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Thread: Democracy's Last Legs: A US - UK DAIM AAR

  1. #1861
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    Quote Originally Posted by rule_them_all View Post
    but then again, think about the nuclear winter, and the contamination of food provoked by radiation, along to smaller productions of food. that should have killed some 100 million people after a 14 years total war.
    in the 50s the population was around 3 billion, in this timeline it should be around 2.4-2.3 billions.
    Considering that the USA has performed 1000+ nuclear weapons tests and the USSR has performed 715, I severly doubt that these 20-30 nuclear strike would have caused a signifigant ammount of fallout. Especially not enough to cause nuclear winter.
    yay, screwed over again!

  2. #1862
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    frigidmagi-You are forgetting here that noone forced America into the war with Germany and it is their own fought that they got their ass kicked. If that radio should shit on somone, then it is the opressive American government which kept the war going no matter what. From a real point view, america isnt a democractic nation anymore but just another oppresive government (When fighting a monster watch out that you yourself dont become one).

    If Germany wanted it could easily continue the war, by boming america. Its not as they would have to fully commit them to the struggle, but they would seriously hurt, the even so runied america. And even so we are not talking here about any nation, but we are talking about the third reich. If they were able to take on the world and acctualy win, why should there be a problem coninuning a war, with a minor nusience as america. So i see no reason for Germany to pece out with usa, under seemingly NO CONDITIONS (White peace).

  3. #1863
    Germany probably peaced out with the USA because the US was begging and the Germans recognised just how many people would be killed from their already destroyed population.
    I think even if you are winning after a 14 year total war you might be a bit restless. The German populace probably wouldn't want to continue the war for even more time, they would want to have peace so they could recuperate from a war that has shattered their economy.

  4. #1864
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    Quote Originally Posted by C'est Moi View Post
    Germany probably peaced out with the USA because the US was begging and the Germans recognised just how many people would be killed from their already destroyed population.
    I think even if you are winning after a 14 year total war you might be a bit restless. The German populace probably wouldn't want to continue the war for even more time, they would want to have peace so they could recuperate from a war that has shattered their economy.
    If you beg for pece you have to offer something to the enemy
    right? But since this isnt true the theory you propose cant be right. Germany could continue this war for years.

  5. #1865
    I don't see how Germany could continue the war against the U.S. As Firestorm stated, the U.S. Navy was (is?) still a going concern for any overseas aggressor. Also at time of peace, America still had its reactors. Soviets were also a potential concern once more. The Peace made sense.

    Germany won, but only in name. Germany's industrial heartland was gutted if not utterly destroyed, a number of its major cities wiped off the map, and while it might not be well represented in game, it's going to take a long time before Germany has a logistics network even approaching it's prewar capabilities.

    Presumably, the promised land to the east that everyone's talking about is filled with angry partisans and very much a wreck from the German invasion in the first place. I doubt very much Germany had the time and the resources to really rebuild it during the war (again, more of a role-play point than in game, perhaps). And has been noted, how much of the population was able to get there - and become productive - is unlikely to be very much, due to the priorities of the trains.

    Germany's best bet is to let America implode, at most doing what they're doing by quietly supporting the rebels. They have many bigger problems, like how they are going to stay masters of what they already control, instead of trying to wage war thousands of miles from the closest friendly port. Even if America wins, they won't be a threat to Germany for a very long time.

  6. #1866
    Banned Delex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadVlad View Post
    I don't see how Germany could continue the war against the U.S. As Firestorm stated, the U.S. Navy was (is?) still a going concern for any overseas aggressor. Also at time of peace, America still had its reactors. Soviets were also a potential concern once more. The Peace made sense.

    Germany won, but only in name. Germany's industrial heartland was gutted if not utterly destroyed, a number of its major cities wiped off the map, and while it might not be well represented in game, it's going to take a long time before Germany has a logistics network even approaching it's prewar capabilities.

    Presumably, the promised land to the east that everyone's talking about is filled with angry partisans and very much a wreck from the German invasion in the first place. I doubt very much Germany had the time and the resources to really rebuild it during the war (again, more of a role-play point than in game, perhaps). And has been noted, how much of the population was able to get there - and become productive - is unlikely to be very much, due to the priorities of the trains.

    Germany's best bet is to let America implode, at most doing what they're doing by quietly supporting the rebels. They have many bigger problems, like how they are going to stay masters of what they already control, instead of trying to wage war thousands of miles from the closest friendly port. Even if America wins, they won't be a threat to Germany for a very long time.
    The Axis powers have the strongest military in the world. Even if USA still has a navy going, it doesnt help them much with their TC, IC and dissent. The germans would need only one naval battle and it would take months for the usa navy to recover (If not even a year, since the land army and dissent priority).

