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Thread: Fine Feats with Finland - an EU2 SG

  1. #1

    Fine Feats with Finland - an EU2 SG

    Fine Feats with Finland


    Welcome to the EU2 Succesion Game where we will play as Finland in Interregnum. If you're unsure what this is all about, take a look in the Succession Game discussion thread.

    The roster is full at the moment, but if you want to play, you can join as a reserve. Even if you don't want to join, feel free to comment, come with suggestions etc.

    Game Settings:

    EU2 Version: 1.09
    Mod: Interregnum 1.05
    Country: Finland
    Random Events: On
    Fog of War: On
    Dynamic Missions: Off
    Forced Annexation: On
    All Interregnum specific settings on
    Difficulty: Very hard/normal
    Victory Conditions: Standard (victory points)


    Reporting:

    When it's your turn and you got the save, post "Got it", so the other players are aware that you will play your turn.

    When writing the report, be sure to keep it detailed (gameplay information is good!) and adding a few pictures is also good. The report can be written in whatever style you like.

    When you have uploaded the report, remember to upload the save too. You find the save in ...\EU2\Interregnum\Scenarios\Save Games. Since the savefile will get quite big, zip the file. Upload it to free hosting sites like www.savefile.com or rapidshare.com

    The report should contain a small debriefing: Post what our BB, inflation, stability and treasury is, in addtion to who we got CB on. Also post a overview map from the end of your turn (in political map view).

    Rules:

    - Our reputation is golden. Do NOT forceannex. Try to keep our BB below 10 when we're weaker than our neighbours. Other than that, try to play honorable.
    - Your turn is maxiumum 20 years of gameplay.
    - 24 hours to report "Got it" when you got the save. Post the report within before Monday if you're a weekend-player, or before Friday/Saturday if you're a weekday-player
    - Try to keep minting on a minimum - don't mint if we are over 15% inflation.
    - We're allowed to forge CBs from loans in this SG.

    See this post for more general rules/guidelines.

    Goals:

    - Convert Scandinavia, and release Norway and/or Union of Kalmar as Orthodox vassal. It's really enough to convert Stockholm and Oslo. But we have to capture the provinces first, and that should secure us some wars.
    - Convert some other European nations, release them as vassals and help them convert as much as possible.
    - Convert the Pope.
    - Become Defender of Faith ASAP
    - Be fully innovat...cough, narrowinded. See the discussion thread for how our DP slider will be.
    - Remove Teutonic Order from the map.
    - Leave the Russian states alone (that is, not annexing them).
    - Only own Finnic, Scandinavian, Norwegian and Baltic provinces.
    The goals may be changed over time.

    I suggest that we read through Finland's events before our turn, so we know what option that is the best.

    Roster, suggestion:

    1. Emperor_krk
    2. Mega Death
    3. Olav
    4. Brian Roastbeef
    5. PrawnStar
    6. Panther

    The roster must obviously be changed somewhat depending on several things. We look closer at it while we move along.

    The roster is full, but other readers are encouraged to sign up! One day we might might need a reserve. And comments are appreciated even if you are a player or not.

  2. #2
    Status 1419



    We start with a bunch of provinces, that's good. Most of them also got tax collectors, so we get around 50 ducats in census taxes. However, some of the provinces doesn't have forts. That doesn't matter much, as we have 105000 men guarding them. One of the provinces is Catholic. Heathens! It's cheap to convert it, with a reasonable change for success as well (50%).

    We don't have any allies. Suzdals alliance is the most natural choice at the start. Our natural enemies, UoK and TO, don't have any allies either. This should be exploited (war -> loot -> happy days). We might want to let UoK keep Finland, and TO Ingermanland, so we have permanent CBs against them.

    I don't think there's much else to say. Emperor_krk: you may start the show!

    Roster:
    1. Emperor_krk
    2. Mega Death? Olav? Anyone else?

  3. #3
    Mǎlum incarnatum Emperor_krk's Avatar
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    I'll work on the update today in the evening and post it asap .
    Could/might/should have, for hell's sake.
    also, http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/


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  4. #4
    Mǎlum incarnatum Emperor_krk's Avatar
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    I decide to disband most of the army, leaving about 34'000 men. The composition of them is 5'000 cavalry, with the rest being infantry. And reindeers, most probably. We have two unfortified provinces (Karelia and Arkhangelsk)which we are not going to fortify yet - both are insignificant and away from our potentially agressive neighbours.

