Magan Mundi Sucks!!

[Alojzy]

With the exception of the digging for mineral events, they are balanced. Those digging for mineral events will be fixed for 1.25.

There are already events to give explorers. You already have the range options to decrease naval attrition. You have a national idea that increases your naval attrition dramatically. I find the current naval attrition too low, tbh.

I think you missunderstood me. I know what we have. And yes, I agree that naval attrition is too low, in fact what I ask for is it possible to rise it.

My point was that present system is pretty much (correct me if I'm wrong):

- pay crazy amount of money (take loans and such), but you get explorer (that is so powerful tool - unless really unlucky) that you can pretty much get about 50 years of new world exploration in 5 years period,

- pay less and keep option for event repop after a long while (was it 25 years?),

- don't pay and forget about the thing.

What I miss here are partial solutions, like rising chance for getting explorer depending on my investment, OR rising chance to lose explorer if my investments drop. Right now, it's either "I'm all in", "I hold" or "I pass".

[ubik]

I think you missunderstood me. I know what we have. And yes, I agree that naval attrition is too low, in fact what I ask for is it possible to rise it.

My point was that present system is pretty much (correct me if I'm wrong):

- pay crazy amount of money (take loans and such), but you get explorer (that is so powerful tool - unless really unlucky) that you can pretty much get about 50 years of new world exploration in 5 years period,

- pay less and keep option for event repop after a long while (was it 25 years?),

- don't pay and forget about the thing.

What I miss here are partial solutions, like rising chance for getting explorer depending on my investment, OR rising chance to lose explorer if my investments drop. Right now, it's either "I'm all in", "I hold" or "I pass".

Ah ok! You are talking about a redesigned discovery system!

Not for Magna Mundi Platinum 1.

[nalivayko]

Obviously, there is a problem somewhere but we may very well share responsibilities with Paradox. What is your fortress size?

Default 1453 - 4000 men. The problem is not the fortress size - the Ottomans and Candar only landed 1,000 each.

So, it's either:

A. AI is dumb, period
B. Vanilla AI is not suited to fight on higher fortress levels in MMP. Highly unlikely to me, since vanilla has higher fortress levels later in the game.
C... See A?

[nalivayko]

Speaking of naval academies. I too thought they were overpriced, until I've tried one. In a combination with right ideas and decisions they did provide me with excellent leadership, love the events they carry with them. The deal-breaker was re-financing them at lower cost later, of course.

[ubik]

Default 1453 - 4000 men. The problem is not the fortress size - the Ottomans and Candar only landed 1,000 each.

So, it's either:

A. AI is dumb, period
B. Vanilla AI is not suited to fight on higher fortress levels in MMP. Highly unlikely to me, since vanilla has higher fortress levels later in the game.
C... See A?

Yep, this is a vanilla issue.

[steveh11]

Basically, we are giving tradition and/or generals/admirals. You probably never need again to buy a general/admiral... or maybe you buy one, but a truly good one. In a word, we are offering you LEADERSHIP.

As for the "relatively short time" we are talking about 50 years. And after those 50 years you'll get a chance to fund it again at a lower price. Finally, it is not "How many times" but a quarter of your GNP.

Basically, it all boils down to writing without knowing the subject matter.

"years_of_income = -0.75"

So I exaggerated a little, but still: 75% of the ***total income** of the country for something that's going to disappear in half a century seems way overpriced to me. Why would it cost more than (for example) a manufactuary?

Unless as a player you're convinced that you'll be able to grow the economy at a **huge** rate to cover the costs, it's not really a viable option. Or so it seems to this humble user.

Your mod, so your call. I don't have to like that part of it to enjoy playing the rest of it.

[Vormaerin]

Wow, and here I thought that the Army Academy was one of the best values in the game. I suppose if my income were in the thousands or something, it might not be. But all those free generals more than pays for the cost of Academy in my experience.

[steveh11]

Wow, and here I thought that the Army Academy was one of the best values in the game. I suppose if my income were in the thousands or something, it might not be. But all those free generals more than pays for the cost of Academy in my experience.

Goes to show that it takes all sorts... :-)

Not saying you're wrong. Try creating one in a late game scenario, and see if you feel the same, though.

