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I've set up this thread to try and do some fan art. Hope thats OK.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...=1#post2388818

Thanks for the info. Maybe I will find a way to include such figures in my AAR report.

That is more then okay, by the way. Its brilliant! I like that idea. I will put that link on the front page for sure. If you are going to do that, you are going to have a lot of fun in about 4 month's game time. I will be eager to see what you come up with at that period in time :D

Can you guys believe its already been 5 years of war since d-day? July 22nd, 1947 was when we took Caen, after fighting for the province since June 20th of that year. Now we are reaching June 1952, after years of bloody struggle, it appears the be reaching the end. No side in Europe can continue this for much longer.

So yeah this worlds going to be pretty messed up. I expect the empire to collapse in the late 50s possibly early 60s and civil war or massive riots in the UK as soon as the war is over.

Oh and another thing I imagine that Northern Germany will look like Northern France in 1918.

As for the Empire, it is already. Several governments have popped up. Mainland seems to be riot-free, but that is with intense military occupation of the provinces.

Everything west of Berlin to the French border has changed hands so many times, I am sure you are right about that. If not worse :wacko:
 
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It will only get worse from here, you will soon be pushing into the German occupied lands which will cripple your TC as the "changing hands" effect: Rus-Ger-USA will make huge partisan activity! Up to 45% if I am correct.

I salute you good Sir.
 
:eek::confused:

I hope not! But deep down I know you are right.
 
Surely once Prussia collapses and your forces move into Poland, the Germans will begin to struggle? Especially with the fall of Berlin - lots of leaders will be removed and I *think* the Germans get a dissent hit. With it being odds-on that most of the Axis forces are expeditionary forces, it will mean that these slightly weaker forces will be what is challenging yours - the bulk of German troops should collapse.
 
I look forward to getting past the Elbe and beyond Berlin. Then my large mech / arm armies can encircle. Here, there is little room for that.
 
As for nuclear war, since I happened to work in the nuclear industry I have some interesting insight and perspective towards it.

7 Bombs dropped on Britain wouldn't do much, and the way HoI simulates them causes them to be dramatically overpowered if they are a one nuke represents one bomb relationship.

People must remember that during the late 40's and the 50's, the USA and USSR both conducted extensive above ground nuclear weapons tests. The largest was carried out by the Soviets, Tsar Bomba, a 50 Mt bomb (that's 50 Million tons of TNT equivalent), which was dropped in Nova Zemlya(sic?).

The weapons tests in the Nevada and Arizona deserts ended up dumping fallout all across the East Coast of the USA. The Chinese Sinkiang nuclear tests ended up dumping nuclear fallout all across Canada and the USA and Siberia. There are still millions of people living and having children in these areas.

Another issue with fallout is that it's heavily dependant on weather patterns, rain will wash the fallout from the sky, and it also acts as a shield against the radiation burst from the initial explosion. Local humidity levels would causes variations of dosage rates at various ranges.

The other issue I have with HoI is that it doesn't scale well past the mid 40's on nuclear arms production. Players should be allowed to build multiple nuclear facilities after a certain point, which should in turn speed up weapons production dramatically. But that's a complaint for a differant day.

Also, nuclear carriers in game should have identical stats to the most advanced non-nuclear carrier. Since the Kitty Hawk is the most advanced model for the USA, and the Enterprise is the nuclear carrier model, and the reason the Enterprise has the number of boilers and reactors it has is because it is based off a modified design of the kitty hawk. And should thus have identical stats with the exception of range and fuel consumption and possibly an increase in supply consumption. So if PDox did their homework, getting to CV VII should be just as good as getting to CV VIII. The only big deal about hitting 7 is that you can unlock the turbojet CAG, so I'd be pushing that.

Otherwise it's a pretty cool AAR.
 
As for nuclear war, since I happened to work in the nuclear industry I have some interesting insight and perspective towards it.

7 Bombs dropped on Britain wouldn't do much, and the way HoI simulates them causes them to be dramatically overpowered if they are a one nuke represents one bomb relationship.

People must remember that during the late 40's and the 50's, the USA and USSR both conducted extensive above ground nuclear weapons tests. The largest was carried out by the Soviets, Tsar Bomba, a 50 Mt bomb (that's 50 Million tons of TNT equivalent), which was dropped in Nova Zemlya(sic?).

