Development Diary #5 - 12th of November 2008

[King]

I see the way your looking at it but your assuming that there are gaps between the units is this the case ?


This is how I am\was don't know visualizing it

Inf Inf Inf Inf
---------------------
Arm Arm Arm
Arm Arm

If you have the Blitzkrieg doctrine which reduces the frontage of a unit more of those units can move forward and take up position on the front line.

Inf Inf Inf Inf
--------------------------
Arm Arm Arm Arm Arm


I keep seeing a EU3\Rome battle layout and there are no gaps between units there is only the number of units and the maximum front they can take up, anything over that limit becoming the reserve.

The problem I see is what happens here

Inf Inf Inf Inf Inf
--------------------------
Arm Arm Arm Arm Arm

Even if I have the Blitzkrieg doctrine and ignoring other benefits it wont affect the frontage.

I presume I am looking at it arse ways but you got to ask questions.

This is the direction you should be thinking in.

[Zaki]

And in this case

arm arm arm arm arm
---------------------
arm arm arm arm arm

What's the difference between blitzkrieg and something else?

Obviously, we need more weekly dd's to find out.

Otoh, I think now that there's no real difference between narrowing the frontage and amassing units: it all ends in the same basket – to have more units on some section of frontline then your enemy. Is this achieved via narrowing the frontage or via amassing units, well, it's only technical question.

[Myth]

Otoh, I think now that there's no real difference between narrowing the frontage and amassing units: it all ends in the same basket – to have more units on some section of frontline then your enemy. Is this achieved via narrowing the frontage or via amassing units, well, it's only technical question.

Massing units and narrowing the frontage are the same thing. If you mass more units in area x, it isn't going to get any bigger, so you have to narrow the divisional frontage if you want to use as many of them as possible.

[Fernando Torres]

In that case, the country using 'traditional' doctrines won't be able to use all its arm divs.

[Zaki]

Massing units and narrowing the frontage are the same thing. If you mass more units in area x, it isn't going to get any bigger, so you have to narrow the divisional frontage if you want to use as many of them as possible.

Well, that's true. I just wanted to say that, one way or the other, you must somehow achieve numerical superiority, most probably by packing your armors tighter.

I guess that I need to diferentiate between divisional frontage and province frontage.

[dpdlc]

And in this case

arm arm arm arm arm
---------------------
arm arm arm arm arm

What's the difference between blitzkrieg and something else?

Obviously, we need more weekly dd's to find out.

This case is impossible to create unless both sides have blitzkrieg.

arm (Reserve)
arm arm arm arm (front Line no blitz)
---------------------
arm arm arm arm arm (Front Line + blitz)

Guess who is going to win the 5v4 battle?

The more concentrated your units the more, guns you can bring to bear to a single defender making it easier to punch through. In a frontage, not all units can support all others in a line.

The more spread out the defenders the easier it is to cover the entire front to prevent flanking. If defenders have gaps in their lines... well its not really a line anymore.

The question that no one has asked, yet and frankly i'm surprised. Do units have the same frontage when attacking or defending?

As I see it its better to have high concentration attacking but then lower/medium when defending.

[Battlecry]

And in this case

arm arm arm arm arm
---------------------
arm arm arm arm arm

What's the difference between blitzkrieg and something else?

In that case, the country using 'traditional' doctrines won't be able to use all its arm divs.

I believe Zaki means is: what if a country which has blitzkrieg stands against a country which does not, but the "blitzkrieg equipped" nation does not have the units to fill up the extra frontage they've gained.
Unless there are some other bonuses to having the Blitzkrieg doctrine, I think in such situations the battle would be equal (barring any other bonuses). At least, I can't see why it wouldn't be - blitzkrieg depends heavily on a superior local concentration of forces ( the Schwerpunkt [point of focus] concept); if you do not have sufficient forces to achieve that, then it doesn't work, and no advantage (again barring external factors) is to be had.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your meaning, Zaki.

