The British Isles Map Mod

Somairle said:

For Kurek and Drachenfire, maybe a connection tween Dyfed and Urmumu? That is where the Deisi Mumu set out from centuries earlier to fight in Demetia (funny, long, odd story behind that whole event). And it was from where the Munstermen got their first longbow regiment (2000 longbows for the fortress of Cashel, in Desmumu on the CK map, was guarded by a permanent, retained regiment of 2000 longbows, imported from Wales at first, and then reinforced later with local bows; they came in through 'East Munster', Urmumu). edit: Heh, a note on that. Those are from the 1080s. They were, in one theory, imitating Welsh mercenaries. The Munstermen and Leinstermen used them a lot to bolster their numbers. In the 1080s, Munster decided to import Welsh longbows, and train their own longbowmen. Just to give some context for the thought given here beyond the 'dark age' (hate that term) connections.

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Sounds good to me, and yes I am familure with the settling of Dyfed by Irish! lol. I think the whole west coast of Wales should be in contact with the east coast of Ireland. The Irish Sea was more a super highway between Wales and Ireland, and according to Davies one of the reasons why the Normans went into Ireland in the first place was to put a halt to Welsh use of Irish mecenaries, and vise versa.

Put another way, the Conquest of Wales was only made possible once the east coast of Ireland was securing in Norman hands.

Side note:

Is it possible to further expand the game map to include Ethiopia? and possible all of Iceland?

With the current map, in my opinion it would even be better to make Iceland a one-province county. That would free up a province that could be used better in an other area of the map.

It is also one of the reasons I personally have lost interest in this map mod (which doesn't mean it is good work by Korek)

But adding 5 counties to Wales is a bit to much, especially since none of these counties seems to have their own rulers at the start of the 3 scenarios, so they aren't selectable. Which makes them not very interesting to me

I would rather see someone make a map-mod that add these counties/provinces f.e.

- Perche (border between Maine/Normandie/Orleans)
- Namur (border between Luxembourg/Hainaut)
- Trier (splitting Andernach in two parts)
- Gaeta (between Rome and Napoli)
- Amalfi (between Napoli and Salerno)
- Logudoro and Gallura (two extra provinces on Sardinia)

I know of course that everybody has there favourite counties and this thread is about the British isles. And I am very sad that I can't get the map-editor to work myself , so I could do it myself.

But Korek, keep up the good work and I will still try to contribute to this map.

Veldmaarschalk said:

With the current map, in my opinion it would even be better to make Iceland a one-province county. That would free up a province that could be used better in an other area of the map.

It is also one of the reasons I personally have lost interest in this map mod (which doesn't mean it is good work by Korek)

But adding 5 counties to Wales is a bit to much, especially since none of these counties seems to have their own rulers at the start of the 3 scenarios, so they aren't selectable. Which makes them not very interesting to me

I would rather see someone make a map-mod that add these counties/provinces f.e.

- Perche (border between Maine/Normandie/Orleans)
- Namur (border between Luxembourg/Hainaut)
- Trier (splitting Andernach in two parts)
- Gaeta (between Rome and Napoli)
- Amalfi (between Napoli and Salerno)
- Logudoro and Gallura (two extra provinces on Sardinia)

I know of course that everybody has there favourite counties and this thread is about the British isles. And I am very sad that I can't get the map-editor to work myself , so I could do it myself.

But Korek, keep up the good work and I will still try to contribute to this map.

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Well, actually I can find the rulers for all of the new counties in Wales for the 1187 map mode, already have actually for most of them, and have already found most of the rulers for the 1066 map mode too.

Maelgwn ab Owain for Ynys Mon, for instance, I just havent posted them.
Also, I have the ruler for the Breacons as well.

In 1066 the Mathrafal family took control of Gwynedd and had ousted most of the families that suported the Aberffraw or had supported the former king Gruffydd of Ruddlan.

The last scenario, most of Wales was in the hands of the English king directly, as it had recently been conqured.

Drachenfire said:

Sounds good to me, and yes I am familure with the settling of Dyfed by Irish! lol. I think the whole west coast of Wales should be in contact with the east coast of Ireland. The Irish Sea was more a super highway between Wales and Ireland, and according to Davies one of the reasons why the Normans went into Ireland in the first place was to put a halt to Welsh use of Irish mecenaries, and vise versa.