The weapons tests in the Nevada and Arizona deserts ended up dumping fallout all across the East Coast of the USA. The Chinese Sinkiang nuclear tests ended up dumping nuclear fallout all across Canada and the USA and Siberia. There are still millions of people living and having children in these areas.

Another issue with fallout is that it's heavily dependant on weather patterns, rain will wash the fallout from the sky, and it also acts as a shield against the radiation burst from the initial explosion. Local humidity levels would causes variations of dosage rates at various ranges.

Problem here is that the AAR is getting in to the 60s. Where nukes really were powerful.

It also depends on what type of bombs they are. They are Hydrogen yes but at least a few are likely to be dirty as well in response to Berlin, Munich, Vienna. So we could have a Chernobyl x 50 in a bigger city. I think you're under estimating the amount of damage caused.

The fallout here will probably hit either the Atlantic and the USA or France and Spain. I wouldn't be surprised if Norway got effected as well due to the gulf stream.

My dad used to help do simulators for this type of thing (nuclear war etc.) before he went into medicine instead and we used to talk about this kind of stuff all the time so I feel my calculations are correct.

EDIT:

Was looking around google just thought I'd post this. It's a nuclear simulator.

http://digg.com/d1U3SG
 
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Interesting find. I might go play with that later today. Oh, new news post sometime today :)

edit: Based on general wind patterns for the time in Britain, it is safe to say that most urban areas would be heavily irradiated, and much of southern Britain containing radiated lands. After the war in Europe is over, I will be posting an image of the radiations zones, which would include mandator evacuated areas, and voluntary evacuated areas to due to increased radiation levels. Anyone with any knowledge of fallout out there? I wouldn't mind a pm showing me of about how far fallout would extend (immediately lethal boundary, over-time death boundary, and significant health risks boundary. I would like to note that I am assuming a 15 mT nuclear devicse was used in all attacks, both German and ours)
The other issue I have with HoI is that it doesn't scale well past the mid 40's on nuclear arms production. Players should be allowed to build multiple nuclear facilities after a certain point, which should in turn speed up weapons production dramatically. But that's a complaint for a differant day.

I will be attempting to simulate this for all nuclear countries after World War II. I am going to simulate this via events.
 
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CBS World News – May 13th, 1952

May 13th, 1952

CBS World News

"The world today. The Columbia Broadcasting System now presents a summary of the all the important world news today. Reports from CBS correspondents by trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific short wave radio, and the latest developments as received by the Columbia's news room here in New York. Tonight we will be reporting on the latest military events from Europe and abroad via our correspondents in Paris."

"American High Command has been in a frenzy lately as all fronts report a huge increase in enemy activity. Intelligence reports indicate a massive transfer of German reserves from the occupied territories to the Berlin front. The effects of this transfer are already being shown. Although Allied troops were able to defeat the divisions that took Dresden, fresh German reserves have been thrown into the fray for the region as battle-tired Allied divisions attempt to re-secure the city. To the north, American and Canadian forces in Stralsund were forced to retreat after several panzer divisions, supported by many more panzergrenadier divisions, pushed into the region early last week."

"In Sweden, Canadian forces have advanced and taken several key Swedish positions. In Africa, the situation has also been favoring the Allied advance as Algerian and American divisions advance towards Tunis, the former Tunisian capital. However, the situation in Asia has continued to worsen as the Red Army continues to advance against the Korean-help positions along the northern Korean border."

"The Commander Feuersturm and Commander Cool convened earlier this week to discuss the operations to come. The results of this meeting were not released to the public. However, it is known that Commander Cool has been expressing some concerns about recent political movements in Britain, and has requested American assistance to ensure the stability of the government. It is known that Cool was slightly angered at Commander Feuersturm's refusal to send assistance."

"That is how bad the situation with in Britain has become. Food riots have broken out in several cities, and severe political divisions are becoming apparent. The military demand on Britain’s economy has been increasing, after the United States began limiting supplies to ease demand on its own population. The United States has also been plagued by domestic riots as food supplies run short and discontent with the continuation of the war spreads. American authorities say they have the situation under control, but they request that the population not resort to violence, as that would not help the situation."


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**Holy #$% is all I will say. Air reconnaissance over east German territory is not promising. I have never seen so many divisions moving towards the front at once. This is going to get messy when they arrive at the front.**
 
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Nope, only Andong was. I think the defence there is rapidly deteriorating :(
 
So what are you going to do in the Korean Front?