    We decide to try and use our force against one of our neighbours we have casus belli against - the Teutonic Order or Union of Kalmar. Seeing that the UoK is handling pretty well the war against Norway and Scotland (which started, if I remember correctly, almost the very day the game began), we consider the Teutons to be a better target. Especially because they are at the same time at war with Halych-Volhynia (HV henceforth, if ever mentioned), Smolensk and Tver.

    We promptly move our forces toward Riga - their capital in Kurland province. We leave a small covering corps at Ingermanland - we don't want the Teutons to spam our country with troops produced there. Another unit is left in Livland province. At first, everything seems to look well for us - the Teutons have lots of HVians and Tverians within their borders, besieging Lithuania (HV), Welikia and Pskov (Tver). The Teutonic armies seem to be non-existent, and the war appears to be almost over for them even before it has really begun. Riga fell to our brave armies in the beginning of 1422, but we then notice a strange thing - the large HVian stacks have vanished, replaced by even larger forces of the Germans, who are able to quite quickly retake Lithuania. We decide to destroy a 10'000-strong detachment stationed at Polotsk with our forces from Riga and Livland, but despite the odds being much in our favour (attack from two directions at once, almost twice as big an army on our side) we lose. When we notice not only that the Teutons have gathered another 38'000 knights in Memel, but also that the Russians and Ruthenians had withdrawn from the war for a mere contribution in ducats, we find the situation we are in too difficult to handle - Ahti III, our king, sends envoys to the Grandmaster of the Teutons, asking for 75'000 (75d in game terms; I just hate seeing such small sums in AARS :P) ducats in return for a peace treaty - to which the Germans agreed.


    The battle at Polotsk


    Forgot to mention - since 1419 we have been in an alliance with Suzdal and Ryazan - they offered it to us a few months after we had declared war against the TO.



    The next few years are spent mostly on thumb-twiddling and gathering cash for the conversion of Oesterbotten, the sole catholic province that we possess. The chances are pretty good - 58%, we just hope that the monarch doesn't change for a worse one (Ahti III is quite lame in all aspects but administration). In 1426 we achieve level 2 in Infrastructure and start to invest in Trade.



    Unfortunately, in 1427 the king passes away, to be replaced by another Ahti, this time the Fourth, slightly less lame in terms of diplomacy and military, but slightly more in administration. Decreasing the chance to convert Oesterbotten to 50% - still not very bad. Another 4 years pass without much to mention, when we are presented with this piece of news:



    Aye. I hate you, Ahti IV.

    Two more years pass, when we notice that our southern neighbour, the Teutonic Order, is again in a war. And what a war it is! They seem to have pissed quite a lot of people. We see it as a perfect opportunity to conduct another war with them. Luckily for us, a month before we want to declare war (the plans are for March, when the snow between Gulf of Finland and lake Lagoda usually melts), our alliance with Suzdal, Ryazan and Tver expires. Great, because we can now recreate it, but this tiem as leaders! We reinforce the Finnish Army and attack the TO, asking our allies to assist us. They honour the call, and Tver promptly sends some 30'000 men against Pskov. We move toward Belarus, hoping to prevent the ongoing conversion of that province to catholicism (it currently is, like Lithuania, pagan - we are considering taking these provinces in the future in order to convert them easily to orthodoxy, at the same time changing their culture to finnish (correct me if I am wrong here - haven't played EU2 for some time now).



    Belarus and Polotsk fall to our brave men by September 1434, while Tver besieges Welikia, having already conquered Pskov. However, the Germans are on the counteroffensive - there are reports of more than 40'000 men marching from the south, with some 17'000 already besieging the, occupied by us, province of Belarus. By mid-1435 it is reconquered by the Teutons, who move on towards Polotsk and Pskov. We defeat them in a glorious battle outside the latter city's walls, but decide to try to end the war now that it is still favourable for us. We ask for Welikia and Pskov for Tver and some money for the alliance, but the Grandmaster refuses. Our main army tries to pursue the Teutonic one, disorganised after the battle at Pskov, and defeats them again at Ingermanland, but during the pursuit toward our capital in Helsinki, the Finnish army is destroyed.



