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Its' only a matter of changing/adding some things in a few files, so aside from being a bit tedious it isn't all that hard to do.

Thanks for the thread title change Veld!
 
jordarkelf said:
Yes. It's a matter of merging in changes to province.csv and then editing the scenario files so that all provinces are assigned to someone.


kk, then i am really excited by the possibilities.

Concern!


More provinces mean spreading out the income values too, and as the cost in prestige is tied to the income level of the province, we are back to where we were a few years ago with England steam-rolling over Wales, Ireland, and Scotland without any stop-gap and compleatly ahistorically.

We mitigated this by raising the income levels of the Celtic Cressent verses England, and also gave the Saxon Earls rebellion trait and William the Conqeror the Realm Duress trait.

If base income levels are not revisited, then more provinces cheapen the cost of claiming the titles. This would be as untenable now as it was then.

Have we considered this as well?
 
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Drachenfire said:
kk, then i am really excited by the possibilities.

Concern!


More provinces means spreading out the income values too, and as the cost in prestigue is tied to the income level of the province, we are back to where we were a few years ago with England steam-rolling over Wales, Ireland, and Scotland without any stop-gap and compleatly ahistorically.

We worked around this by raising the income levels of the Celtic Cressent verses England, and also gave the Saxon Earls rebellion trait and William the Conqurer the Realm Duress trait.

If base income levels are not revisited, then more provinces cheapen the cost of claiming the titles.

Have we considered this as well?

As it stands I've done nothing to change the income values, the extra provinces are all just 1 or 2 and really only placeholders 'till someone more knowledgeable (i.e. you ;) ) can come up with a better income scheme.
Same with the province improvements, tech levels and all that. It does need a lot of work in those regards, and which dynasties/characters should be where and which counties should be independent (Brycheiniog and Gwent for example) vassals and all that. Also the terrain, I can't remember exactly but I think I put Gwynedd as Mountains and the rest as Hills aside from the Dyfed, Morgannwg and Gwent and possibly Ystrad Tywi (or it might be Hills, not sure) That and making the bloody port icons appear where I want them to, but then half of them in the game are already fubared anyway so that doesn't really matter much.
 
Wales' income for existing provinces should indeed be reduced, so the overall level becomes similar again.
I plan on getting a quick DVIP port to this map out this weekend, finetuning can then follow.
As this is all very new and exciting, it needs obvious balancing in-game. This cannot be done quickly... for now I hope to get the historical setup right first, finetuning can follow.
 
jordarkelf said:
Wales' income for existing provinces should indeed be reduced, so the overall level becomes similar again.
I plan on getting a quick DVIP port to this map out this weekend, finetuning can then follow.
As this is all very new and exciting, it needs obvious balancing in-game. This cannot be done quickly... for now I hope to get the historical setup right first, finetuning can follow.


You mean that the provinced of Wales should be reduced... even though that will expose them again to ahistorical early conquest?
 
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Kurek said:
What I'll be working on over the weekend:

eire3.png


I guess this thread ought to be renamed; 'British Isles Map Mod' :cool:

Somairle has given me a lot of help with that rough draft, still in the planning phases so if anyone else has any suggestions please feel free to chime in!

If I could recommend 'duchies' for a 1066 scenario here;

Breifne - Sligeach and An Cabhan (maybe just at scenario start, but not recreatable if it's lost, in which case Sligeach should be part of Connacht, and An Cabhan part of Ulster)
Connacht - Ard Mammo and Gallimh
Leinster - Laigin, Osraige, Cill Mhaintain
Meath - Uisneach, Brega, and Dubb Linn
Munster - Tuadmumu, Desmumu, Urmumu, and Corcaigh
Ulster - As original
 
Drachenfire said:
You mean that the provinced of Wales should be reduced... even though that will expose them again to ahistorical early conquest?

With 5 more provinces Wales will be harder to conquer since England will have to claim more titles. So that should even things out

Breifne - Sligeach and An Cabhan (maybe just at scenario start, but not recreatable if it's lost, in which case Sligeach should be part of Connacht, and An Cabhan part of Ulster]

There is only a limited amount of duchy-tags, using one for a duchy that is uncreatable would be a shame.
 