    Second, while USA has begun to collapse, the German warmaschine didnt even show sings of it. Even their lands which they occupy didnt revolt as much as the american citizens against their own government. And the Germans also do have many allies which can help them and were not nuked.

    Not to forget that america would plunge into a civil war even without making pece with Germany and Hitler would never make peace no matter the situation (Atleast not in a whit peace). Germany could pretty much own America, there was no need for a peace.

    Normaly i would agree with your point on the soviets, IF there were any allies in Europe, but the american army got wiped out even before the soviets have even begun to pose any real danger and with the massive army the axis powers have, it would be no problem to defeat them for a second time.

  7. #1867
    I think some of you overestimate the effect of a nuclear weapon. It's nowhere near such a doomsday device as has been suggested in some posts.

    The roughly two dozen nuclear bombs fired in the war would neither lead to a nuclear winter nor any other noticeable direct disruption of the affected nation's agriculture and population besides the immedeate areas affected by the blast wave and the fall-out.
    Even in the worst case, this would be confined strictly to a small area in the bombed HoI2-province.
    Also, only bombs exploded on the ground will create large-scale fall-out, so it is extremely unlikely that every single warhead contaminated large areas of land. In fact, a nuclear airburst is more destructive than its counterpart since it distributes its energy more evenly and over a wider area than a weapon detonated at surface level, so it would be favoured by the targeteers of this timeline, especially since nuclear fallout and the damage it can do weren't really known at that time. I'd estimate that the only fallout experienced in this timeline was the result of weapon-malfunctions and nuclear tests.

    Furthermore, even if areas got contaminated, the radiation levels will decline sharply within a few days and the danger from fallout will be practically nonexistant within 3-5 weeks. So there won't be any areas of forever inhospitable green-glowing countryside either, agriculture can resume the next season (especially if there is a desperate need for food).

    However, indirect effects such as flight into the countryside out of fear of further attacks, collapse of public and military infrastructure branches, etc, could be quite severe and constitute an overwhelming part of the damage done to the attacked nation, which would get escalatingly worse the more often a nation is hit. That's why the third world war would have been so destructive, besides the staggering number of warheads involved, of course.
    In this timeline, however, only a few bombs were fired and the only nation in danger of such a collapse would be Britain. For Germany, the destruction caused by conventional warfare likely far outstrips the damage done by the nuclear bombs and the population perhaps sees the bombs as just another weapon equivalent to an excessive conventional bombing raid.

    There is also really no reason why a city hit by a nuclear attack has to be abandonded and cannot under any circumstances be rebuilt. Remember, both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still exist today as large cities. German and Japanese cities hit by Allied bombing raids, which in some cases did cause similair amounts of destruction such as in Dresden, also all were rebuilt.

    The only thing which would keep a nation from reconstruction efforts would be an ongoing war, so it makes sense for the US to seek a new power-base, while nations like Nazi Germany and Britain, which were dominated administratively and culturally by their capitals, would likely have returned there by now and started rebuilding. In this timeline, they were victorious after all and rebuilding their capital bigger and better than before would likely be an important symbolic gesture for them.
    Also, the Nazis planned to completely erase Berlin and rebuilt it from scratch as their new world capital anyway.

    As to the casualty figures: Those figures are way to high, you are assuming that the entire city population just waited for the nuclear attacks to occur without preparing in any way, standing outdoors and likely congregating in the city centers to make sure they'll die.
    Even if we assume that nobody fled to the countryside during the several months over which the nuclear exchange took place (for example, even during the relatively harmless Battle of Britain many people did just that), basic bomb shelters would reduce the number of deaths siginificantly. During the Second World War, civil defense was taken more seriously than the later duck&cover-approach. I'd at least quarter those casualty figures.



    @frigidmagi:
    You are basically starting with the worst-case assumption for Germany, while I argued from a best-case scenario, so I see where the difference in tone comes from.
    Well, it all depends on interpreation, but still I think you are way too drastic here. 30% civilian casualties is completely unheard of even in such a dystopian scenario. That's what, 20 million dead? You are assuming that every civilian stayed put in his home during a Stalingrad-like battle spanning all of Germany. That seems unlikely in the extreme and isn't what I would call realistic modelling.