    Too much pressing of luck, it appears. December of 1435 starts looking very dire for the alliance - we have no money to recruit troops for, our allies' armies are smaller than our enemies', who besieges not only the provinces we took from them, but also our very capital. Despite all that, the Teutonic Order proposes a peace treaty, which - after some consideration - we decide to agree to.



    I know that we didn't want to let go of that CB, but a) we can forge CBs via loans in this game b) I didn't want this war to end worse than the first one.

    Not much worth mention happens until 1439 - our allies get involved in a war against the Golden Horde (allied with the Caliphate - though I don't think they are going to be sending their units as far north as Russia), a war in which I don't bother to act at all - unless our orthodox brothers are in real danger, which I doubt (the GH has serious internal problems, it's government collapses every few years and the revolt risk in their provinces is usually around 8-10%). By 1439, we have our army rebuilt to a safe size of 12'000 men.



    Army: 12'000.
    CBs: Union of Kalmar
    Alliance: leading one with Suzdal, Tver and Ryazan; good relations with all of them
    Access through Suzdal; we'd need one through Tver as well, for a possible future war against the TO
    Treasury - 69 ducats; income - around 14 ducats/month; census tax - around 40-50d
    One catholic province that really needs to be converted once we've got a spare 150d
    Peace treaty with the TO to expire in 1442 - dunno if they will feel strong enough to attack, but I wouldn't say that it's impossible.
    War against Golden Horde and the Caliphate.
    Last edited by Emperor_krk; 19-10-2008 at 15:23.
    Could/might/should have, for hell's sake.
    also, http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/


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  5. #5
    Nice turn! I had expected you to go against UoK, as they're a bit weaker than TO. But it's nice to see TO weakened with the loss of three provinces. They still have a good base though, so we need to weaken them some more to feel completely secure.

    Good to see Norway didn't loss any provinces to UoK. Same for Poland, from experience they are a punching bag for the Germans and TO.

    How's our navy? I think we should at least have 30 galleys. We need to be able to transport armies to the Hanseatic provinces in Germany - a war for Novgorod will surely come, and we need to secure warscore to get it. It's releaving to know that we're alliance leader. We don't want any of our allies to secure Novgorod for themselves.

    Next up is Mega Death. If not, anyone with time can take it.

  6. #6
    Mǎlum incarnatum Emperor_krk's Avatar
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    I think we shouldn't try to get Novgorod earlier than when we have a leader at our disposal - to make sure our allies don't get it before us. The UoK only seems to be weak - they have a far wider approach to our provinces, making it harder to defend against them effectively.
    Our navy is in a terrible state - I haven't touched it since 1419, so it consists of only 5 galleys and one transport. Thus, currently it's of no use compared to the navies of any of our neighbours. A war against Hansa will be difficult - we've got to remember that they have a navy of about 100 ships which could destroy even a 30-galley fleet we would eventually build. At this time I would consider converting Oesterbotten as soon as possible, perhaps trying to save cash for an FAA in Helsinki, and preparing for a war against the TO (I hope they attack us or our allies at some point in the nearish future).
    Could/might/should have, for hell's sake.
    also, http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/


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  7. #7
    Alien Space Bat PrawnStar's Avatar
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    Good work Emperor_krk!

    Quick question are we diplovasselising/diploannexing? If we are Smolensk is a huge target - all three provinces are Baltic culture.


    Apparently I need to buy some more gravel.


    My AARs: EU3 England, Golden Horde, France, Iroquois, Castile / EU2 Finland / My Inkwell

    "Sunset Invasion isn't ASB - it's just Prawnstar playing CK2" Athalcor
    "If EU3 had exiled prawn-like aliens he'd be the first one to do a WC with them..." aldriq
    "You were prawn under a conquering stAAR!" Arakhor



  8. #8
    We get a leader in 1441, so that should be a good time to strike to get Novgorod. I also think we should strike against UoK sooner rather than later - we don't want them to become too strong. Even if they will probably swarm us with large armies, we can use winter to our advantage. I usually hope for snow in March, and if they happen to besiege a fort, I time an attack at the last day of the month. It's so nice to see the enemy army suddently losing thousands of men.