Veldmaarschalk said:
With 5 more provinces Wales will be harder to conquer since England will have to claim more titles. So that should even things out.


I remain guarded.

Historian and author Dr John Davies argued that there were four regions in Wales equally blessed with resources and capable of forming the nucleas of a single Welsh kingdom. Gwynedd based on Môn, Deheubarth based on Ystrad Tywi, Glamorgan, and Powys.

My suggestion, if we create more Welsh provinces (thus diluting the value of Welsh titles) would be as follows:

Gwynedd 3
Môn 2
Lower Gwynedd 2

Powys 3
Cynllibiwg 2

Dyfed 2
Ceredigion 2
Ystrad Tywi 3

Glamorgan 3
Breacons 2
Gwent 2

26

This would equalize the four regions, and based on published research by a well respected Welsh historian.
 
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This would equalize the four regions, and based on published research by a well respected Welsh historian.

I very much doubt that he researched the level of wealth of the Welsh provinces compared to all the other provinces in Europe or even just with England

So as a source on this subject he is not very usefull

Splitting Wales up in more provinces, doesn't make the provinces suddenly richer then they were before.

EDIT
And like I said before, dividing Wales into 11 provinces instead of just 6 makes it much more costlier to conquer it

Lets just pretend that the prestige cost for every Welsh province is the same (the lowest level on normal is 150)

On normal you would then have

6 x 150 prestige = 900 prestige

With the new provinces it would be

11 x 150 prestige = 1650 prestige

So increasing the income of Wales to make it harder to claim the titles in Wales isn't a valid point IMHO
 
Veldmaarschalk said:
I very much doubt that he researched the level of wealth of the Welsh provinces compared to all the other provinces in Europe or even just with England

So as a source on this subject he is not very usefull

Splitting Wales up in more provinces, doesn't make the provinces suddenly richer then they were before.

EDIT
And like I said before, dividing Wales into 11 provinces instead of just 6 makes it much more costlier to conquer it

Lets just pretend that the prestige cost for every Welsh province is the same (the lowest level on normal is 150)

On normal you would then have

6 x 150 prestige = 900 prestige

With the new provinces it would be

11 x 150 prestige = 1650 prestige

So increasing the income of Wales to make it harder to claim the titles in Wales isn't a valid point IMHO

In point of fact, Davies is very explicit in noting the economy of Wales in the High Middle Ages, contrasting that with England and in Europe, and even noting professions, down to the commote level of Meirionydd! Granted he does not annotate every commote or region in Wales, but his research is solid. Meirionydd is a remote region in Gwynedd facing Cardigan bay.

And I have had expierence with Wales with lowered incomes, and witnessed how it was overwealmed within a few years. This was the argument for the compleat revision of income levels in the British Isles that many of us participated in a few years ago. Once the income levels were reviewed, in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, then more historical outcomes were the result. What makes the argument less valid now then it was then?

We are not talking about making a province 'more richer' then it was historically, we are talking about balance. If the income levels are not revised, then you may as well make Wales part of England and hand them the title. But this did not happen historically.

Revising the income levels cost little to England, but gives a Welsh player the ability to survive longer, time enough to carve out a nitch to survive the game. Wales was not conquered until 1282, there is no manifest destinty written in the stars that England would conqure the British Isles. If the income levels are not revised, this would be the case, for Scotland, Ireland, and Wales.
 
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Once the income levels were reviewed, in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, then more historical outcomes were the result. What makes the argument less valid now then it did then?

If they are already reviewed, why should that be done again then ? The total income of Wales stays the same, splitting Wales up into more provinces doesn't make Wales magically richer

Wales was not conquered until 1282, it is not some manifest destinty that England would conqure the British Isles. If the income levels are not revised, this would be the case, for Scotland, Ireland, and Wales.

I am going to repeat myself

With 11 provinces it cost almost twice as much to conquer Wales then it now does in vanilla.

