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Thread: Magan Mundi Sucks!!

  1. #501
    Project Lead (EU4) Paradox Dev Team Wiz's Avatar
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    ubik, you really should stop posting in the Magan Mundi thread, you're stealing unik's show

  2. #502
    Project Lead (EU4) Paradox Dev Team Wiz's Avatar
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    I think Sweden/Norway need a decision to colonize the place, make it require decent ADM, to not be in a union (to give Sweden preference) and some ducats on hand, that way you can get rid of the colonist modifier for the AI too.

    As for Sweden's colony in Delaware, it was never big enough to be considered anything other than a trade post and its decline and Dutch takeover are a pretty stellar example as to why only the Atlantic powers became colonizers in the new world.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by ZappyVlaams View Post
    Well, there is a problem I have with this mod and that's all about national ideas and colonisation. Let's take Sweden as an example. Sweden has a colony in Delaware in 1648, but in order to be able to colonise, you need quite a few national ideas, or at least one to get that one colonist needed to found Delaware. In 1648, Sweden starts off with no national ideas with regards to colonisation. According to that logic, Sweden never could have founded it.

    I understand that you want to limit colonisation, seeing how over the top it was in vanilla and yes, big players on the colonial field shouldn't be too powerfull on a military front. But then again, consider that having colonies damages the capacity of your army anyway, since you need troops all over the place and at least give nations the national ideas needed to colonise when you start with several colonies. I think giving all Christian nations 0.5 colonists per year should do to the trick keep it realistic. How else would you expect Germany to found several colonies in Africa if you follow this system
    I think Germany would be a poor example to use. Their period of colonization and imperialism began after the end of MM. Specifically during the scramble for Africa during the latter half the the 19th century. I really don't believe that any Christian nation should get any modifier. With the changes coming in MMP2 and the numerous ways in which Ubik described that countries can get colonists and explore there are enough paths to represent Sweden's colonization attempt in the new world. You still have to commit serious cash, the right ideas or force your vassals to support you if you want to colonize.

    I do agree with Wiz that the Swedes or Norwegians should have some event that allows them to colonize Lappland (and only Lappland) for historical accuracy. Beyond that though I don't think the Scandinavian nation's should get much help.

  4. #504
    Thanks for clearing that up, I understand it now.

  5. #505
    Sorry to jump on the bandwagon ZappyVlaams I wasn't trying to beat a dead horse.

  6. #506

    What I like about MMP and few criticisms

    These are meant as criticisms in the good sense. Overall MMP has a lot going for it and its obvious that a lot of love went into its creation. I came to the mod after a long hiatus from EU3 having been more than a little disappointed with the vanilla release. I was hoping for the equal of VIP or Core which took Victoria and HOI from flawed but interesting to brilliant. MMP is a great mod and seems close to this but I am not sure its there quite yet. I have great hopes for MMP2 though.

    Please note, that I've only played one game of MMP so far, as Moscowy and let me know if my understanding of the game mechanics are mistaken.

    Some of the things I loved were the following:
    -Some of the country specific events add a great deal of flavor to the game.
    -The HRE is not gobbled up by France and Austria - the HRE mechanics are amazing
    -The challenge though I find it frustrating how it is imposed at times
    -The ability to set taxes at the province level
    -The admin efficiency modifiers for large empires
    -Converting culture/religion is more difficult (though it is too difficult)
    -The meeting the nobles events that happen when a new king is declared
    -The pope related events, though they don't seem to have an effect on Russia

    The things I didn't like as much are the following:

    - The game seems to penalize you for not being in the center with your sliders which seems to defeat having different policies for different countries. For example I get negative events related to Mercantilism, but from a policy perspective there is no reason I would embrace free trade as a country not researching trade technology with a single COT, except to avoid these events.

