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The UK has surrendered.
Too afraid to speak. The worst is still to come, I'm afraid.
Too afraid to speak. The worst is still to come, I'm afraid.
To quote everyone's favourite Secret Agent: "There are some things that just aren't done.", and first on that list is giving in to the huns.
Yeah baby yeah!
Peace!
Just cede Elsass-Lothringen to Germany and then disarm France. Install a normal pro-german-pro-british government which is neutral.
Then the anglo-german trade shall again booom.
Nice nice!
Democracy has been saved in the west.
Now britain can again focus on keeping the empire together.
Peace!
Just cede Elsass-Lothringen to Germany and then disarm France. Install a normal pro-german-pro-british government which is neutral.
Then the anglo-german trade shall again booom.
Nice nice!
Democracy has been saved in the west.
Now britain can again focus on keeping the empire together.
Chapter 28, London, 26 May 1940
The entire country was stunned. As Butler’s words were splashed across the pages of every paper and journal across the land the entire country suffered a collective dropping of the jaw. Some, The Times, the Daily Mail and a few others, immediately applauded the ceasefire. The more left-wing papers were highly critical, describing the ceasefire as a betrayal to France and screaming at the Labour Party to lead the fight against tyranny.
Many journals and periodicals all over England found themselves out of date overnight. Sluggish to support Chamberlain, as the Wehrmacht tore into Western Europe they were rousing themselves to support the war. Punch, ever sarcastic, published a mocking look at how the Germans viewed the British. As readers glanced from Punch to their morning papers (containing the news of the ceasefire), the article gained a new meaning. Perhaps the Germans had been right, and Britain (or her Government) was made of up of well-meaning, though essentially foolish, gentlemen amateurs.
Labour, and its leadership, now faced the most challenging task in the country. With the fate of those Conservatives who opposed Halifax and Butler largely uncertain, Clement Attlee now had to decide where to place the Labour Party’s response. His first action was to send a waspish complaint to Halifax about the lack of consultation. The ceasefire had been agreed by Butler without Cabinet approval (or even knowledge). This was in direct contrast to the promise given by the Prime Minister to his Attlee, notionally his Deputy. Attlee’s first instinct was to pull Labour out of the coalition, bringing down the National Government and Halifax with it. Greenwood, certainly, supported this move and Dalton, though less passionate, would also agree. But there was also another element; the Treaty had yet to be signed. Here, Attlee had a plan and invited Archie Sinclair, the Liberal Leader, to meet with him.
“Archie, I do not trust the Prime Minister to involve us in these negotiations. He promised, he actually promised, to Hugh and I that there would be no peace without Parliament’s approval!”
“Legally, Clem, he’s stuck to his word. There is no peace, only a ceasefire, and he did tell the House as soon as it was announced.”
Attlee shot a vicious look. “Do you honestly expect him to include us in the negotiations?”
Sinclair smiled. “No, of course not. He’ll send Butler over there and we’ll have neither sight or sound of the discussions. It’s probably all agreed anyway. What do you plan to do?”
“Shame him. Brief the Commons about the assurance. Get him and Butler to openly admit their deception.”
“Will they?”
Attlee snapped. “Irrelevant. The world will know of their treachery.”
“And the treaty negotiations?”
“We insist that we send one of my chaps and one of yours.”
[Game Effect] – Attlee has a fine line to walk. Halifax’s tactics in keeping the negotiations secret have (obviously) infuriated him. Now that the ceasefire has been announced the proverbial has hit the fan. Would Attlee have “brought down the House”? I don’t think so. Labour in 1940 was intensely patriotic and the collapse of the National Government would have put the UK in an even worse position as it prepared to sign the final settlement. He is also correct that the vast majority of the Treaty is agreed upon anyway; Butler will return to Italy to agree the final terms and arrange the signing ceremony. Attlee, has, in sum, been treated atrociously by the Halifax inner cabal.
Trekaddict: Colonel Blimp might be available on DVD - not sure though.
Kurt_Steiner: Wait and see...techincally it's not a surrender.
Enewald: Not quite...
The entire country was stunned. As Butler’s words were splashed across the pages of every paper and journal across the land the entire country suffered a collective dropping of the jaw. Some, The Times, the Daily Mail and a few others, immediately applauded the ceasefire. The more left-wing papers were highly critical, describing the ceasefire as a betrayal to France and screaming at the Labour Party to lead the fight against tyranny.
