 0.05 -> 0.10 / day. I still need to supply my armies. If you notice, my manpower is going up. I don't have enough IC to put IC on reinforcments.
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  18. #1098
    Colonel General_Hoth's Avatar
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    So oyu can't make an event or something for france???
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  19. #1099
    Wastrel DeSota's Avatar
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    I have to wonder....what if Germany had used those three extra nukes on the US instead of their own territory? That probably would have ended the war. If they used that one they wasted on the UK on the US too, it would be a certainty.

  20. #1100
    Field Marshal
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    Well, it were UK forces which raided Berlin end put an end to the german nuke program, so the US is not the only enemy the germans are facing.

    Fire, Tommy, what is the ratio of US to UK troops in the central german theatre of operations? And how much is allied forces?

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