    -I think the penalties to centralization are harsh. I think the idea is that centralization removes the independence of the provinces and therefore makes them more likely to revolt. But my feeling on centralized vs descentralized is really intended to indicate whether a country has an effective central government or is more of a confederation of more of less autonomous states. The difference is between the United States and the European Union. There has never been a large empire that did not have some degree of provincial governance and autonomy. The difference is how beholden those provinces are to the central government and how efficient are the means for communicating the central government's desire. In this I think Paradox had it right in that centralization is always a good thing because its what makes the difference between a nation and a feudal state or a loose alliance of tribal groups such as the Golden Horde. There should be heavy revolt risk penalties for centralizing as you are disrupting the status quo and established power interests but none for being centralized. Similarly there should be no tech penalties for being centralized. The concept of tradition and innovation already I think already covers this. Chinese were centralized and stagnated, not because they were centralized but because of other aspects of their society. The French made arguably the first central nation state and innovation flourished. As a side note, it would seem centralization should affect Administrative Efficiency.

    - The fact that you have a negative conversion rate for Muslims if you are Christian without Divine Supremacy doesn't seem right. While it is undoubtedly too easy to convert in vanilla it is far too hard in MMP. In my mind "missionaries" represent not only only individual missionaries trying to convert, but the efforts of the state to eradicate or drive underground a religion - remove its leaders and institutions thus reducing the likelihood of revolt. Secular leaders when dealing with both sides of the Protestant reformation did this within the lifetime of a single leader. Russia when it expanded into the Tartar lands or the Ottomans into Europe did not experience religious revolts for 150+ years. A better solution I would think would be an expansion of the multiple conversion system. While it would be virtually impossible to completely destroy a religion in a province, you could certainly drive it sufficiently underground that it does not cause much trouble on a day to day basis.

    -Events destabilizing a country are fine but many of the generic events don't always seem correct and would be better if they took context into consideration.

    Right now most events seem more or less to fall in 3 categories: they destabilize you, they add to revolt risk, they cost taxes. Sometime though it seems these events are used as a kind of stick to keep your stability at 0 or 1, to keep your sliders in the center, etc. I think the thought is that this was a tumultuous time and you shouldn't have a stability of 3 all the time for instance, and that extreme policies are bad.

    But I think this may be an instance of MMP being a little too gamey. Stability hits are fine if they are contextual but should not occur so often randomly. In other words if you are trying to become like France and modernize then expect to have a stability of 0 or 1. If on the other hand you are the Ming and don't change anything (stay traditional and centralized) then you might spend 100+ years at stability 3.

    The kind of events I would like to see are contextual. For example if I take a close minded traditional society such as Russia and keep moving the sliders to innovative and free subjects, then for a period after each move I can be hit with a number of potential events that reflect the disruption I am causing to my society (the nobles making demands etc). These events will try to make me reverse course or suffer the effects of instability. In this way I am penalized for decisions I've made if I persist with the shakeup of my country.

    In this case, penalties for centralization, becoming innovative etc. make sense. The player will experience stability hits more often than the AI because they are more likely to transform their country. The important thing though, is that these should wear off after a period perhaps 20-50 years (1 to 2 generations). Then the events essentially drop away (assuming I don't keep changing things). The change becomes the new normal. There are not nobles demanding privileges they lost 100+ years ago, which no one living can remember.

    As it stands, don't think this is in MMP. I know its not trivial to script this (I have a programming background) but as it stands I sometimes feel that the negative events are essentially random with an added chance if I am stable or outside the 'sweet spot' in the center of the slider. But it seems to me that stability represents just that, stability. I should have my stability primarily reduced as a result of changes I am making to the country (sliders, national ideas, policies), not to keep me from stability 3. This way as a player, I could go through a tumultuous period of change and potentially afterwards emerge as a relatively stable country (what ultimately happened in history). That's not to say there shouldn't be random events that cream you, just that there should be less of uniformly negative events that keep hitting you continually seemingly without reason.