Many journals and periodicals all over England found themselves out of date overnight. Sluggish to support Chamberlain, as the Wehrmacht tore into Western Europe they were rousing themselves to support the war. Punch, ever sarcastic, published a mocking look at how the Germans viewed the British. As readers glanced from Punch to their morning papers (containing the news of the ceasefire), the article gained a new meaning. Perhaps the Germans had been right, and Britain (or her Government) was made of up of well-meaning, though essentially foolish, gentlemen amateurs.
Labour, and its leadership, now faced the most challenging task in the country. With the fate of those Conservatives who opposed Halifax and Butler largely uncertain, Clement Attlee now had to decide where to place the Labour Party’s response. His first action was to send a waspish complaint to Halifax about the lack of consultation. The ceasefire had been agreed by Butler without Cabinet approval (or even knowledge). This was in direct contrast to the promise given by the Prime Minister to his Attlee, notionally his Deputy. Attlee’s first instinct was to pull Labour out of the coalition, bringing down the National Government and Halifax with it. Greenwood, certainly, supported this move and Dalton, though less passionate, would also agree. But there was also another element; the Treaty had yet to be signed. Here, Attlee had a plan and invited Archie Sinclair, the Liberal Leader, to meet with him.
“Archie, I do not trust the Prime Minister to involve us in these negotiations. He promised, he actually promised, to Hugh and I that there would be no peace without Parliament’s approval!”
“Legally, Clem, he’s stuck to his word. There is no peace, only a ceasefire, and he did tell the House as soon as it was announced.”
Attlee shot a vicious look. “Do you honestly expect him to include us in the negotiations?”
Sinclair smiled. “No, of course not. He’ll send Butler over there and we’ll have neither sight or sound of the discussions. It’s probably all agreed anyway. What do you plan to do?”
“Shame him. Brief the Commons about the assurance. Get him and Butler to openly admit their deception.”
“Will they?”
Attlee snapped. “Irrelevant. The world will know of their treachery.”
“And the treaty negotiations?”
“We insist that we send one of my chaps and one of yours.”
[Game Effect] – Attlee has a fine line to walk. Halifax’s tactics in keeping the negotiations secret have (obviously) infuriated him. Now that the ceasefire has been announced the proverbial has hit the fan. Would Attlee have “brought down the House”? I don’t think so. Labour in 1940 was intensely patriotic and the collapse of the National Government would have put the UK in an even worse position as it prepared to sign the final settlement. He is also correct that the vast majority of the Treaty is agreed upon anyway; Butler will return to Italy to agree the final terms and arrange the signing ceremony. Attlee, has, in sum, been treated atrociously by the Halifax inner cabal.
Trekaddict: Colonel Blimp might be available on DVD - not sure though.
Kurt_Steiner: Wait and see...techincally it's not a surrender.
Enewald: Not quite...
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Well obviously, as you say Atlee is a patriot, bright and not a coward. Whenever Halifax looks at him he sees someone who is everything he isn't and it (should) make him feel sick.
Mind you Halifax probably sees the same thing when looking at pond life so it doesn't say much.
Hmm. Hmmm indeed. Could we see a what I have seen in a few other counter-factual histories, i.e. a 'war party' founded from those of both other parties that oppose the peace settlement?
That's because your always being negative and picking holes in everything.I never expected to see those words out of your mouth Pip
That's because your always being negative and picking holes in everything.
And despite the fact that I still don't like him myself, at least he was now coward.
*Looks out the window to see if there's any flying pigs around, contemplates killing himself to find out if hell has frozen over, but decides to suggest that trekaddict does that instead*
Hopefully, even if Attlee and Sinclair can't break the National Government, they can still sabotage the peace treaty. It would be hilarious if Halifax was forced to fight on and eventually got the same sort of reputation as Churchill in OTL, with his manoeuvring in the summer of 1940 being conveniently forgotten.
Hey, now! Halifax has worked hard to get this peace treaty worked out! It would be terrible if these Attlee and Sinclair jerks stupidly ruin Halifax's hard work!
Give that the present historians would probably argue that his manoeuvering was only a faint to throw off the Germany in order to gain time to rebuild the defences.
A quick surrender. . . one wonders how events unfold. Without the need to oppose Britain, France would not require such a fierce settlement, and might get away largely intact (although puppeted), making Germany a more sympathetic protagonist against Stalin. I still see this heading in a "defeat the Nazis AND the Communists" direction, and approve so far.