    Even if UoK has a gigantic navy, we really need one anyway. It shouldn't be too hard to avoid it in a case of war against them. I also suspect that most of their ships are warships, making it easier for us to survive battles with galleys. I think a nice strategy against UoK will be to siege their Danish provinces while UoK suffer from attrition in Finland. If we get Skåne or Sjælland, we get a nice base for our navy. It'll be very easy to reach Hanse's provinces that way. We can also release Skåne as vassal (I think it's them in revolt.txt) if it's difficult to hold on to. But we should try to convert it first though.

    And I agree that we should convert Österbotten when we got the money. But we should always have a wrong-religion province in "backup", so we can make use of the "Conversion of Heretics" events. And I wholeheartedly agree that we should build a FFA in Helsinki. I guess stab costs are quite high.

    What DP sliders did you move, Emperor?

    Yeah, diplovassalizing/diploannexing is of course okay. However I think we should modify the "own Baltic culture provinces" rule a bit - I was more thinking of owning provinces bordering the Baltic Sea. But we can also own landlocked/inland Baltic provinces, depending on how the game progresses.

    The next turn is still up for grabs. If no one takes it, I will take it within a day.

    Edit: Some of your pics needs to be fixed, krk. What's krk, by the way? Krakow?
    Last edited by Olav; 19-10-2008 at 12:06.

  9. #9
    Alien Space Bat PrawnStar's Avatar
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    I just knew you'd say something like that about Smolensk - better not tell you where all the other target provinces are LOL

    "Conversion of Heretics" events are great and utterly wasted on a right culture province - if I understand the event files correctly if we convert Finland at some point it will culture flip so taking it off the UoK doesn't need to be a bad idea.


    Apparently I need to buy some more gravel.


    My AARs: EU3 England, Golden Horde, France, Iroquois, Castile / EU2 Finland / My Inkwell

    "Sunset Invasion isn't ASB - it's just Prawnstar playing CK2" Athalcor
    "If EU3 had exiled prawn-like aliens he'd be the first one to do a WC with them..." aldriq
    "You were prawn under a conquering stAAR!" Arakhor



  10. #10
    Have I become that predictable already?

    Yeah, Finland would be a good target for a random conversion event, considering that it got Scandinavian culture. And it will indeed culture flip by event if it's Orthodox, but that's not until 1560.

  11. #11
    Mǎlum incarnatum Emperor_krk's Avatar
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    The images are fixed now, thanks for the notice.

    Well, I didn't know if DP slider changes were allowed (first time to play with preset DP settings), so I didn't change anything. Though what I would have changed is the quality/quantity slider, two moves to the right (despite us being fully land/offensive, we had significant problems winning battles pretty often - this might have had to do with the fact, however, that the TO had LT 2 from the very beginning of the game). Therefore, if that's not agaisnt the rules, the next player could alter that in the savefile.

    And thank you, PrawnStar .

    Yes Olav, this krk at the end of my name is an abbreviation from Kraków, my home city. I don't really like anymore the nick I chose for myself on these boards (and which I use on the Pdox backup and EUFI as well :P), but I can't change it, so...
    Could/might/should have, for hell's sake.
    also, http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/


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  12. #12
    Oh, it seems to be a little misunderstanding here. We're supposed to move the sliders from the starting positions (the left one in post #2) to the desired positions (right one, labeled desired). So we will move the sliders the standard way - one time every tenth year. So I will adjust the slider positions in the save-file back to the starting positions, but move one or more slider 3 times (since we've played 30 years). I'm thinking of only moving the Offensive Doctrine slider - any objections?

    Just to make it clear: when we're for example fully Quanity, we aren't allowed to move Quality. We should be at the desired slider positions when we've reached them.

    I'll think I will play now - the report will be up later today or tomorrow.

  13. #13
    Mǎlum incarnatum Emperor_krk's Avatar
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    2 times. I've played 20 years .
    So yeah, do readjust the sliders to what they should look like.
    Eagerly awaiting the update .
    Could/might/should have, for hell's sake.
    also, http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/


    Come, see my InkWell library, containing all AARs I've written or participated in.