    Also some of the events as it is seem a little off from a realism standpoint. To give an examples: there is an event that fires apparently related to the mercantalist (moral) side where a merchant declares himself the trade czar. As Russia with only one cot and 5 traders, generating 1/10 of my income, this event has the ability to cost me prestige and cause 'bureaucratic paralysis', or 1 or 2 stability hit. This doesn't seem very realistic given that I have very little reliance on trade. Now if I was Venice I could understand it.

    A lot of the events are similar to this. The mongol raid event for example allows me to build watch towers but the province still gets a 20% revolt hit. This doesn't seem to make sense. The sovereign comes to the aid of the subjects terrorized by an outside power, so why would they revolt? Now if the watch towers cost more than 10 ducats and the tsar chooses to do nothing, then I can see an increase in revolt risk. What would be even better is if, using the In Nomine provincial decisions, I had a choice to be pro-active and build watch-towers.

    Another event I'm not fond of is the 'taxes are unfair because other provinces don't have my tax rate'. While I am not opposed to having revolt risk events fire related to taxes fire, this seems to fire too often even if nearly all provinces in a country have the same tax rate except for a few recent conquests.

    In reality, provinces were often taxed at different rates and people in some societies were so socially immobile they didn't know, and in other societies might simply emigrate to a lower taxed province (one of the driving forces behind colonization). This would be a much better mechanism really. Have the events tied to whether I have serfdom or free people and if I have free subjects fire migration events more often as people flee your cruel taxes to the frontier, or colonies where you have low taxes (kind of like the migration system in Victoria). That's not to say revolt events shouldn't fire, just that they shouldn't fire as often.

    Anyway, this post was much longer than I planned on only because there is so much that is really great in MMP and I have high hopes for MMP2.

    Overall the thing I like about the mod is that its more historical and more challenging. The thing I don't like is that I sometimes feel as if the challenge is imposed on me, particularly by some of the events. What would be great is if these events could be a little less random and tied more closely to the policies I am implementing for a country.

    I know this project has been a labor of love for those who worked on it, so please do not take any criticism as a detraction from what is a very great mod.

  7. #507
    Colonel Titus Ultor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spk99 View Post
    For example I get negative events related to Mercantilism, but from a policy perspective there is no reason I would embrace free trade as a country not researching trade technology with a single COT, except to avoid these events.
    There are negative and positive events for both sides of every (afaik) slider, with more extreme events happening at the extreme ends of the slider. Some, for instance the penalties for extreme serfdom, are far harsher than the positives -- I believe these are being balanced for MMP2. Still, one should expect to see a slow trend towards liberalization through both the stick and carrot (as historically was generally the case). There have been a few threads in here discussing the various sorts of slider stategies, and many players use very extreme slider positions from the get-go. Extreme slider positions are also required for modernization.

    In this I think Paradox had it right in that centralization is always a good thing because its what makes the difference between a nation and a feudal state or a loose alliance of tribal groups such as the Golden Horde. There should be heavy revolt risk penalties for centralizing as you are disrupting the status quo and established power interests but none for being centralized. Similarly there should be no tech penalties for being centralized. The concept of tradition and innovation already I think already covers this. Chinese were centralized and stagnated, not because they were centralized but because of other aspects of their society. The French made arguably the first central nation state and innovation flourished. As a side note, it would seem centralization should affect Administrative Efficiency.
    Innovation flourished in all enriched European nations, with the obvious and readily explained exception of Spain. It's worth noting that, taking the whole time period, most scientific and technological innovation took place in the relatively decentralized England (particularly towards the end) and that most cultural creation took place in Italy (moving to the HRE and Austria towards the end). This is not to say that France accomplished nothing in either of these areas, but the main contributions of France to the Enlightenment were political and philosophical in nature.

    Centralization will improve AE in MMP2, iirc. As for the revolt risk -- religious, political and cultural minorities generally respond poorly to centralization. Disenfranchisement and yearnings for autonomy don't go away over time.