    During the real Sowjet advance, a massive wave of fugitives heading west swamped Germany. That of course creates problems all of its own. Still, the allied advance was way slower than the Sowjets and it took them months to take even one province. The fronts were that static. I'll restate my opninion: Everyone who didn't want to be occupied could have walked away even if there wasn't any planned evacuation.
    What happened to those people after they passed the Oder river is another matter. They sure as hell don't lead the happy lives promised to them in Lebensraum-propaganda, but the German military presence during the war would also have prevented any successful resistance. I think Firestorm is quite correct in predicting mass starvation across the world.

    Furthermore, the allies held no air superiority in this campaign. In fact, Firestorm eventually lost his entire air force during the height of the battle for Germany. So there weren't any bombing raids to harass the German transportation network.


    I'll try to return to my point.
    You are entirely right when you say that Germany really has no interest in continuing the war, all its objecitves are achieved. On the list of problems Germany has, the US wouldn't even surface in the Top 10.
    However, unluckily for America, on the list of credible opponents that could put up a fight, the US wouldn't make the Top 10 either. All it would take to topple the US at this point is landing one army of perhaps 9 divisions in America in support of one of the revolting states. 9 division out of several hundred just standing around and digging in in Europe while the Sovjets are still busy in Asia.

    So it's true that Germany doesn't really want to concern itself with American affairs, but it is equally true that Germany could crush the US just as easily as if it were swatting an annoying fly and that's the reason why I consider it foolish to continue to abuse Germany in propaganda messages.

    Why provoke the sole supwerpower on the planet when you could for example use the Commie threat? After all, they basically backstabbed the US during the war and also support some of the civil war factions.

    And here we roll into the next bit. One I have established that Germany frankly isn't going to war with the US at this point. This means there is no real not to speak badly of Nazi Germany. Besides which nations do not tend to go to war over folks speaking badly of them. Has the United States bombed Iran for calling it the Great Satan? Has China done anything to the US over all the nasty things said about it over here? Or the on going bits in both the US and Russia about each other? A series of radio broadcasts where an American says unkind things won't start a war.
    Don't make the mistake of dismissing propganda press releases as diplomatically insignificant. Especially during the time of WW2 great effort was put into ensuring that propaganda releases didn't anger the wrong people. Think about how every criticism of the Sovjets was suppressed. At the same time Germany tried to remain in good favor with the British population by always honouring the British soldier's efforts in the war and only condemning their leadership.
    And this hasn't really changed since then. If today a politician endorsed a controversial right or left wing media platform angering another nation, you can be sure that there would be a diplomatic aftermath.

    As for examples of nations going to war because someone spoke badly of them: The Franco-Prussian war for one. A war won't erupt because of bad press alone, however, but bad press can be used as a pretext to declare war.

    Not unless it's backed up with action and the US bluntly can't back it up. So why worry? Frankly the German government is unlikely to give a shit, at least not until after the civil war is over.
    The US can't back up it's retoric, but what if Germany want's to wipe the US from the map as long as it is still barely able to defend itself against revolting states?

  8. #1868
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    I'd like to say that in some circles, nuclear winter has been disproven entirely. Also, even with 80s level nukes (were talking 50s nukes here), you'd only have to stay in a shelter for a month, max, before it would be safe to move out of the affected area. After two weeks or so it is safe to venture out for short periods to scavenge/repair your shelter.

    I got this information from the offical nuclear war survival guide, which is FREE, so everyone can read it online.

  9. #1869
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    Great post Dáin.
    However, the Liberty Radio is neither official nor is it wide spread. That is why it will not be as widely used as the BBC

    I am wondering, however, how many people would have been evacuated from the major cities. Most of the nuclear warheads in Britain went off within days of eachother with little notice.

    At the time of peace, I still had a few nuclear weapons. In fact, I have two nuclear ICBMs sitting in Chicago...

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    Last edited by {LD}Firestorm; 02-08-2009 at 08:23.
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  10. #1870
    I didn't see Liberty Radio as official, however it is likely to be in the minority of pro-government groups. Remember in the timeline, the federal government is/was extremely unpopular, and is likely to remain so until a change to the constitution is made banning deployment of military overseas. Also agitating would be the governments refusal to make a formal peace with the Axis - the current situation is really a cease-fire, the blockade confirming this. The Confederates have made peace, and secured the return of POWs, and many people may welcome peace and stability brought by CSA armies.

    In the UK the situation was different - the government fell, with the people giving up some freedoms and death in exchange for peace. If the US government had fallen, the USA could have retained its unity under a new constitution.

    It's hard to estimate the conditions - fortunately in our time line this situation did not eventuate.