But that just feeds my point - why SHOULD it cost more?

Steve.

[ubik]

"years_of_income = -0.75"

Its 25%.

	academy_army = {
		potential = {

			has_country_flag = player_controlled
			NOT = { has_country_modifier = Army_Academy }


			OR = {
				has_country_flag = medium_power
				has_country_flag = major_power
				has_country_flag = great_power
			}

				

		}

		allow = {

			OR = {
				MIL = 8
				army_tradition = 0.50

				AND = {
					MIL = 6
					
					OR = {
						advisor = army_reformer
						advisor = army_organiser
					}
				}
			}


		}

		effect = {

			prestige = 0.01

			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "Army_Academy"
				duration = 18250 
	        	}

			set_country_flag = professional_generals

			years_of_income = -0.25

		}
		
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 0

		}
	}

So I exaggerated a little, but still: 75% of the ***total income** of the country for something that's going to disappear in half a century seems way overpriced to me. Why would it cost more than (for example) a manufactuary?

In Venice it costs me around 250 to build, so it is about a quarter of a manufactory. And I am the proud owner of 4 monopolies (going over 5-6 merchants placed, so, not firm monopolies ), plus strong presences in two other CoTs (3 to 5 merchants). Also own all my starting proinces, plus Cyprus, Naples, Apulia and Calabria.

Unless as a player you're convinced that you'll be able to grow the economy at a **huge** rate to cover the costs, it's not really a viable option. Or so it seems to this humble user.

How can you give a value to military tradition and leader quality?

How much are you willing to pay for 1 point of land tradition? How much are you willing to pay for 2 points of shock?

Is this not subjective in the extreme that turns the exercise fo finding a right price impossible?

It is obvious if you will never be involved in a war, spending money on academies is an horrible investment. Otherwise...

Your mod, so your call. I don't have to like that part of it to enjoy playing the rest of it.

Now that I showed you that it is 25% I hope you'll enjoy it.

Have you build one to check its effects in game?

[steveh11]

OPSSS! SORRY STEVE! INSTEAD OF REPLYING TO YOUR MESSAGE I EDITED IT!

I said "both Naval and Army academies", which is 75% - the code fragment *I* snipped. :-)

That is the event. As the event has looser conditions, it is more expensive. I am talking about the decisions. Through decisions, you can get both for 50% of your GNP. Hardly an option for my playstyle, unless I have a BIG warchest.

If building as Venice cost you 250 (presumably for just an Army one?)

Navy one, actually.

what did you have to go without just to build it?

A Fort level 3 or 0.4% inflation. That was exactly how I though. I got the inflation.


[QUOTE]
Why should someone playing as (for example) France in 1800 with a much larger economy pay so much more for one? If they only cost 250 *then* (plus inflation) then ***of course*** they'd be a good buy.[QUOTE]


Why would France wait until 1800 to build it? To make it more expensive?

...But ok, I loaded up France in 1800. It costs 840 gold to build an academy. Notice that minting 0.25 gives you 1100 gold extra per year at the starting conditions. This on top of the 525 you earn from taxes. I don't think it is that hard to build or that expensive for what it does.

Suppose there was a building that gave you the possibility of getting for free or recruiting top admirals/generals for 1000 gold? Who would call it a bad investment? I think it is a better investment than most buildings, to be honest.

As I said, it's a playing style variation. I can adapt, and I probably will. After all, a good healthy dose of high inflation while paying for one of these (repatedly) never hurt anyone, right? ;-)

Ah, ok! If you consider 0.4% high inflation, that explains something.

Just to clarify: This mod is so much worth playing (and playing around with) that I'm really, really enjoying it. The relative cost 'thing' is a minor nitpick, on a scale (to me) of the map controversy. Ubik and the whole team are to be congratulated for taking a superb game and polishing it so well.

Sure, I know your overall opinion about the mod. But this specific critique doesn't glue well with your other comments. One may not use it, that's playstyle, but considering it expensive in an absolute sense when you have manufactories that as we see are more expensive for the entire game with comparable advantages (and I am not so sure about that) cannot be considered expensive.