    While it would be virtually impossible to completely destroy a religion in a province, you could certainly drive it sufficiently underground that it does not cause much trouble on a day to day basis.
    This is something that is also being addressed in MMP2. See the "MMP2 Preview" on the Religious Minority system to see how conversion is being improved. Even so, co

  8. #508
    Colonel Swedish Steel!'s Avatar
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    Finnish nationalists were enough, but then my king died in the defense of the offensive siege of Åkershus, which caused a major succession civil war. Then there spawned around 10 000 heretics in Finland, coupled with another 11 000 rebels in Stockholm. At least I managed to make Denmark-Norway release Oldenburg and withdraw their claims on Holstein, kind of disappointed though since the retarded AI spent all its ducats on mercenaries, meaning I couldn't demand any... I'm getting really, really tired of that.
    EDIT: New civil war event which basically let me choose between castrating myself and resigning. I chose the former. I find it very ironic that the Swedish crown cannot raise any more troops, but there are 10 000 heretics alone in battle fit condition. Where did they come from?

    I'm now minting at full capacity and I'm still on a 3.17 deficit per month.

    I'm feeling rather screwed.
    Last edited by Swedish Steel!; 04-08-2009 at 04:39.

  9. #509
    Lt. General axzhang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swedish Steel! View Post
    Finnish nationalists were enough, but then my king died in the defense of the offensive siege of Åkershus, which caused a major succession civil war. Then there spawned around 10 000 heretics in Finland, coupled with another 11 000 rebels in Stockholm. At least I managed to make Denmark-Norway release Oldenburg and withdraw their claims on Holstein, kind of disappointed though since the retarded AI spent all its ducats on mercenaries, meaning I couldn't demand any... I'm getting really, really tired of that.
    EDIT: New civil war event which basically let me choose between castrating myself and resigning. I chose the former. I find it very ironic that the Swedish crown cannot raise any more troops, but there are 10 000 heretics alone in battle fit condition. Where did they come from?

    I'm now minting at full capacity and I'm still on a 3.17 deficit per month.

    I'm feeling rather screwed.
    How do you end up collapsing/screwing yourself 5 years into the game? I mean, that's like twice the amount of time needed to win the first Danish war :/.
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  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by axzhang View Post
    How do you end up collapsing/screwing yourself 5 years into the game? I mean, that's like twice the amount of time needed to win the first Danish war :/.
    I began the game with the aim of calmly going through the war, wanting some money from it. At first, the war went well - only Västergötland was occupied, my troops and manpower pool had were fresh whilst Denmark-Norway was getting harried by attrition. I constructed some galleys so that I could blockade Öresund, since I've discovered that the AI is too dumb to join its fleets. 7 000 Swedish patriots spawned in Västergötland, retaking the province for me.

    Then came events like this one: centralization and -1 stability or decentralization and +1 stability. I wanted the centralization, and I figured that the war would be over soon too so I picked the first. Bam, down to 0 stab (got ideal circumstances when I moved a slider at the start). Soon some Finnish nationalists in Savolax popped, but I had no troops to spare.

    My king then ended up being killed while defending the siege of Åkershus. -1 stab, regency council, civil war. Loads of events that not only drained my treasury and gave other nasty penalties, they also further reduced my stability to -3. This made heretics pop up, and it was at around this point that I concluded a favorable peace with Denmark-Norway. The situation wasn't helped by the fact that I had ran war taxes for the entire war. Despite me having annihilated their armies multiple times and having blockaded his escape route to Denmark while he'd have to go through hostile territory to get to Norway, the Danish king of course doesn't get a scratch on himself nor does Denmark-Norway suffer a single rebellion. So typical.

    More and more bad events, culminating in entire Finland being in rebel hands with them having control of Västerbötten and Hälsingland as well. They were even besieging Stockholm in massive numbers.