Chapter 29, The War Office, 27 May 1940
Churchill was incensed. Like a caged dragon, he stalked into his lair spitting fire to anyone who crossed him. Raging, he stormed into his office and made a list of bullet-pointed priorities:
1. Safeguard BEF, RN and RAF. Considered possible. Little Wehrmacht interest in British forces.
2. Prevent outrageous terms (Mediterranean concessions, any limitations on RN/RAF, war debts) from being accepted by Cabinet. Considered possible with cross-party support. WSC to speak to Attlee and Sinclair.
3. Destroy as much unsalvageable equipment (grounded airframes, BEF supplies etc) that cannot be returned to England to prevent capture by German troops. Considered difficult as BEF reliant on German goodwill
4. Protect foreign forces in Britain (Poles, Czechs, French, Belgians) from handover to Germans. Considered possible – WSC to action.
5. Get American involvement in saving remaining European democracies (Sweden, Greece, Turkey, Ireland). Considered unlikely – Butler and the Holy Fox wary of FDR.
6. Shame this Government into realising its obligations on points 1 – 5.
Churchill, unhappily, realised that Item 2 was already lost, agreed between Butler and Ciano in their Villa meetings. Points 1 and 3 were vital, and Churchill knew the nation would support him in whatever he did to save Britain’s army. Points 5 and 6 could not be enacted without support. But Point 4 chilled Churchill’s soul - he simply declared that the foreigners were British, thereby protecting thousands. He intended to use these exiles as specialist troops, going ahead to wreak havoc in occupied Europe. Providing the treaty didn't work; this damn thing had to be challenged. No doubt, Chruchill knew, there would be some minor territorial concession that would be palatable to a defeatist Conservative Party. But then, what? More concessions, more permissions, more 'blind-eye' tactics to the obvious. This was a cursed treaty, a treaty, Churchill knew, that he would fight.
Throwing himself into his chair he looked at a now out of date article on the war, showing a defiant Churchill firing cigars into a Wagnerian Germany. Chuckling, Churchill mustered his defiance and went into battle.
[Game Effect] – Churchill is the only figure in the Cabinet passionately opposed to the ceasefire. Eden, slightly more pragmatic, would probably play a “wait and see” game, watching events until the final terms were agreed. Given forum rules I don’t want to go into a discussion about Point 4, but it gives Winston a private army at the very least! Winston is probably right when he says that he is reliant upon gaining suitable assistance for Point 2 - I'm just sure how he would be able to muster a motley band of 'hawks' given the 'dove tendencies now developing.
Next up, the ratification debate begins...
El Pip: Attlee's behaviour thus far has been honourable. Typically plodding but honourable.
Arilou: Concur.
Trekaddict: The basic problem that we have is that even in reality the defeatists were in the ascendant. It took the "miracle" of Dunkirk and some inspired War Cabinet rhetoric to get Britain ready for total war.
Eams: I think that is more plausible than some random (probably Trekaddict inspired) coup.
Nathan Madien: They'll still be trying...
Trekaddict: That is one possibility.
Phargle: Indeed, the impact of a British settlement with Germany is simply huge.
Churchill was incensed. Like a caged dragon, he stalked into his lair spitting fire to anyone who crossed him. Raging, he stormed into his office and made a list of bullet-pointed priorities:
1. Safeguard BEF, RN and RAF. Considered possible. Little Wehrmacht interest in British forces.
2. Prevent outrageous terms (Mediterranean concessions, any limitations on RN/RAF, war debts) from being accepted by Cabinet. Considered possible with cross-party support. WSC to speak to Attlee and Sinclair.
3. Destroy as much unsalvageable equipment (grounded airframes, BEF supplies etc) that cannot be returned to England to prevent capture by German troops. Considered difficult as BEF reliant on German goodwill
4. Protect foreign forces in Britain (Poles, Czechs, French, Belgians) from handover to Germans. Considered possible – WSC to action.
5. Get American involvement in saving remaining European democracies (Sweden, Greece, Turkey, Ireland). Considered unlikely – Butler and the Holy Fox wary of FDR.
6. Shame this Government into realising its obligations on points 1 – 5.
Churchill, unhappily, realised that Item 2 was already lost, agreed between Butler and Ciano in their Villa meetings. Points 1 and 3 were vital, and Churchill knew the nation would support him in whatever he did to save Britain’s army. Points 5 and 6 could not be enacted without support. But Point 4 chilled Churchill’s soul - he simply declared that the foreigners were British, thereby protecting thousands. He intended to use these exiles as specialist troops, going ahead to wreak havoc in occupied Europe. Providing the treaty didn't work; this damn thing had to be challenged. No doubt, Chruchill knew, there would be some minor territorial concession that would be palatable to a defeatist Conservative Party. But then, what? More concessions, more permissions, more 'blind-eye' tactics to the obvious. This was a cursed treaty, a treaty, Churchill knew, that he would fight.