[ubik]

I said "both Naval and Army academies", which is 75% - the code fragment *I* snipped. :-)

That is the event. As the event has looser conditions, it is more expensive. I am talking about the decisions. Through decisions, you can get both for 50% of your GNP. Hardly an option for my playstyle, unless I have a BIG warchest.

If building as Venice cost you 250 (presumably for just an Army one?)

Navy one, actually.

what did you have to go without just to build it?

A Fort level 3 or 0.4% inflation. That was exactly how I though. I got the inflation.

Why should someone playing as (for example) France in 1800 with a much larger economy pay so much more for one? If they only cost 250 *then* (plus inflation) then ***of course*** they'd be a good buy.

Why would France wait until 1800 to build it? To make it more expensive?

...But ok, I loaded up France in 1800. It costs 840 gold to build an academy. Notice that minting 0.25 gives you 1100 gold extra per year at the starting conditions. This on top of the 525 you earn from taxes. I don't think it is that hard to build or that expensive for what it does.

Suppose there was a building that gave you the possibility of getting for free or recruiting top admirals/generals for 1000 gold? Who would call it a bad investment? I think it is a better investment than most buildings, to be honest.

As I said, it's a playing style variation. I can adapt, and I probably will. After all, a good healthy dose of high inflation while paying for one of these (repatedly) never hurt anyone, right? ;-)

Ah, ok! If you consider 0.4% high inflation, that explains something.

Just to clarify: This mod is so much worth playing (and playing around with) that I'm really, really enjoying it. The relative cost 'thing' is a minor nitpick, on a scale (to me) of the map controversy. Ubik and the whole team are to be congratulated for taking a superb game and polishing it so well.

Sure, I know your overall opinion about the mod. But this specific critique doesn't glue well with your other comments. One may not use it, that's playstyle, but considering it expensive in an absolute sense when you have manufactories that as we see are more expensive for the entire game with comparable advantages (and I am not so sure about that) cannot be considered expensive.

[DavidsonShdw]

Every time I back a pretender to the throne I lose 4 stability and my king doesn't die.

Every single time.

EVERY ONE!

Its a little frustrating.

[ubik]

Every time I back a pretender to the throne I lose 4 stability and my king doesn't die.

Every single time.

EVERY ONE!

Its a little frustrating.

It is a *very* powerful effect. Do it only as an emergency measure.

[DavidsonShdw]

It is a *very* powerful effect. Do it only as an emergency measure.

I know, I'm just commenting on my bad luck.

[extox]

Man this is a HORRIBLE mod!






I love this thread. Speaks well to the MMP modders sense of humor.

[steveh11]

...but considering it expensive in an absolute sense when you have manufactories that as we see are more expensive for the entire game with comparable advantages (and I am not so sure about that) cannot be considered expensive.

I consider myself educated. I guess I just wasn't 'fiscally adventurous' enough. :-)

Thanks for the your time and (probably rather fraught) patience, Ubik.

[Cortes_R]

Hmm, I don`t know, academies seem rather reasonably priced to me. Sometimes it's not easy to find money to build them, but if your international position urges you to do it, then you`ll find money.

As 2 province heavily trading Hostein I managed to build an academy
and a Refinery in late 1400s, and Academy was 149d... Very costly for one who gets less than 20d from census, but it still remains good investment if you happen to have money REALLY need the bonus for your military strength they give (I got money partly from minting partly from war reparations).

I don`t think academies were designed to be built by everyone with spare cash, but rather by those who need theirs effects and ready to suffer for them a little

EDIT: argh, I forgot the thread's name...

[Zug]

Greatest sticky ever.

[DavidsonShdw]

The Golden Age event that can trigger with a great monarch and high centralization is probably unbalancing.

Specifically, the +2 stability option is really much better than any of the other choices and, IMO, the Military one could do with a bigger bonus to offset the increase in cost for building units (a constant + to tradition at some rate?).

There, I've complained about an event that is too awesome.

(Oh and in previous versions the Jesuit universities were -insane- given their cost compared to normal factories. Haven't gotten any yet as Catholic Japan yet and haven't played a Catholic nation other than that in MMP.)

[naggy]

I hate the Welcome to Magna Mundi Platinum event. It's way too unbalancing.