    And that's how I managed to screw myself 5 years into the game. It's not the war, it's the ridiculous rebels that came with it, which also reduced my stab to -3 and sucked me clean of ducats, as well as the capacity to get new ducats. How the Swedish nobility has the sheer stupidity to start a civil war in the middle of a war for the nation's survival and 10 000 Apocalyptic heretic-soldiers appear out of nowhere, I don't know. Since the AI spends all of its ducats on pointless mercenaries that have no hope of doing anything, I couldn't demand any ducats from it in the peace deals. If I could choose, I would sack their capitals for not having any ducats to pay me with since I had occupied both of them, but as that can't be done ingame I was simply left to bankruptcy...
    Last edited by Swedish Steel!; 04-08-2009 at 06:19.

  11. #511
    Lt. General axzhang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swedish Steel! View Post
    The situation wasn't helped by the fact that I had ran war taxes for the entire war.
    I think that's pretty much how you screwed yourself. War taxes is not worth it at all in MMP except for very very short wars. The WE gain is much higher compared to Vanilla, you gain something like 1.2 WE a year. Combined with the fact that you start out with 3.00 WE entering the game, your WE probably rose to astronomical levels. High WE + negative stab = formula for civil war. If you just had the negative stab it probably wouldn't be as much of a problem.

    Also, I noticed the Norweigian/Danish armies like to do the advance/retreat dance into provinces to avoid attrition. Come and siege for a few months, then retreat and reinforce. So I usually end up just not waiting for attrition and attacking them outright. You have much higher discipline, morale, and a slightly better shock king than either of those nations so you should overrun their main armies without much difficulty and end the war quickly.
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  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by axzhang View Post
    I think that's pretty much how you screwed yourself. War taxes is not worth it at all in MMP except for very very short wars. The WE gain is much higher compared to Vanilla, you gain something like 1.2 WE a year. Combined with the fact that you start out with 3.00 WE entering the game, your WE probably rose to astronomical levels. High WE + negative stab = formula for civil war. If you just had the negative stab it probably wouldn't be as much of a problem.

    Also, I noticed the Norweigian/Danish armies like to do the advance/retreat dance into provinces to avoid attrition. Come and siege for a few months, then retreat and reinforce. So I usually end up just not waiting for attrition and attacking them outright. You have much higher discipline, morale, and a slightly better shock king than either of those nations so you should overrun their main armies without much difficulty and end the war quickly.
    Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I think I more or less forgot about war taxes, until I opened up the war screen and I noticed my war exhaustion. But then it was already too late.

    I wait for attrition to do its work on that front. It's pointless to attack them before you need to imo, let their manpower pools deplete themselves while they achieve nothing with their dancing. In this case you don't gain anything by attacking sooner rather than later, on the contrary you will have let Denmark-Norway's war exhaustion skyrocket thanks to their war exhaustion (slaps self in face for having had them on for so long previously, while typing this). Then you sweep their armies away and obliterate them. Next, occupy some regions so that you can demand that they release Oldenburg, withdraw claims to Holstein and if you're lucky, the AI won't have ''scorched'' its ducats on mercenaries. It didn't go so well that game, and now I think I'll just wait for MM2.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swedish Steel! View Post
    More and more bad events, culminating in entire Finland being in rebel hands with them having control of Västerbötten and Hälsingland as well. They were even besieging Stockholm in massive numbers.