Put another way, the Conquest of Wales was only made possible once the east coast of Ireland was securing in Norman hands.

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Well, I wouldn't call the east coast 'secure', so much as too busy during and post-invasion to be bothered with Wales, in fights between Gaels and Normans. And Gaels and Gaels. And Normans and Normans. And Normans with Gaels against Gaels with Normans. ...Lot of fighting is what I'm getting at.

And one must account for Diarmait's hand in it (being the one who hired Norman adventurers in the first place, to help him recover the throne of Leinster after the High King Ruadri and his vassals expelled him due to his support of Ruadri's then-deceased, and much hated, rival). The whole invasion was one bizarre, bizzare occurence. The Normans ultimately held relatively little after the initial invasion, and had to spread more through slow warfare and intermarriages with the Gaels until they were all essentially Gaels too. The ones in Ireland didn't much like the English king as it was (the whole reason Henry went to Ireland was to work out a peace accord with the high king, to try and prevent further warfare and the establishment of a rival Norman state, though he didn't really need to worry at the time of the treaty; most of the places Normans initially captured were lost and they were relegated largely to the east coast for some time).

Kurek said:

Quoting myself to grab Drachenfires attention.

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Hehe! I like the Gwynedd, Perfeddwald, and Ceredigion borders, and also the eastern border with England (though dont cut off any welsh lands, lol.) but the border between Powys Fadog and Powys Wenwynwyn seem too artificially down the middle through. Powys Fadog was the smaller of the two-Powys'. I was looking for geographic features to draw the boundry on but havent found anything to post.

EDIT: Maybe link the division between Fadog and Wenwynwyn in the east to where Ceredigion and Gwynedd meet?


However, if we do leave Powys Fadog and Powys Wenwynwyn as one Powys, then this Powys would be what you show. Then, I would simply rename Cynllibiwg as Maelienydd.

What do you think? Can we see one of each?

I think we really should keep it Ystrad Tywi because in the 1187 scenario... if it were named Carmarthen, then we would have to give it to the English. Whereas if it were Ystrad Tywi, it would still be under Deheubarth's control. Because in 1187 Pembroke/Penfro is in English hands.


THANK YOU for helping Wales out! Wales, as such a small country, is so often overlooked! I cant express how much you have done for the country and how much justice is being rendered to Wales!

@ Somairle: Yes, Secure was too strong a word. Preoccupied, preoccupied by invaders and unable to send mercenaries to the Princes of Gwynedd and Deheubarth that had traditionally suplimented their armies.

Kurek said:

I'm still unsure about keeping Cynllibiwg/Maelienydd and having two seperate Powys provinces, is there really great historical justification for having three counties instead of two? I don't really know all that much about Welsh History (although I am reading Davies' History of Wales!). Although saying that I do currently have 4 ID's free for other provinces due to merging some sea zones, but also remember that I do plan on getting all the British Isles done eventually.

Also: Are the borders of the southern counties up to scratch? I might play around with some of them a small bit only to make them look a bit better, but nothing major unless there are objections raised to specific border issues.



No problem! It's quite fun for me and the Welsh setup always bothered me greatly as well, even more so than the fact that Somerset had stolen Bristols historic (and current) Coat of Arms in the game! And as a Bristolian that makes the blood boil I can tell you!

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You misunderstand, I dotn want 3 provances for a Duchy of Powys, what I ment was :

a. either rename Cynllibiwg as Maelienydd, keep Powys the size that it currently is. (2 provances)


b. rename Cynllibiwg as Powys Wenwynwyn, and the area now known as Powys, rename that as Powys Fadog, just make it half as large as it is now. (2 provances)


Option B alows us to have both branches of the Mathrafal houses in their respective locations, which is desirable for the 1187 scenaio. Option A is more correct for the map as a whole imo. Im leaning more towards option A myself, that what you would not need to change the map for Powys any more then it already is.

The southern borders, well. I think that the borders for Ystrad Tywi, Morgannwg, and Gwent should be as close as possible, but the Brycheiniog could represent also Buellt also, though Buellt could be considered part of Maelienydd/Powys Wenwynwyn.

Here is a site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Medieval_Wales.JPG that may give soem insite for Wales, though its not the best map yet.

Wales in 1066 was still recovering from the brutal rule of King Gruffydd ap Llywelyn of Rhuddlan, with the historic dynasties recovering their realms following his death in 1063. All except for Gwynedd, which passed to the Mathrafal house of Powys.