  14. #14

    Finland 1439-1465

    My turn brought good news and bad news. The bad news were actually quite bad, and outweighted the good ones. More on that later. To begin with, I adjusted the Offensive Doctrine slider. One more move before we get +1 shock. I also started recruiting some cavalry to do some looting in Golden Horde's territory. However I never got that far because the area was swarming with armies. Ryazan was besieged by 80000 men! The Caliphate brought the most men, actually, with leaders in addition. So it wasn't surprising to see Ryazan annexed by the Caliphate by the end of 1439. Then Tver was the next target - they lost Moscow to the Caliphate. Damn! Fortunately Suzdal managed to hold on to their provinces, but their armies were trashed. They sold themselves out of the war for 150 ducats in 1441. Finland was now alone against the Muslim mega-alliance (Caliphate, GH, Hedjaz, Mamluks and Yemen IIRC), but fortunately they didn't have land-access to Finnish territories. The Mamluks managed to land a lootingparty in Finmark actually, but they dwindled away during winter. Serves you well, desert-rats!


    Start of the offensive


    Since they couldn't reach me, I started a small offensive in Moscow and Ryazan with our new leader, Antero. There were some small enemy armies around, and they were soundly smashed. I wanted to capture both Ryazan and Moscow, but when the former was captured, the Caliphate offered us 222 ducats (or 222 000 ducats in krk's terms ). I thought about it a while - wouldn't it be better to get Ryazan in a deal, and then release Ryazan as vassal? I thought that if it stayed in Caliphate's hands, it would eventually revolt away, so I took the money instead. In hindsight I should've taken Ryazan. More on that later. The money from the peacedeal was used on a conversion of Österbotten (50% chance), and building galleys.

    With BB at 0 and UoK in a war against Norway (which they seemingly was losing), I sent a DoW against UoK early in 1444. I took a gamble that UoK's navy wasn't nearby, and landed a cavalry army in Skåne. Antero and the rest of the army besieged the province of Finland. I used the navy to blockade the port - we actually won a few engagements at sea (against 1 or 2 ships), but when UoK's big fleet arrived, our navy were never used again in the war. Meanwhile a new infantry army was sent to capture Estland.


    War against Union of Kalmar. Defeating recruits in Finland. Norway controls two UoK-provinces


    No armies from UoK were within sight until peace was concluded with Norway (no provinces changed hands). After that they sent quite a few men into Österbotten. I was a bit worried if they would capture the province, aborting the ongoing conversion. Fortunately, it didn't happen - when Finland was captured after a year, Antero and his men managed to beat the larger army in Österbotten. 6 days later Skåne was captured. Meanwhile we got LT 2.

    UoK tried several times to get back to Österbotten, but were each time defeated by Antero. The +1 shock from Offensive Doctrine played a part as well, I guess. When Estland was captured, and Jylland also nearly captured, UoK offered Estland, Finland and Skåne. I accepted. Estland is Catholic, but it got Finnic culture, so it should be easy to convert. Skåne is of course a different matter - but we should nevertheless try to convert it. It's possible to release them as vassals - it would be nice to have a Orthodox, Scandinavian cultured vassal. In the mean time we should make good use of the national waters around Skåne.

    Now for the bad news. The Hanseatic League sent a DoW to the Caliphate during the Finnic-UoK war. Since I didn't capture Ryazan, the Muslims had free access to Novgorod. And, of course, the Caliphate got Novgorod in a peace deal. The worst part is that the CoT disappeared, and a new one was not created. Bleh! To rub it in Novgorod was converted, clearly by event. We could try to take Novgorod though, and see if a CoT appears in Nyland. But I doubt it. It's possible to release Novgorod as vassal, but then they will be Sunni. And I don't think we will be able to convert them easily. Better to let Tver or some others capture it. Oh, Tver managed to convert Pskov by the way.

    More bad news: two "historical" events "gave" us -4 stability. Random events followed up with more stability drops (Cities demand Rights, Treacherous Noble). It was therefore releaving to see the conversion of Österbotten successful, with all the bad news around.

    In 1453 we got a 2 year CB against UoK. I decided to end my turn in the beginning of 1455, so the next player can decide if we're going to war again. BB is currently at 3.6. We should try to convert Estland (cheap, 56% success). Note that all our income is invested in stability at the moment - infra 3 is perhaps the best tech to research. Once we get + stability, we should expand our trade in Mecklenburg - it's very rich now with Novgorod's CoT gone.


