General Discussion

[Mukashi]

Running a hands-off game now with Kongo, since I managed to get EU3View working without any errors on SRI, but I'll go back, start that game again and check. I don't recall seeing any other events prior to that in the logs before, but I might have missed something. I only noticed something was wrong because some HRE states I'd been bribing suddenly went down to 0 relations without any explanation.

EDIT: Ah ha! There was something in there.

Game[messagehandler.h:224]: 18 January, 1438 Event: 'Declare bankruptcy' in 'Financial Collapse' for Bishopric Bremen.
Game[messagehandler.h:224]: 18 January, 1438 Bishopric Bremen declared independence from Frankfurt.

[Helius]

Good. Just what I suspected. This is a crude but necessary workaround for dealing with the AI bankruptcy death spiral, caused by overextended navies. Bishopric Bremen is a prime candidate for this. By making someone else inherit/release the Bishopric, we wipe its entire army and navy off the map. Per event, we also reset its inflation to 0. At the same time, another AI country may get a chance to vassalize and/or annex the bankruptee, in exchange for shouldering some of their acrued inflation.

[Mukashi]

So, working as intended then? Interesting solution. I might be a bit worried with just how many countries are getting it however. In that first game where I noticed it, pretty much every Hansa state went through it in the span of about 2-3 years.

One other issue I wanted to bring up was that I'm starting to think there might be a slight bug in the system deciding the Emperor's Rival. By some fluke, I inherited my rival (no PU, just a straight inherit). Since then, no rival has risen to challenge me whatsoever, even with a new ruler. How long should it take for a new rival to rise?

EDIT: One other thing before I forget. I notice that some Army advisors (Grand Captain, whatever that one is who gives Discipline) aren't usable for the Imperial Army decision. Any particular reason why these ones specifically are excluded?

EDIT 2: Ah, another issue has cropped up with the solution to the death spiral. In this game, Lorraine had taken Franche-Comte from Burgundy, held it for quite some time, and showed no intention of giving it back. Burgundy went bankrupt, then declared independence from Lorraine, and had its province back...though lost Zeeland in the bargain. Lorraine will presumably now have to go through the whole deal with me getting angry at his illegal ownership of the province now, which might make things a bit difficult. Seen another one with England declaring independence from Scotland, losing all its provinces in Europe in the process.

[Helius]

1) The rival flag will be cleared up by a maintenance event after at most two years
2) I'll add the missing rare army advisors
3) The anti-bankruptcy mechanism needs some fine-tuning. Its frequency can be explained by it being a game you started some time back. In fresh games, inflation should not reach such heights, to begin with.

[Mukashi]

1) It's been at least a 15-20 years now. Haven't seen it cleared up in the log, though I'd have to check the save file to be sure, but there's certainly no rival since then, even though some electors have since declared for me. Of course, there might be something else at play here. Even if there was a rival, there's no way they'd be elected, since through a series of what I can only call amazing flukes over the last 10-15 years of game time, or just a very weird RNG....in addition to inheriting the Palentine, I have PU's with Bohemia (Even flukier, that one didn't have a succession war. They regained their elector position a decade ago now, well after the start of the PU), Saxony, Brandenberg and Milan (Who were made an elector right at the start of the game to fill in for the missing elector Bohemia). I also had Cologne as my vassel for a number of years after they got on the wrong side of a war on a HRE state. Not really the kind of situation that's worth coding out a specific solution for if that is the cause, is it? ^^;;; What does a state need to declare itself my rival exactly?

2) I didn't realize they were rare. ^^;;; I've been seeing quite a lot of them actually, not just in the pool but also ones arriving in my provinces, and only one Army Reformer (and one star at that) the whole time. Philosophers have been rare to non-existent as well.

3) This one's a game I started under the next to most recent version of the game, not some time back. Abandoned that earlier one with the Imperial Army. Just got that decision again, so I'll see how it goes this time. Did get quite a few votes already come in, including some votes against, so it should be easier for me to follow this time.
I've actually been restarting most of my games when you've released a new version, so I wouldn't have to many problems with version incompatibility. To be fair though, since that span of 2-3 years, I haven't seen any further bankruptcies, so it's perhaps not as frequent as I'd feared, it's just that AI with similar cashflow and goals all went and screwed themselves up around the same time, which should probably be expected really.