1066 Dynasties set up:


Gwynedd:
Ynys Môn; give to Bleddyn ap Cynfyn Mathrafal

Our hero Gruffydd ap Cynan Aberffraw, in exile in Dublin, should be given the claim on Ynys Môn as well, and be sure that Gruffydd retains his claims on Duchy of Powys and Deheubarth too.

Side note: I think we should keep the Ynys as part of the name. Count of Ynys Môn has a more poetic ring to it then simply Count of Môn.


Powys:
Maelienydd: Ruled by a 40ish Madog ab Idnerth Maelienydd, with his 5 year old son Cadwallon ap Madog Maelienydd. Add as dead forfathers: as father of Madog: Idnerth ab Elystan Maelienydd (d. 1050), and his father, Elystan Glodrydd (the Renowned) Maelienydd, d 1010.


**If there is not another duchy level tag available for a Duchy of Morgannwg, then the three South Wales counties should not be tagged to any other duchy.


Brycheiniog:
Ruled by a 40-year-old Bleddyn Brycheiniog, and have a one-year-old son named Maredudd ap Bleddyn Brycheiniog (Here, I am using Brycheiniog as the dynasty name).


Deheubarth:

Deheubarth was recovering from the occupation by Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, and Dyfed and Ceredigion should be ruled directly under the Prince of Deheubarth, with the capital in Ystrad Tywi.


***I will also need to get into the dynasties again and reassign what generic dynasties appear where, as with the new provances, some of those dynasties woundnt make sense popping up elsewhere. Ill get to that sometime today.

Kurek said:

Rough drawing of changed borders. How is that? Some of it is rather rough but that's the general gist based upon Drachs suggestions and the map that Veld posted up.

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I really do think this is a good map set up, honestly. If you wish, prehaps we should artifically enlarge the map of Wales somewhat? Or alter the northern part to be a little larger then it is? Prehaps this would be one way to solve the issue with the shields appearning to cover the whole of the province.


We could consider having the three duchies like this (but will need to think on this somewhat):


Duchy of Gwynedd:
Gwynedd, Ynys Mon, Perfeddwald, Powys

Duchy of Deheubarth:
Ystrad Tywi, Dyfed, Ceredigion, Maelienydd

Duchy of Morgannwg:
Morgannwg, Brycheiniog, Gwent

But clearly it seems we need 4 duchy tags in total for an expanded Wales.

I have 10 free duchy tags in DVIP. Posting here so I can't forget:
ARTO
ATRI
GOTL
ISTR
KRAI
MORO (reserved)
PALM (reserved)
STEI
STRY
TYRE

All others are either in Province.csv or used in scenarios.

I am waiting for the updated/redrawn map before I adapt the DVIP to it.

Drachenfire, I would really appreciate it if you could give me the following info by the time the new map is ready:

*) Duchy setup: which provinces (preferably by ID) go into which duchy. Use MORO for Morgannog -- and if we need both Powys and Morgannog, use PALM for Powys

*) Countries in 1066: which characters hold which provinces/duchies? Who is the liege of which province, if not independent? If characters already exist, please give me their ID, otherwise post their stats.

*) Countries in 1187/1337, as per above.

I will of course also need a coat of arms for the new duchy of Morgannog and Powys (if included), and any new province not already in the download, if a sixth one is added.

Kurek said:

What I'll be working on over the weekend:

I guess this thread ought to be renamed; 'British Isles Map Mod'

Somairle has given me a lot of help with that rough draft, still in the planning phases so if anyone else has any suggestions please feel free to chime in!

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Change the name Ard Mammo to Magh Eo or Ui Fiachrach.
Dubb Linn should be Dubh Linn or for a later alternative name Ath Cliath
You could change Urmumu to Deise or Deisi which is still used to this day

czam2007 said:

Change the name Ard Mammo to Magh Eo or Ui Fiachrach.
Dubb Linn should be Dubh Linn or for a later alternative name Ath Cliath
You could change Urmumu to Deise or Deisi which is still used to this day