    Current situation


    BB: 3.6
    Inflation: 0 (got a deflation event)
    Allies: Tver and Suzdal. We also got MA thorugh Tver
    CB: UoK
    Army/fleet: Support limit for army (some 27 000 men), 20 galleys.

    The save: http://www.savefile.com/files/1848778

    Next up: Brian or PrawnStar?
    Last edited by Olav; 20-10-2008 at 12:55. Reason: spelling

  15. #15
    Mǎlum incarnatum Emperor_krk's Avatar
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    The Muslim war was harder than I had anticipated. Pity indeed to see Novgorod not only in the hands of the Caliphate and converted to their religion, but also without a CoT. Our 5 merchants there were netting a ducat a month, which was quite significant when our monthly budget was 14-ish ducats. In other words: bugger.

    Good to see you fared well in the war against the Union. If I were to counsel, I would attack them again using the CB Olav received - such an occasion may not occur too early.
    Good to hear that the conversion succeeded. Now, do the same with Estland.
    Could/might/should have, for hell's sake.
    also, http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/


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  16. #16
    Alien Space Bat PrawnStar's Avatar
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    Brian, I seem to remember you can post during the week but not play? If you can't make it I can take a go.

    I've been practising, that Al-Andalus event when all of Chrisendom comes calling is FUN!


    Apparently I need to buy some more gravel.


    My AARs: EU3 England, Golden Horde, France, Iroquois, Castile / EU2 Finland / My Inkwell

    "Sunset Invasion isn't ASB - it's just Prawnstar playing CK2" Athalcor
    "If EU3 had exiled prawn-like aliens he'd be the first one to do a WC with them..." aldriq
    "You were prawn under a conquering stAAR!" Arakhor



  17. #17
    If you want to go now Prawnstar, go ahead. If you haven't taken the save by tomorrow afternoon (East coast USA - Late evening GMT), I'll go instead.

    Finding the time to play isn't a big deal. That doesn't take too long for me. Its finding the time to sort through the pictures and write up the post that takes my time.

    Good turns guys, I'll comment more later.

  18. #18
    Alien Space Bat PrawnStar's Avatar
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    Cool, got it, I'll play tonight and type up tomorrow.

    Now all I have to do is to remember to Print Screen instead of hitting F11 for screenies


    Apparently I need to buy some more gravel.


    My AARs: EU3 England, Golden Horde, France, Iroquois, Castile / EU2 Finland / My Inkwell

    "Sunset Invasion isn't ASB - it's just Prawnstar playing CK2" Athalcor
    "If EU3 had exiled prawn-like aliens he'd be the first one to do a WC with them..." aldriq
    "You were prawn under a conquering stAAR!" Arakhor



  19. #19
    Okay, Prawnstar. If you finish up by tomorrow, I should still be able to have my go Wed-Fri, if that's okay with everybody. Otherwise, if you'd rather take your time, maybe somebody else (Mega Death? Panther?) could go this weekend, and I'd lead off early next week?

    I'd like a clarification of one of the rules, though. If we get a multiple choice random event that affects sliders, are we committed to taking the option that directs our DP sliders the least against our ultimate goal, or is it at our discretion as normal? For instance, the "Cities Demand Old Rights" event (I really hate that bastard...), are we required to take the -2 stability, rather than the -1 Centralization, as we are trying to lock in at full centralization?

  20. #20
    I'm perfectly okay with you two going before the weekend. If you have time and want to play, I see no reason not to go this week. As for Panther, I think we should count him out until he makes some sounds.

    If we get a multiple choice random event (or a historical event), choose the option that you would normally do. No need to break our nation with bad events only to have a slider move in the "right" position.

    Good luck with your turn, PrawnStar! I don't know if you're being ironic, but F11 is much more practical than Print Screen.

    By the way, if you decide to DoW UoK - I don't know if we want more provinces from them at the moment. I think getting more will do more harm than good on our economy. I think it's better to perhaps go for 20% WS so we get MA. Getting a large amount of indemnities would also be good, to fund our conversions. The Hanseatic League may also be a good target - I suspect them to be quite rich...

    Emperor_krk: I forgot to answer you, but I do think that only pagan provinces outside Europe will get a culture-change if converted. I could be wrong though; I can ask at the Interregnum-forum.

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