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Thread: WIELKOPOLSKA - Rise of the White Eagle - A Polish AAR

  1. #701
    Yes, the principle of soldiers that fight on foot but travel on horseback had existed for centuries. See dragoons.

  2. #702
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    My history teacher said that the Polish army surrendered to aircraft (this was after she said Delaware seceded from the Union). Her ignorance is what inspired me to become a history teacher so that the kids don't think this bullshit is really true.

  3. #703
    Saver of the World robw963's Avatar
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    @ Phax: My current Consumer Goods allocation is a temporary measure until I defeat Germany. I'm trying to preserve my current money supply to use for both intelligence and diplomacy efforts in the near future. Normally I'd be trading away resources or supplies in exchange for money, but the war with Germany has made my trade efficiency horrible...making trades with my "allies" very unprofitable. I can survive for awhile longer with these current settings. It won't need to last much longer.

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    @ Haru yo koi: nice graphics in that background. Always good to see the "old man" dressed up in full marshal regalia. I also love that leader pic of Kutrzeba...very nice! Odd leader choice to lead armored units however.

    @ Colonel Bran: You'll never hear a word from me that would slander the amazing cavalry tradition of Poland. It amazes me that ridiculous German propaganda from nearly 70 years ago STILL, to this day survives. I mean seriously? Your history teacher perpetuated this MYTH? Shame on him/her. Actually, it's my understanding that the myth (while originated by the German propaganda machine) was reported by an Italian war correspondent. I think the romantic silliness of it all ran away with the guy and somehow it's become the "truth" we still hear about today. I believe there was even a Polish film (made in the 60's or 70's?) that depicted the lances versus armor myth. Weird how these little lies take on a life of their own. I suppose in the example of the Polish film, it somehow symbolized the brave futility of the struggle...more metaphorical than literal.

    Polish cavalry in 1939 were the elite of the Polish Army. You'll find images of Polish cavalry from this era carrying lances, however these were more ceremonial than anything. As mentioned above, Polish cavalry typically dismounted and fought like infantry on foot. Make no mistake though. These guys knew how to kill a man from horseback...and did on some occasions do just that...with a gun or a sabre.

    I regret there isn't a leader trait in this game for a cavalry leader. Cavalry just aren't cool enough I guess.

    @ Cegorach: haha! really? I've never heard about the American's charging Japanese tanks. Makes me curious to look into that and learn more about it.

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  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by robw963

    @ Cegorach: haha! really? I've never heard about the American's charging Japanese tanks. Makes me curious to look into that and learn more about it.

    Considering that reportedly some Japanese "Tanks" had armour that was so thin it could be pentrated by a bolt-action rifle it isn't all that outlandish.
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  5. #705
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    It seems like Poland should get its own kind of dragoon divisions. Same stats and requisite techs as Infantry, but more mobile.
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  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by robw963

    @ Cegorach: haha! really? I've never heard about the American's charging Japanese tanks. Makes me curious to look into that and learn more about it.
    Several of sources literally say that

    The last American mounted tactical cavalry unit in combat was the 26th Cavalry (Philippine Scouts) in Philippines, stationed at Ft Stotsenburg, Luzon, 1942, which fought both mounted and dismounted against Japanese invasion troops in 1942. On the Bataan Peninsula, the 26th Cavalry (PS) staged a mounted attack against the Japanese on 16 January 1942. The battered, exhausted men of the 26th Cavalry climbed astride their horses and flung themselves moments against the blazing gun muzzles of Japanese tanks. This last mounted pistol charge was led by Ed Ramsey in command of G troop, 26th Cavalry. It was the last mounted charge in America's annals, and proved the climax of the 26th Cavalry's magnificent but doomed horseback campaign against the Imperial Japanese Army during the fall of the Philippines in 1941-42. According to a Bataan survivor interviewed in the Washington Post (10 April 1977), starving US and Philippine troops ate all the regiment's horses.
    image -

    http://www.edwinpriceramsey.com/the_battle.asp

    Most likely those were the horrible, horrible Mark 89A or Bs - the worst tanks of the WWII in my opinion, but still I find that really, really funny...