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Use Magh Eo, not Ui Fiachrach. Using tribe and clan names for provinces would be unusual a lot of the time when that family doesn't actually control it (hence a preference for Aileach instead of Tir Eoghain, since the family for which it was called that wasn't present there yet in 1066, though, like Tir Conaill, at least that name stuck into the modern day; Tyrone and Tyrconnell respectively...but still, I had 1066 in mind). And Ath Cliath was an earlier name for a settlement situated about where Dublin is, and, you know, the modern Irish name, but I'd not use it on this map. It had been outright replaced by Dublin (though, Dublin had also been the name of a monastic settlement that was slightly to the south of where the current city is and may have lended it its name), still inhabited Norse-Gaels at the time. Maybe their old name for it, Dyflin? (Now it has me thinking of a British Isles map all over again...imagine, cultures alone in Ireland and Scotland, there could easily be Gaels, Norse-Gaels, and Norman-Gaels, and that'd be keeping it relatively simple).

Oh, and has anyone yet suggested the reduction of Iceland to a single province so it may be used elsewhere? Would that be disagreeable?

Oh, and has anyone yet suggested the reduction of Iceland to a single province so it may be used elsewhere? Would that be disagreeable?

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I did that, since the western-most one is almost unclickable and the only thing most players do with Iceland is conquer it, give it to a vassal and then forget about it.

It is almost never worthwile to use the troops of Iceland in a war on the continent, especially not once you are over a certain size

Somairle said:

Use Magh Eo, not Ui Fiachrach. Using tribe and clan names for provinces would be unusual a lot of the time when that family doesn't actually control it (hence a preference for Aileach instead of Tir Eoghain, since the family for which it was called that wasn't present there yet in 1066, though, like Tir Conaill, at least that name stuck into the modern day; Tyrone and Tyrconnell respectively...but still, I had 1066 in mind). And Ath Cliath was an earlier name for a settlement situated about where Dublin is, and, you know, the modern Irish name, but I'd not use it on this map. It had been outright replaced by Dublin (though, Dublin had also been the name of a monastic settlement that was slightly to the south of where the current city is and may have lended it its name), still inhabited Norse-Gaels at the time. Maybe their old name for it, Dyflin? (Now it has me thinking of a British Isles map all over again...imagine, cultures alone in Ireland and Scotland, there could easily be Gaels, Norse-Gaels, and Norman-Gaels, and that'd be keeping it relatively simple).

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You could have Norse-Gael culture in Dubh Linn, Tuadmumu, Corcaigh, Urmumu and Laigin to represent the viking settlements in Dublin Limerick Cork Waterford and Wexford respectively.
Norman-Gaels can come in at a later scenerio when FitzGeralds & de Clare's come on the scene in the late 12th and 13th century

czam2007 said:

Somairle said:

Use Magh Eo, not Ui Fiachrach. Using tribe and clan names for provinces would be unusual a lot of the time when that family doesn't actually control it (hence a preference for Aileach instead of Tir Eoghain, since the family for which it was called that wasn't present there yet in 1066, though, like Tir Conaill, at least that name stuck into the modern day; Tyrone and Tyrconnell respectively...but still, I had 1066 in mind). And Ath Cliath was an earlier name for a settlement situated about where Dublin is, and, you know, the modern Irish name, but I'd not use it on this map. It had been outright replaced by Dublin (though, Dublin had also been the name of a monastic settlement that was slightly to the south of where the current city is and may have lended it its name), still inhabited Norse-Gaels at the time. Maybe their old name for it, Dyflin? (Now it has me thinking of a British Isles map all over again...imagine, cultures alone in Ireland and Scotland, there could easily be Gaels, Norse-Gaels, and Norman-Gaels, and that'd be keeping it relatively simple).

Click to expand...

You could have Norse-Gael culture in Dubh Linn, Tuadmumu, Corcaigh, Urmumu and Laigin to represent the viking settlements in Dublin Limerick Cork Waterford and Wexford respectively.
Norman-Gaels can come in at a later scenerio when FitzGeralds & de Clare's come on the scene in the late 12th and 13th century

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Well, if it was a specifically British map, it wouldn't need be 'Tuadmumu' and 'Laigin' and 'Urmumu'; all of those could easily get carved into smaller pieces (namely, the ability to include cities). Of course it's just wishful thinking, such a project would be quite a bit bigger, but it's a fun thought. Norse-Gaels, though, mind would also be on Mann, in the Western Isles and Galloway, Carrick, and chunks of northern Scotland. Oh, and Cill Mhaintain on this map; Wicklow.