So it will be even harder for England to conquer Wales
 
Veldmaarschalk said:
If they are already reviewed, why should that be done again then ? The total income of Wales stays the same, splitting Wales up into more provinces doesn't make Wales magically richer



I am going to repeat myself

With 11 provinces it cost almost twice as much to conquer Wales then it now does in vanilla.

So it will be even harder for England to conquer Wales

The income compromise for Wales was to bring it to 19 base income... which I agreed to with reservation. I am not sure you remember how base it was previously, it was an 11!

The agreed upon base income levels were never incorporated into CK DV vanilla, so those results would show how Wales is conqured ahistorically quickly within a very short periode. It was agreed that the income levels had to be revised to reflect a more accurate scenario.

By having more provinces, it dilutes the value of individual titles, making it easlier for the king of England to claim a Welsh titles. If Gwent were listed as a 1 for instance, an independent Gwent would easily be claimable by anyone around it. A Gwent of 2 would make it more costly, and on par with Herefordshire next to it.

When I played under the old income levels, it was clockwork which Welsh provinces were claimed first, the lowest income levels... but increasing the income levels modestly, more accurate and historic results followed. Playing on hard Wales was always conquered within 15 years!

I dont understand how this concept is not understood. England still claimed the lower titles, but it took him longer to aquire the prestige necessary to claim them, resulting in more accurate historic outcomes. In the mean time he had to divert his attention to internal rebellions, spend his cash on suppresing them, also forstalling a Welsh conquest... or Irish or Scottish conquest... to something more historical.

For now, i have to depart for errands today. But I am firm on the income levels. You may of corse do whatever you want for your own scenario, which is what it will boil down to.
 
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Drachenfire: nobody is proposing making Wales poor... but since the MAIN reason to raise Wales' income was to prevent it from being an easy target, the income for all provinces must now be revised.

Wales is now 19 income. With several added provinces, its income will be higher as well, so care must be taken not to make Wales too rich. It is about a balance of power. The last thing I want is for Wales to conquer Ireland, and maybe even Scotland!

Wales should be treated like any other region. If Herefordshire is 2 income, Gwent can only be 2 income as well if it was as rich. If Gwent was a poor region compared to Herefordshire, it should be a 1.
Keep in mind that even if individual Welsh provinces may be poorer than neighbouring English ones, the fact that there are more of them in total means that Wales will still have enough income to defend itself.
 
No region in Wales that is represented on the map should be below a 2 base rate. IIRC, Hereford is ranked as a 2, and Chester a 2, and Shrewsbury a 2.

Their neighboring Welsh regions per the new map represent a larger portion of both land (except Gwent as compared to Hereford), resources, and manpower then their neighboring English counterparts. Gwent is smaller then Hereford but had a concentrated area of farming land and population.

Additionally, the Welsh population was centered in Gwynedd (Bangor), Ystrad Tywi (Dinefwr) and Llantwit Major for Glamorgan, and Welshpool for Powys, so those regions should be listed as 3.

Considering the new map, Wales should have a revised total to survive visa vi England as it did before the added provances. This is only an increase of 7, it wont affect England at all.


Gwynedd 3 (a decrease of 2, going to Môn)
Môn 2 (2 coming from Gwynedd)
Lower Gwynedd 2 (no change)

Powys 3 (no change)
Cynllibiwg 2 (added)

Dyfed 2 (decrease of 2, going to Ystrad Tywi)
Ceredigion 2 (added)
Ystrad Tywi 3 (2 coming from Dyfed provance, adding 1)

Glamorgan 3 (no change)
Breacons 2 (added)
Gwent 2 (no change)


DV Vanilla= 11* NOT included with ANY changed to Scotland, Ireland, or Wales.


Current DVIP = 19
added = 7
total = 26
 
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The income compromise for Wales was to bring it to 19 base income... which I agreed to with reservation. I am not sure you remember how base it was previously, it was an 11!

The comprise wasn't 19, it was said that 18 should be the maximum of the income of Wales

Base income values in Britain - Revisited?
 
Drachenfire said:
Jord and I had agreed that Dyfed should have been a 4, not a 3 as in the Base Values in Britain.

And now you want to 8 add more or an increase of almost 1/3