    I believe there was even a Polish film (made in the 60's or 70's?) that depicted the lances versus armor myth. Weird how these little lies take on a life of their own. I suppose in the example of the Polish film, it somehow symbolized the brave futility of the struggle...more metaphorical than literal.
    More like sabres vs. tanks. It was in "Lotna" by Andrzej Wajda and was clearly a symbolic gesture.
    Wajda's father was a cavalry officer (killed in Katyn) so it doesn't come from ignorance. Of course it was somehow enjoyed by the Party which tried to support the myth in Polish society (after all Soviet propaganda did, so they had as well) for first decades of communism at least.



    Polish cavalry in 1939 were the elite of the Polish Army. You'll find images of Polish cavalry from this era carrying lances, however these were more ceremonial than anything. As mentioned above, Polish cavalry typically dismounted and fought like infantry on foot. Make no mistake though. These guys knew how to kill a man from horseback...and did on some occasions do just that...with a gun or a sabre.
    About 2/3 od cavalry charges in 1939 succeeded and of course they were used in only some critical situations.
    The main factror was the fact that in the times where a rifle can kill from a long distance hand to hand combat becomes less frequent and most soldiers do not expect it too often and don't experience it in usual circumstances.
    For this reason exactly like a surprise night raid or heavy urban fighting it requires nerves of steel to fight well against cavalry, though it is much more futile to combat a man on a horseback with a certain promise of really nasty death in his hand.
    That is why the psychological factor was the main thing here and no wonder that just a squadron or a regiment was enough to shake morale of entire combat groups - division or corps sized.


    I regret there isn't a leader trait in this game for a cavalry leader. Cavalry just aren't cool enough I guess.
    Trickster is quite good for that. Besides most of real life Polish cavalry commanders in the game are clearly superior through their better skills and certain traits (see Abraham, Anders etc for that matter).

    If Polish army could get something special it would be exceptional skill to launch night attacks - this was the most visable falw of Wehrmacht discovered in 1939 - HQs of several German divisions discovered it after all.


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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by robw963

    @ Cegorach: haha! really? I've never heard about the American's charging Japanese tanks. Makes me curious to look into that and learn more about it.



    Considering that reportedly some Japanese "Tanks" had armour that was so thin it could be pentrated by a bolt-action rifle it isn't all that outlandish.
    Indeed, those Japanese tanks really were terrible.

    But, isn't that a bit ironic that the most frequent believers in the entire 'Polish cavalry charging tanks' theory are American and it was their cavalry which actually did that in real life ?



    @germanpeon


    It seems like Poland should get its own kind of dragoon divisions. Same stats and requisite techs as Infantry, but more mobile.
    There is no reason for that. Polish cavalry was exactly like any other, more effficient and better trained maybe, but no different.
    It might got some starting experience - like 10 points (like it is done in CORE) to reflect its more successful use during the war, but apart from that nothing really.
    Last edited by cegorach; 07-10-2008 at 10:06.
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  7. #707
    Captain gooy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach
    There is no reason for that. Polish cavalry was exactly like any other, more effficient and better trained maybe, but no different.
    It might got some starting experience - like 10 points (like it is done in CORE) to reflect its more successful use during the war, but apart from that nothing really.
    hmmm but what is missing anyway are any new cavalry techs between 1939 and 1946. i think that if poland survived fall weiss cavalry would be upgraded just as the infantry was. i guess it should get a status like the specialist infantry forces (mountain, naval and airborne infantry) have.

  8. #708
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    I must say this discussion is better than a Polish history textbook...at least it's wrote in English
    Also, gooy, I suggest that all builded cavalry units from 41 to 46 get a raising exp bonus from 5% in the first year to 40% in the last one, or till the research of the armored cavalry. I mean that you firstly get +5 exp, then +10, then +15, then +25, then +40 exp.
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  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach
    About 2/3 od cavalry charges in 1939 succeeded and of course they were used in only some critical situations.
    The main factror was the fact that in the times where a rifle can kill from a long distance hand to hand combat becomes less frequent and most soldiers do not expect it too often and don't experience it in usual circumstances.
    For this reason exactly like a surprise night raid or heavy urban fighting it requires nerves of steel to fight well against cavalry, though it is much more futile to combat a man on a horseback with a certain promise of really nasty death in his hand.
    That is why the psychological factor was the main thing here and no wonder that just a squadron or a regiment was enough to shake morale of entire combat groups - division or corps sized.
    For example: http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=NChnVR...eature=related

  10. #710
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    As cool as I think cavalry is, especially Polish cavalry, I don't imagine that they would have continued to upgrade their cavalry units for much longer. In fact, they had already begun the process of converting cavalry units into mechanized units which is really the logical progression for cavalry units in this era.