[Mukashi]

Speaking of those PU's, here's another one for you. What would cause 2 unions with high relations (both being boosted by events for them supporting the emperor), 1 with union_2=yes and 1 with union_3=yes to dissolve on the death of the king? I inherited both Bohemia and Brandenburg, which sent my prestige tanking into the negatives. Is that what did me in?

[Don_Quigleone]

PU's dissolve if you have negative Prestige, so keep that Prestige up!

[Mukashi]

My prestige had been in the high 90's at the time. Inheriting even one country just kills your prestige. Not sure if that's working as intended as a way to keep too many inheritances happening or not.

[Helius]

What does a state need to declare itself my rival exactly?

There probably isn't a country strong enough in the Empire. That would explain the absence of a rival.

2) I didn't realize they were rare. ^^;;; I've been seeing quite a lot of them actually, not just in the pool but also ones arriving in my provinces, and only one Army Reformer (and one star at that) the whole time. Philosophers have been rare to non-existent as well.

Hmmm. Must look into that.

3) This one's a game I started under the next to most recent version of the game

The newest tricks re. AI bankruptcy are new in the very latest version, only.

[Ignudo]

one quick question:
can anybody please tell me how I can remove the baltic provinces from the HRE (which file to manipulate).

at Helius:
maybe you can explain your reasons for keeping the baltic provinces in the HRE.

[Helius]

Why should they be removed? They are in the HRE in vanilla.
I do treat them differently for the purpose of the give-it-back events/sanctions, to reflect that eventually they came to be Russian, Polish, and/or Swedish.

[Ignudo]

but there is a way to remove them, right? (not hardcoded)

I find this feature pretty annoying in you play Brandenburg. Last time I could have easily vassalized Prussia (after Teutonic Order converted) to eventually become Prussia myself (I hope that's not only a MMP feature) but couldn't do so because vassalizing 3 HRE provinces comes with a hefty drop in HRE relations. So the fact that this pretty worthless and totally remote provinces are treated like HRE provinces hampers a historically quite plausible strategy. Besides, a powerful Sweden seems to be rather reluctant to acquire these provinces in war but instead takes Livland (i think) to which it has no land connection without Estland (HRE protected). So I'm not quite sure if the system you implemented to make this provinces easier to acquire for some countries really works out. Likewise Lithunia, which is quite powerful early on, shows the same limitations.
So I guess it would just be the easiest solution to drop them from the HRE to let the balance of power during game decide their destiny. I also think it wouldn't be an offense against historical accuracy as, to my knowledge, there has never been a war or any serious sanctions due to the occupation of this provinces by non HRE powers.

[Ignudo]

found out how to delete provinces from HRE. In case anyone else is interesed. Just open the province file in the history/provinces-folder an change hre = yes into hre = no.

besides I've seen that Livland is actualy an HRE province from the beginning. So your system seems to work (my bad). Still I think it is still worth to consider to include further exceptions (like for example Brandenburg and Lithunia) or to remove them altogether. It would really add historical plausibility and improve game dynamics. Another idea could be to remove them by event when Teutonic Order changes into Prussia (I guess the HRE should be much less inclined to protect Protestant lands).

[Helius]

Well, "because it stands in the way of specific expansion strategies" does not make a compelling argument for me. There would have to be larger concerns of historical accuracy and/or gameplay involved.

But thanks for sharing your thought, nonetheless!

[Mukashi]

Here's a suggestion you might like a little more Helius. In the same manner as an overlord can demand their vassal become part of their realm through a spy mission, or a vassal might ask for their overlord to annex them through event with high enough admin power, would it be possible/appropriate/historically plausible to extend this to lesser partners in a personal union? Perhaps only ones which have been in partnership for more than 1 ruler's lifetime, and/or a minimum number of years, and with similar requirements as for annexing vassals with admin efficiency, more restrictive estates, decentralization penalties, and so forth.

EDIT: Speaking of vassals...I'm noticing that countries which became vassals as part of bankrupcy don't seem to ever get proper independence from their overlords. For instance, I demanded Brabrant release Luxembourg after they got on the wrong side of me in a war. Got the following 2 events, but Luxembourg remained a vassal to them afterwards. Not really sure if vassals are supposed to have vassals of their own for that matter. ^^;
Game[messagehandler.h:224]: 1 October, 1506 Event: 'Independence!' in Luxembourg.
Game[messagehandler.h:224]: 1 October, 1506 Event: 'Our Rights Recognized' in Luxembourg.