Throwing himself into his chair he looked at a now out of date article on the war, showing a defiant Churchill firing cigars into a Wagnerian Germany. Chuckling, Churchill mustered his defiance and went into battle.
[Game Effect] – Churchill is the only figure in the Cabinet passionately opposed to the ceasefire. Eden, slightly more pragmatic, would probably play a “wait and see” game, watching events until the final terms were agreed. Given forum rules I don’t want to go into a discussion about Point 4, but it gives Winston a private army at the very least! Winston is probably right when he says that he is reliant upon gaining suitable assistance for Point 2 - I'm just sure how he would be able to muster a motley band of 'hawks' given the 'dove tendencies now developing.
Next up, the ratification debate begins...
El Pip: Attlee's behaviour thus far has been honourable. Typically plodding but honourable.
Arilou: Concur.
Trekaddict: The basic problem that we have is that even in reality the defeatists were in the ascendant. It took the "miracle" of Dunkirk and some inspired War Cabinet rhetoric to get Britain ready for total war.
Eams: I think that is more plausible than some random (probably Trekaddict inspired) coup.
Nathan Madien: They'll still be trying...
Trekaddict: That is one possibility.
Phargle: Indeed, the impact of a British settlement with Germany is simply huge.
I'd agree with Churchill's list, thinking about how it will turn out;
1. - Probably OK. Halifax cannot be that stupid. Disarming would leave Britain utterly vulnerable
2. - I worry about, because Halifax is that stupid. However as I recall Hitler was keen on a deal whereby Britain kept it's Empire but gave up any influence in Europe. Not sure what the Italian demands are but I suspect Germany could keep them in line if necessary. The only problem is I'm not sure Butler had enough spine to insist on it, if he cravenly hands things out I'm sure the Axis would take it.
3. - Probably least important if we're honest, the RAF and BEF need re-equipping with better kit anyway and I suspect most (but not all) German kit is better than the lost British kit at this stage.
4. - Big concerns. Halifax is enough of a cowardly turd to sell anyone out to save his own skin. We've established he has no pride, honour, self-respect or bravery, he's more than capable of doing it and then, which is most damning of all, not being bothered by doing it.
5. - Very unlikely. Why would the US concern itself?
6. - Impossible. Halifax has no shame, only very brown trousers and an empty head where his brain should be.
1. - Probably OK. Halifax cannot be that stupid. Disarming would leave Britain utterly vulnerable
2. - I worry about, because Halifax is that stupid. However as I recall Hitler was keen on a deal whereby Britain kept it's Empire but gave up any influence in Europe. Not sure what the Italian demands are but I suspect Germany could keep them in line if necessary. The only problem is I'm not sure Butler had enough spine to insist on it, if he cravenly hands things out I'm sure the Axis would take it.
3. - Probably least important if we're honest, the RAF and BEF need re-equipping with better kit anyway and I suspect most (but not all) German kit is better than the lost British kit at this stage.
4. - Big concerns. Halifax is enough of a cowardly turd to sell anyone out to save his own skin. We've established he has no pride, honour, self-respect or bravery, he's more than capable of doing it and then, which is most damning of all, not being bothered by doing it.
5. - Very unlikely. Why would the US concern itself?
6. - Impossible. Halifax has no shame, only very brown trousers and an empty head where his brain should be.
I'm dying to know the results of the peace dealings... If the situation now is bad, it could be worse.
Hermann Goering was a flyer. Is it enough?
Hermann Goering was a flyer. Is it enough?
I'm dying to know the results of the peace dealings... If the situation now is bad, it could be worse.
Hermann Goering was a flyer. Is it enough?
He's too fat. Not even the A-380 could lift him.
Lenient terms towards France could result in an outstanding diplomatic success for the Reich.
It could use the British negotiated terms of surrender to drive a last wedge between France and the UK, and with the BEF pulling out as the Battle of France was to decide the very fate of France not too many French politicians would contest nor resist German cries of British treason.
From that point, a vanquished France would at least show very hostile neutrality towards its erstwhile ally, or might even embark upon a new course of allying with Germany, depending on how much of a French army the Reich would trust/tolerate to its Wwst.
Naturally, the state of the current German economy might dictate the terms of the alternative, me thinks. If Germany is near-bankrupt, then it might be plunder after all. If it's awash with cash, then