    In the US, cavalry units eventually become armored recon units or air cavalry (helicopter-borne infantry) in Vietnam. The movies Apocalypse Now or We Were Soldiers both portray that pretty well.

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  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach
    About 2/3 od cavalry charges in 1939 succeeded and of course they were used in only some critical situations.
    The main factror was the fact that in the times where a rifle can kill from a long distance hand to hand combat becomes less frequent and most soldiers do not expect it too often and don't experience it in usual circumstances.
    For this reason exactly like a surprise night raid or heavy urban fighting it requires nerves of steel to fight well against cavalry, though it is much more futile to combat a man on a horseback with a certain promise of really nasty death in his hand.
    That is why the psychological factor was the main thing here and no wonder that just a squadron or a regiment was enough to shake morale of entire combat groups - division or corps sized.
    Which is, btw, the reason why Panzers are still around today.
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  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by gooy
    hmmm but what is missing anyway are any new cavalry techs between 1939 and 1946. i think that if poland survived fall weiss cavalry would be upgraded just as the infantry was. i guess it should get a status like the specialist infantry forces (mountain, naval and airborne infantry) have.
    Actually we know the plans for years 1940-42 - even if sometimes only barely in in no precise details.
    For later years we can use Soviet model of development as the example (so basically more automatic and heavy weapontry + more and better armoured vehicles), though Polish cavalry would be different in several ways. Besides there was the Independent Cavalry Brigade in the Soviet controlled 1st Polish Army which fought mounted and dismounted charging German soldiers as far as Berlin itself (supposedly, the last charge that certainly happened had its place in Pomerania in early 1945).

    One must realise that Poland faced one huge, major obstacle which made cavalry a sensible choice - bad infrastructure of the eastern borderlands which had major importance in case of war against the Soviets.
    Since against the SU Poland didn't expect the French or anyone else to act in any meaningful way and the only possible ally would be Romania (anti-Soviet alliance was signed ) and to lesser degree Latvia and Estonia (friendly neutrality was assured, intelligence cooperation as well) - not counting other friendly powers like Finland or Japan - it all meant that the SU was the most certain enemy in the future.
    Germany were seen as hostile and a possible future enemy too, but against it it was expected that France & co. would actually do something useful - not to support Poland, but for their own good.
    That is why 10 cavalry brigades would be kept for a long time , that is why Polish Navy was built (2/3 of trade was coming through sea, war materials would have major importance in any prolonged conflict) and that is why armoured forces were developped the way they were i.e. initially no heavier tanks because the local bridges wouldn't allow such equipment, no armoured cars (to be entirely replaced by light recon tanks like 4 TP) and major influence on tank design as mobile AT weapons.

    Cavalry would be replaced eventually by mechanized brigades and eventually also (later) by aeromobile brigades.

    In 1939 there were 11 cavalry brigades + two cavalry groups mobilised later ( ad hoc/reserve brigades) - 5 of those ( "Kresowa" Cavalry Brigade received the cavalry regiment of the Border Guards the elite "KOP" during the war) with 4 regiments - all similar in size to smaller cavalry divisions in other countries.
    The first step would be to remove those 4th regiments which would be used as a core for new motorized/mechanized brigades similar in form to the "Radom", 10th Cavalry Brigade (nicknamed by Germans "the Black Brigade") of colonel Maczek and "Warsaw" Brigade of colonel Grot-Rowecki.
    Three-four new such brigades would be created to 1941.
    The remaing units would receive more more compact weaponry - sub-machine guns (most would be used by the armoured forces and the paratroopers), new semiautomatic rifles (the whole army would receive them in coming years - probably as in the first country in the world - exactly like it happened with all-metal monplanes in the early 1930s), new 120 mm mortars and new AA and AT weaponry - perhaps even the rocket propelled granades which were designed.
    The brigades would surely lose their armoured cars which were kept for the time being untill light 4 TP recon tanks are ready (could enter production in 1939, but the coming war meant the plans changed for the moment and tankettes were to receive light AT cannons instead).
    Same would happen to the tankettes which also were to be replaced by 4 TP. Some tankettes could be rearmed to TK-D (light tank destroyer) or TKS with 20 mm long barelled automatic cannon standards.
    Swimming tanks were also considered, but the plan was dropped because their use would be limited to the east and east alone with their huge Prypet marshlands.

    So the future would be - better armed, but still mounted cavalry with new options here and there.