[Don_Quigleone]

If one wished to attempt to merge Dei Gratia and SRI, what would one need to do? Would the main issue be the common folder?

[Helius]

Here's a suggestion you might like a little more Helius. In the same manner as an overlord can demand their vassal become part of their realm through a spy mission, or a vassal might ask for their overlord to annex them through event with high enough admin power, would it be possible/appropriate/historically plausible to extend this to lesser partners in a personal union? Perhaps only ones which have been in partnership for more than 1 ruler's lifetime, and/or a minimum number of years, and with similar requirements as for annexing vassals with admin efficiency, more restrictive estates, decentralization penalties, and so forth.

I don't like the idea. A vassalization is a sign of weakness on the part of the minor. They either figured they needed your protection, and became a voluntary vassal, or you force-vassalized them. That is different from a union, where the minor partner remains a fully sovereign entity, only the sovereign is shared with another country. For that reason, the process of integration should not be as convenient as with the vassals.

Administrative Efficiency is already a factor in minor-major relations in PU's, anyway - the "Act of Union" requires the overlord to have high AE, and low AE means a union can easily break (b/c your country could not 'digest' an inheritance).

EDIT: Speaking of vassals...I'm noticing that countries which became vassals as part of bankrupcy don't seem to ever get proper independence from their overlords. For instance, I demanded Brabrant release Luxembourg after they got on the wrong side of me in a war. Got the following 2 events, but Luxembourg remained a vassal to them afterwards. Not really sure if vassals are supposed to have vassals of their own for that matter. ^^;
Game[messagehandler.h:224]: 1 October, 1506 Event: 'Independence!' in Luxembourg.
Game[messagehandler.h:224]: 1 October, 1506 Event: 'Our Rights Recognized' in Luxembourg.

Just to get this straight: Luxembourg became a vassal of Brabant's in exchange for Brabant taking over Luxembourg's debt. Then, you forced Brabant to end Luxembourg's vassalization, but the peace-deal devassalization was not carried out by the game? The two events you quoted presuppose that Luxembourg had, in fact, become an independent state again. What exactly happened?

[Helius]

If one wished to attempt to merge Dei Gratia and SRI, what would one need to do? Would the main issue be the common folder?

Please read through this thread - someone already produced an intergrated version, albeit with older versions of both mods.

[Mukashi]

I don't like the idea. A vassalization is a sign of weakness on the part of the minor. They either figured they needed your protection, and became a voluntary vassal, or you force-vassalized them. That is different from a union, where the minor partner remains a fully sovereign entity, only the sovereign is shared with another country. For that reason, the process of integration should not be as convenient as with the vassals.

Administrative Efficiency is already a factor in minor-major relations in PU's, anyway - the "Act of Union" requires the overlord to have high AE, and low AE means a union can easily break (b/c your country could not 'digest' an inheritance).

Fair enough. I thought there might be justification for it where the PU has continued for maybe 100 years or more, or some such. I would've expected any such inheritances through these methods to have much much more punishing estates than the inherit would otherwise if the player was patient as well.

Just to get this straight: Luxembourg became a vassal of Brabant's in exchange for Brabant taking over Luxembourg's debt. Then, you forced Brabant to end Luxembourg's vassalization, but the peace-deal devassalization was not carried out by the game? The two events you quoted presuppose that Luxembourg had, in fact, become an independent state again. What exactly happened?

I'm not sure if the peace-deal de-vassalization was carried out by the game or not, though I'm assuming so, in which case Luxembourg appears to have reverted to being a vassal of Brabant immediately after having been granted their freedom, though it's never mentioned in the log. If I was mistaken and didn't ask for their release like I thought I did, they still would have had to become independent for these events to fire, as you observed. When I checked them on the 2nd of October, seeing those events in the log for that day, they were already back to being Brabant's vassal, with nothing in the log about why.

[Helius]

Do you still have the log and save game? If so, I'd like to take a look under the hood, to hopefully find our what happened.