    (...)it's the ridiculous rebels that came with it, which also reduced my stab to -3 and sucked me clean of ducats, as well as the capacity to get new ducats. How the Swedish nobility has the sheer stupidity to start a civil war in the middle of a war for the nation's survival and 10 000 Apocalyptic heretic-soldiers appear out of nowhere, I don't know.
    sounds like a typical day in post mid-17th century Pol-Lith i guess such things happened, nobility did't care about the country they had their own interests and ambitions (for a kingship even, or to elect a king more to their liking, even a foreign one!); and heretics well, they see you weak so they strike
    i'd say you had a very interersting game, i admit i don't know whether i'd persevere with it (too much depends on a good start in MMP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Swedish Steel! View Post
    Since the AI spends all of its ducats on pointless mercenaries that have no hope of doing anything, I couldn't demand any ducats from it in the peace deals. If I could choose, I would sack their capitals for not having any ducats to pay me with since I had occupied both of them, but as that can't be done ingame I was simply left to bankruptcy...
    i understand your pain, i'd love to see this in the game, even if not for ducats for sheer vengence i'd demolish their citywalls and raze marketplaces or whatever there was in the prov (to hell with bb!), i raised this issue of looting before (i consider it an impotrant element of warfare in those times) but apparently nothing can be done (and i admit it could grow exploitive)

    still you won the war! so that couldn't have been that bad -!-

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabor View Post
    sounds like a typical day in post mid-17th century Pol-Lith i guess such things happened, nobility did't care about the country they had their own interests and ambitions (for a kingship even, or to elect a king more to their liking, even a foreign one!); and heretics well, they see you weak so they strike
    i'd say you had a very interersting game, i admit i don't know whether i'd persevere with it (too much depends on a good start in MMP)

    i understand your pain, i'd love to see this in the game, even if not for ducats for sheer vengence i'd demolish their citywalls and raze marketplaces or whatever there was in the prov (to hell with bb!), i raised this issue of looting before (i consider it an impotrant element of warfare in those times) but apparently nothing can be done (and i admit it could grow exploitive)

    still you won the war! so that couldn't have been that bad -!-
    You're right. And indeed, so would I - really hope a looting system is in place. Exploitation was the point of it, so I don't think that's a very valid counter-argument.

    Hehe... want to give the shituation a go huh, trust me, you don't

  15. #515
    I had this event with full free subjects

    but this is event better:


    thanks for some pocket change, I get more after 4 months of minting

  16. #516
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    This last event is not going to be in MMP2.

    ... But I have to confess that it is not a bad event per se, while the country receiving it is within the gameplay limits of Magna Mundi.

    Your treasury, admitably a not so reliable source, points you already broke the magna mundi balance. This is not a criticism, just an aknowledgement that as of MMP, we could not prevent unrealistic expansion of one type or another...
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  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by ubik View Post
    This last event is not going to be in MMP2.

    ... But I have to confess that it is not a bad event per se, while the country receiving it is within the gameplay limits of Magna Mundi.

    Your treasury, admitably a not so reliable source, points you already broke the magna mundi balance. This is not a criticism, just an aknowledgement that as of MMP, we could not prevent unrealistic expansion of one type or another...
    if my country was in gameplay limits of MMP I would be sitting last 100-150 years and watching time display, my inflation would be like 0.00% because I don't mint, I could as well leave game running and do something else

  18. #518
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    Like the Most Divine Lord Ubik said, it's not a criticism.

    MMP is a very powergame friendly mod at this point. If you know the system, you can accomplish virtually anything in game.

    MMP2 looks poised to change this -- hopefully even simple goals will be protracted (and fun!) struggles.

  19. #519
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    @spk99

    Very well thought out and written post. It echoes many of the same observations/concerns I have.
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    Violent Rampage Chance: 3% (-0.01)

  20. #520
    vanilla and MMP has the same problem - not enough things to do, cripled diplomacy, random PU, colonial system where if you are not one of the portugal/castille/england/france you won't have many things to do, sure you can have some colonies, but thanks to colonial range and 100 years to gain core in MMP you may as well forget about colonial empire; there is also hre, which is "member only" and is also quite boring, that leaves wars... and winning wars means getting new land, and getting more land means breaking MMP, which is somehow against historical outcome, I don't even have half of the XIX russia lands and Ubik declared that I broke MMP

    MMP "balance" was created for small nations which will stay small nations, maybe you should do SOMETHING for players who enjoy creating empires, and not playing whole game as OPM or minor

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