    One cannot forget that cavalry units were expanded by Germans when they attacked the SU while the SU used masses of them for the whole war - local factors meant it remained very useful and as Poland couldn't create two armies to fight two different enemies it had to choose a hybrid of both designs fully equipped by domestic produced weaponry.

    That would happen in 1940-42, while the new industrial base was developed (key factories were opened in 1939, more would follow in 1940 finishing in 1942) - in HoI II terms around 1942 Poland would have 62-65 IC, perhaps more.
    Many of those planend or barely finished factories and shipyards are still working in the military bussiness so not everything was lost during the war.
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  13. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by robw963
    As cool as I think cavalry is, especially Polish cavalry, I don't imagine that they would have continued to upgrade their cavalry units for much longer. In fact, they had already begun the process of converting cavalry units into mechanized units which is really the logical progression for cavalry units in this era.

    In the US, cavalry units eventually become armored recon units or air cavalry (helicopter-borne infantry) in Vietnam. The movies Apocalypse Now or We Were Soldiers both portray that pretty well.
    Actually if you check the OOB of the modern day Polish Army you would notice that armoured brigades and the air cavalry brigade are named in the style of cavalry units and their patrons' names are usually of some famous cavalry commanders (unless its tank commanders as gen. Maczek of course).
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  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach
    Actually if you check the OOB of the modern day Polish Army you would notice that armoured brigades and the air cavalry brigade are named in the style of cavalry units and their patrons' names are usually of some famous cavalry commanders (unless its tank commanders as gen. Maczek of course).

    And they even use German Panzers!
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  15. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekaddict
    And they even use German Panzers!
    Isn't that ironic ?

    Anyway for the time being at least until new designs are ready it will be this mixture of license built T 72s (modernized later in Poland), Polish PT 91 and German Leopard 2A4.
    Tanks are the priority now anyway - new APCs, new artillery (like Krab and Langusta) as well as new helicopters, airplanes and warships have their remands.

    End of off topic.
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  16. #716
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    Okay, okay, just gimmie those Polish taking Essen ^^

    I anticipate the Second Polish-Bolshevik war. I hope you won't turn into yet another WC-ing campaign. Annex Eastern Poland (Ukraine? What the heck?!), put someone competent on the Russian throne (vivat the Romanovs!) and enjoy a new, powerful Poland ^^
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  17. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedrek
    Okay, okay, just gimmie those Polish taking Essen ^^

    I anticipate the Second Polish-Bolshevik war. I hope you won't turn into yet another WC-ing campaign. Annex Eastern Poland (Ukraine? What the heck?!), put someone competent on the Russian throne (vivat the Romanovs!) and enjoy a new, powerful Poland ^^
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  18. #718
    Maybe you could use this idea in your post-war plans?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Międzymorze

    Sorry if anyone has already proposed it.

  19. #719
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    I have plotted a chart showing a comparision of IC levels for Germany and Poland over the course of the last 7 weeks or so. It's a good measure of the success of the 30 Day Operational Plan which culminated in the capture of Berlin. Sometimes the best way to communicate information is with a chart:



    Edit: toned down the blinding white background
    Last edited by robw963; 08-10-2008 at 15:13.

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  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlstadt Boy
    Maybe you could use this idea in your post-war plans?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Międzymorze

    Sorry if anyone has already proposed it.
    No need to be sorry, it's actually a really good idea, although, as you suspected, something that's already been suggested. Piłsudski's Prometheism concept has been raised, but this is the first time I've heard the term Międzymorze. Others have made references to plans for Czech/Polish unions, Lithuanian/Polish unions, Ukrainian/Polish unions, etc. I'll be incorporating elements of these ideas as I shape Poland's future. I have an event which is (mis)named Wielkopolska which will award cores in a fairly broad area outside of Poland's national boundaries. They won't be as broad as suggested in the map in the link you provided since I'm restricting myself to areas which had ethnic Polish populations in the World War II time frame. Thanks for the link though, very interesting to read.

    "We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand, of overwhelming power on the other."
    - George C. Marshall, Chief of Staff

    Current AAR:
    AMERICA Saves the World! last update: February 15, 2013 voted favorite HOI AAR in 2012 Q3 and Q4 ACAs
    Incredibly outdated AARs:
    WIELKOPOLSKA - Rise of the White Eagle - A Polish AAR
    OUR LADY OF SORROWS - The Seven Tragedies of Poland

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