Retreat back to Wusan and Pyongyang and lead a counterattack towards Vladivostok and Beijing?
 
You seem to be in dire straits. :(
 
I agree about Korea. Retreat and reform. It is your best option.

Push forward! Come on, victory is at hand. Hopefully Berlin doesnt descend into a situation I had with Moscow one game. 100 divisions attacking against 6 Soviets that became an absolute bloodbath cause Soviet divisions kept appearing, were in massive fortifications, city, etc. It was bad.
 
I admire your patience with your pilots. If I were you, I'd hang the commander of that sprite for not going Kamikaze in the enemy sprites and with any luck, killing a few units here and there.

Anyway, in all seriousness, your fucked up. I'm pretty sure there's still a lot of shit coming down from the Urals as well.
 
I know. It is dreadful. Just you wait, Hatuke, and you shall see.

As for Korea, abandoning the mountain line is my most dreadful prospect. Once I lose the last of them, there is nothing to stop the Soviets between the front and Seoul.

@soulking: There will be no grand counter attack to save Asia. Korea, for all intents and purposes, is done for. Best we can hope for is they hold out long enough for China to get more divisions out to counter what would come from the Korean front after its defeat.
 
Problem here is that the AAR is getting in to the 60s. Where nukes really were powerful.

It also depends on what type of bombs they are. They are Hydrogen yes but at least a few are likely to be dirty as well in response to Berlin, Munich, Vienna. So we could have a Chernobyl x 50 in a bigger city. I think you're under estimating the amount of damage caused.

Chernobyl is not the same as a nuclear weapon strike.

Nuclear power production produces large quantities of fission products, and those products are stockpiled inside the core. So you end up with high quantities of Strontium 90 and Cesium 135, since these are long lived, while nuclear weapons will instantly release large ammounts of short lived particles which quickly decay away to background. Activated Argon has a half life of 14 hours, and so will be back to background levels after about a week. The primary radiation source for plant workers is actually the reactor coolant while at power, as it generates a highly energetic gamma and has a half life of only 8 seconds. Of course this means that one minute after shut down the primary coolant loses 98% of its activity. So since power reactors tend to generate more power, but over a dramatically longer period of time, they are more dangerous since they generate more long term radiological threats than a weapon would.

There is also the issue of the type of bomb. If they are true hydrogen bombs, then they would be cleaner than a conventional fission bomb, and dramatically cleaner than a boosted fission bomb. Since the majority of the energy from the blast comes from the fusion of light nuclei which creates much less dangerous radionuclides that tend to also be shorter lived. There is also the potential for elements transmutation and 'burning' from neutron relases which will cause a varied radiological release compared to a nuclear plant. Then again, I was in power production, not weapons design, those production rates might be documented, I know Xenon curves and other fission product production rates are heavily documented for reactor ops because some of them have a notable effect on rod height required for criticality.

In conclusion, the game automatically upgrades the bombs to the best available type (which doesn't make sense, but it's a game). So if they were dirty bombs, then the long term damage would be worse than hydrogen, however the effect on infra and IC and pop is much worse that it should be for a nuke waste bomb. Reading the HoI2 wiki nuclear weapons page they do vary the province effects. And on further examination the numbers match up closely, though probably not perfectly. I think my biggest problem is the waste bomb, which for all intents and purposes is basically like a biological weapon similar to anthrax. Which we're banned from talking about, or modding into the game, even though it is already built into the game.

I would like to note that I am assuming a 15 mT nuclear devicse was used in all attacks, both German and ours)

I'm not sure why you would make that assumtion. The first bombs dropped on Japan were very low yield in the 10-30 kT range. Unless both sides have access to hydrogen bombs, if you only had standard fission bombs at the time then the yields were likely only about 1 Mt.

The link given does OK for thermal effects (doesn't account for terrain or height of airburst). Take a look at wikipedia, they've got some decent info about fallout.
 
Chernobyl is not the same as a nuclear weapon strike.

Nuclear power production produces large quantities of fission products, and those products are stockpiled inside the core. So you end up with high quantities of Strontium 90 and Cesium 135, since these are long lived, while nuclear weapons will instantly release large ammounts of short lived particles which quickly decay away to background. Activated Argon has a half life of 14 hours, and so will be back to background levels after about a week. The primary radiation source for plant workers is actually the reactor coolant while at power, as it generates a highly energetic gamma and has a half life of only 8 seconds. Of course this means that one minute after shut down the primary coolant loses 98% of its activity. So since power reactors tend to generate more power, but over a dramatically longer period of time, they are more dangerous since they generate more long term radiological threats than a weapon would.