  11. #1871
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    I don't even think a new constitution could have saved them from civil war. The rift had grown so badly from the nukes that it was beyond saving I think. Too divided at that point, too many rebels.

    The Confederates have made peace, and secured the return of POWs, and many people may welcome peace and stability brought by CSA armies.
    Yep, thought not all the PoWs were repatriated to the CSA armies. That would have given them way to many divisions
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  12. #1872
    Quote Originally Posted by {LD}Firestorm View Post
    I don't even think a new constitution could have saved them from civil war. The rift had grown so badly from the nukes that it was beyond saving I think. Too divided at that point, too many rebels.



    Yep, thought not all the PoWs were repatriated to the CSA armies. That would have given them way to many divisions
    Yeah, the situation went too far. In HOI3 terms, your national unity broke with the loss in Spain.

    With the PoWs, it is that some returned - in the USA, people will become more agitated with the government - "the Confederates made peace, and their boys are coming home - the government is still failing us"

  13. #1873
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    BBC Home and Forces Program – March 19th, 1954

    March 19th, 1954

    BBC Home and Forces Program

    "This is the BBC home and forces program. This is Bruce Belfrage. The South American war with Columbia has finally come to an end. On February 26th, Columbia officially surrendered to Peru and Argentina. This victory solidifies Argentina's political power over the continent, and opens up Latin America and the Caribbean to Argentinian influence."

    "Argentina has already seen a huge boost in their industry, with the food production of the region having nearly tripled since the food shortages began showing early last year. With their new-found power has come arrogance, however. The Argentinian government has been pushing for more rights and power in the Axis powers, and has not been received well by the European countries. With wheat becoming a significant tool on the political stage, it will be interesting to see how nations abroad respond."

    "In the United States, California and the United States seem to be benefiting from their border with Canada. Canada, a long-time trade partner with their friends south of the border, have increased their exports in order to bolster their own economy, which currently suffers from economic isolation from Europe and the Soviet Union. Relations between Canada and the south-east Asia countries continues to be friendly, but the Soviet blockade makes trade impossible."







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  14. #1874
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    I would focus all of my attention on Texas now. Hes the biggest threat, as he is a human-being, a backstabbing one. He might have something hidden up his sleeve. He will do anything to win, anything.

  15. #1875
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    Confederates encircled in Texas! About the third big disappointment they've had. Very dynamic situation. Are the Cores of the breakaway states all of america, or the regions they get proper in HOI2? I ask because of the CSA placing claim over all of America officially in the narrative.

  16. #1876
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    CSA and America have claim over all of the US.

    Texas and California have expanded cores.
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  17. #1877
    Feldmarschall von Toiletkrieg hebelecan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by {LD}Firestorm View Post
    CSA and America have claim over all of the US.

    Texas and California have expanded cores.
    Cools should've taken the CSA, it would be more fun to see 2 nations fighting for the States.

  18. #1878
    You invested IC into upgrading your transport planes? Well, since they played such an important role in ensuring your continued existence, it's probably justified.

    Why did you stop reducing your dissent, though? 30% still must hurt.

    Apart from cool, all civil war factions still look to be in good shape. This war may still last for a long time.

    Regarding the situation of the axis powers, I wouldn't be suprised if the German economy, what little there is left of it, is collapsing at that moment. Without any new states to invade and plunder for cash, the Reichsmark should be nearly worthless by now.
    Ironically, the situation in the German heartland might be practically the same as in our timeline. Extremely dire food situation, most cities completely bombed out and a steadily detoriating economic situation with shops devoid of any products to sell, farmers hoarding everything that isn't carried away by the army and black market trades flourishing.

  19. #1879
    Defender of Democracy {LD}Firestorm's Avatar
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    1) I upgraded one set of them to increase my deployable distance
    2) Still reducing. I am in the process of making a air cavalry division to deploy against California. Speed to take the open territory they took. Which is only a few days away from deploying...
    3) My next report will focus on western Europe. Western Germany, France, Spain, and Britain have all been severely devastated by years of war (nuclear and conventional). The eastern German territories (including the annexed Poland and Ukraine areas, as my new map will show when I get around to fixing it) are much better off, as they have not had to endure the same ddevastation and back and forth conflict that western Europe did.

    Much of the territory between Berlin and Paris has changed hands so many times over the years of the conflict, and the brutality of the conflict, and has left it pretty much stripped and devastated.
    Last edited by {LD}Firestorm; 05-08-2009 at 06:00.
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  20. #1880
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    Update tonight.
    HoI III tomorrow

    Cannot wait! My copy comes in tomorrow!! **gets all excited**
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