[Battlecry]

This case is impossible to create unless both sides have blitzkrieg.

arm (Reserve)
arm arm arm arm (front Line no blitz)
---------------------
arm arm arm arm arm (Front Line + blitz)

Not at all. If the country with blitzkrieg only has enough divisions to man four slots vs. the enemy's four, then it is entirely possible.

[Zaki]

I believe Zaki means is: what if a country which has blitzkrieg stands against a country which does not, but the "blitzkrieg equipped" nation does not have the units to fill up the extra frontage they've gained.
Unless there are some other bonuses to having the Blitzkrieg doctrine, I think in such situations the battle would be equal (barring any other bonuses). At least, I can't see why it wouldn't be - blitzkrieg depends heavily on a superior local concentration of forces ( the Schwerpunkt [point of focus] concept); if you do not have sufficient forces to achieve that, then it doesn't work, and no advantage (again barring external factors) is to be had.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your meaning, Zaki.

It's ok, you're right.

[Battlecry]

Do units have the same frontage when attacking or defending?

I would think not. Blitzkrieg in particular should not provide a defensive frontage bonus, as blitzing into an oncoming offensive would/could result in envelopment almost immediately (certainly not 100& of the time, but frequently).

A mobile defense doctrine like 'elastic defense' should lower the enemy attacker's frontage, as the front constantly expands in front of them.

[carlos.gh]

I'll preface this comment by saying I haven't read every post in this thread, but I would like to share some of my observations to the screenie at the beginning posted by Johan. Certainly I recognize the product is in development and this is an alpha version, but I'm hoping that some of the information available on the counters isn't taken away or lost in the new version of HOI.

Specifically: (in reaction to the counters displayed in the screenie)
1) unit designation seem unnecessarily overscaled and takes away real estate for other possible useful pieces of information
2) flag seems too small...just a bit larger seems better to me.
3) wouldn't it be cool if a brigade attachment was visible on the counter?
4) maybe the brigade type can be indicated graphically
5) please don't lose the ability to show the leadership type commanding a unit
6) love the possibility that the number indicates unit strength...is that what the number is?
7) hoping the graphics and background color contrast issues can be resolved for better legibility.

Here's a little graphic sample of what I mean:



The product looks great! I'm just hoping we don't lose some counter information currently available and maybe even sneak in a bit more.

The counter is really nice, but I would rather like to see unit statistics. The country flag does not add any value but look and feel so I would use that space for showing unit stats, a much more important information.

[Jamie550]

The counter is really nice, but I would rather like to see unit statistics. The country flag does not add any value but look and feel so I would use that space for showing unit stats, a much more important information.

But then how do we tell countries apart, if their background color is the same?

[Zaki]

I would think not. Blitzkrieg in particular should not provide a defensive frontage bonus, as blitzing into an oncoming offensive would/could result in envelopment almost immediately (certainly not 100& of the time, but frequently).

A mobile defense doctrine like 'elastic defense' should lower the enemy attacker's frontage, as the front constantly expands in front of them.

I don't think that your doctrine should affect how much frontage your enemy units will use, nor the frontage size of the province (which is always the same). Elastic defense may, perhaps, narrow frontage of your defending units or give them some other benefit.

[Battlecry]

I don't think that your doctrine should affect how much frontage your enemy units will use, nor the frontage size of the province (which is always the same). Elastic defense may, perhaps, narrow frontage of your defending units or give them some other benefit.

Only terrain modifies the absolute frontage of a province, as stated in the diary. As far as lowering the attacker's frontage or increasing the defender's - the effect is exactly the same. Given the tactical nature of any mobile defense, a lowering of the attacker's frontage would be more authentic (the entire point of mobile defense is to prevent an attacker from gaining local superiority in concentration of forces, whatever the particulars of a specific doctrine).

[Luka]

I really like this for individual divisions, but it would be really cool if you could make a different style for Divisions, Corps, and Armies... For example, something like...