There is also the issue of the type of bomb. If they are true hydrogen bombs, then they would be cleaner than a conventional fission bomb, and dramatically cleaner than a boosted fission bomb. Since the majority of the energy from the blast comes from the fusion of light nuclei which creates much less dangerous radionuclides that tend to also be shorter lived. There is also the potential for elements transmutation and 'burning' from neutron relases which will cause a varied radiological release compared to a nuclear plant. Then again, I was in power production, not weapons design, those production rates might be documented, I know Xenon curves and other fission product production rates are heavily documented for reactor ops because some of them have a notable effect on rod height required for criticality.

In conclusion, the game automatically upgrades the bombs to the best available type (which doesn't make sense, but it's a game). So if they were dirty bombs, then the long term damage would be worse than hydrogen, however the effect on infra and IC and pop is much worse that it should be for a nuke waste bomb. Reading the HoI2 wiki nuclear weapons page they do vary the province effects. And on further examination the numbers match up closely, though probably not perfectly. I think my biggest problem is the waste bomb, which for all intents and purposes is basically like a biological weapon similar to anthrax. Which we're banned from talking about, or modding into the game, even though it is already built into the game.



I'm not sure why you would make that assumtion. The first bombs dropped on Japan were very low yield in the 10-30 kT range. Unless both sides have access to hydrogen bombs, if you only had standard fission bombs at the time then the yields were likely only about 1 Mt.

The link given does OK for thermal effects (doesn't account for terrain or height of airburst). Take a look at wikipedia, they've got some decent info about fallout.

Oh I see. I admit I was wrong then but I do think more permeant damage will be done than you are allowing for. Even if its just that people are suspicious about radiation so don't live in South England for the next hundred years. You don't see people who lived in Chernobyl going back there even though its 99% safe.

Everyone in this game has Hydrogen weapons. I'm 99% sure of that.

Firestorm do you think you could post us screenies of wether you and Cool do?
 
Dreadful prospects there in mainland Europe.

However Sweden looks decent. As everywhere else, more forces would allow you to knock out another Axis member. if only those forces were available... still it looks like you can keep advancing with what you have. Maybe even still knock out the Swedes and restore democracy within a few months.

Is Britain still producing nukes? I remember London got hit badly and Cool had his reactor there. (Why???)

What would be the next best German cities to hit with nukes in order to decimate IC, manpower and create dissent? Vienna and Berlin should be low on IC and MP now after being hit already. Dresden? Prague? Breslau? Must be a core city otherwise you create no dissent. (Which is why hitting Moscow was such a bad choice.) Is Prague a German core?

When you do your big bad nuclear attack to win the war, please please check those things before doing the attack :eek:o It would be a shame if the potential of nukes was pissed away like in the first attacks. If you aim for strategic effects (max dissent, max IC/MP reduction) the aims are
1) Target must be core province of GER and controlled
2) big IC
3) big MP
I don't know how much dissent you can create with what's left in terms of targets, but with two or three nukes there should still be a sizable effect possible... maybe someone can do the math here... ?
 
I'm not sure why you would make that assumtion. The first bombs dropped on Japan were very low yield in the 10-30 kT range. Unless both sides have access to hydrogen bombs, if you only had standard fission bombs at the time then the yields were likely only about 1 Mt.

The link given does OK for thermal effects (doesn't account for terrain or height of airburst). Take a look at wikipedia, they've got some decent info about fallout.

Wiki says some of the mid-1950s hydrogen bomb tests were 15Mt. They could be mistaken, since anyone can edit wikipedia, and it is a bad source for info, I know. The Germans were ahead of us in nuclear production, so I think they would be more advanced then the USA on the original time line (real life). That is the only way I can think of them having so many!


I will be posting an update either today or tomorrow. I've been in the mood for updating so I've been doing daily updates :p
Everyone in this game has Hydrogen weapons. I'm 99% sure of that.

Firestorm do you think you could post us screenies of wether you and Cool do?

We do, and infact I think we all and miniature nukes too, as both sides used ICBMS (with and without nukes).
 
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