(forgive me for editing yours, robw963)

Quoted for agreement. This kind of thing will help the user quick analyze the structure and disposition of his armed forces. If all counters are the same, the visuals of the situation can get quite confusing.
In theory it shouldn't be too difficult to implement. Some pseudo code for you:

if( unit.subordinates.count() == 0 )
    unit.type = division;
else if( unit.subordinates.count() > 0 && unit.subordinates.count() <= 3)
    unit.type = corps;
else if( unit.subordinates.count() > 3 && unit.subordinates.count() <= 6)
    unit.type = army;
etc...

As if everyone couldn't have figured that one out for themselves....

[Zaki]

Only terrain modifies the absolute frontage of a province, as stated in the diary. As far as lowering the attacker's frontage or increasing the defender's - the effect is exactly the same. Given the tactical nature of any mobile defense, a lowering of the attacker's frontage would be more authentic (the entire point of mobile defense is to prevent an attacker from gaining local superiority in concentration of forces, whatever the particulars of a specific doctrine).

Yes, the effect is exactly the same, no question about that, as for the rest of your post, what's more or less authentic ... well I guess that remains opened for an eternal debate. For example, one could say that elastic defense means that you can easier push reserves from the second line to the front row, so some kind of modifier will have better value, and so on.

[Battlecry]

Yes, the effect is exactly the same, no question about that, as for the rest of your post, what's more or less authentic ... well I guess that remains opened for an eternal debate. For example, one could say that elastic defense means that you can easier push reserves from the second line to the front row, so some kind of modifier will have better value, and so on.

Not really a debate worth having, I think. The concept is too abstracted to really ever prove anything. My main points were that:
a) frontages will likely not be the same for attack and defense, and
b) certainly this should not be the case for blitzkrieg, but there may be other doctrines providing an equal & opposite frontage effect. (a great deal of the defensive innovations of the Second World War were in direct reaction to the early success of blitzkrieg).

[Zaki]

So I guess unit will have some sort of frontage capacity value (defining how much frontage space unit will occupy – maybe there is a better expression), which could be modified by anything. Maybe we will be able to mod what does affect that value and what doesn't.

[Hansag]

brigade is the building block of divisions.

Now if you have a frontage [size] value for a division, and brigades are the building blocks of these divisions, then some part of the division won't really be on the front line (taking up frontage space).

--- Core Brigades ---
2 (Line) Infantry Brigades (Including their organic recon, bikes etc.)
1 Heavy Weapons Brigade (Howizers, organic AT, AA etc.)
1 Support Brigade (Horses and wagons or trucks etc. as well as other logistical, medical, bridging/engineering and military police etc.)
--- Extra Attachment ---
1 Attachment (adding heavy artillery, AT, AA, Engineers or whatever)

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...7&page=9&pp=20

In the example above, I'd imagine that the "Support Brigade" won't really take up that much space, and that the heavy weapons won't either (since they are in the rear).
However, the Infantry Brigades will take up frontage space, since they are the "contact surface" with the enemy.

So technically, an "Artillery Division" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ery_Divisions), would take up very little frontage, since it's "in the rear, with the gear" lobbing shells from where the reserves are located... However, they'd be basically undefended if noone is in the front lines.

[Battlecry]

Alot of people are suggesting that there will still be extra brigades (attachments), in the same way as HOI2. Although we'll have to wait for more details, I really, really doubt this will be the case. Brigade attachments were a way to add flexibility to divisions in HOI2 - now that we get to build division from the ground up, that isn't an issue anymore.

Besides, adding an entire brigade (circa 1/3 again added to a division's strength) is a bit beyond a normal divisional attachment - even units termed as "reinforced divisions" IRL did not have that much extra strength added.

EDIT: as for the above post, it seems unlikely that the combat model will be sufficiently detailed to add frontage differences inside divisions, although dedicated support units (artillery etc.) may have less chance of being damaged while the unit's they're supporting are still holding.

EDIT2: I can't believe this thread has well over 12,000 views and 200 posts only 48 hours after creation...