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Well throw me some of these O'Riellys and I'll add one in, could add a bunch of 'em, flesh out the family and whatnot, same deal with Corcaigh, throw me out some names and we'll see about adding them. Any other characters or claims, alliances, marriages et.c.

Somairle said:
There exist a few potential O'Reillys; we know of chieftains there, but not who exactly was the one in charge with any clarity until the early 1100s (which doesn't mean much, since, while we know who his dad was, the way Irish inheritance works, he could've as easily become king of the area from inheriting from an uncle, a cousin, a brother, a grandfather...).

Terrain, Corcaigh should be a marsh (the area around the city was a marshland, 'Corcach', whence came the name of the city). Brega should be a plain, An Cabhan could be hills, marsh, or plains (the area covered varied quite heavily between the three at the time, though over time many of the swamps were drained).

Corcaigh itself could probably do with its own ruler, a member of the Ui Caim, Ui Donnchada, Ui Murchertaig, Ui Suilleban, or Mac Cartaig probably, with claims on Desmumu and the duchy of Munster (they were all Eoganacht clans, who had been deposed of rule of Munster by Brian Boru and his family, and were centered with some other tribes in the south, until they later regained rule of the territory, united under the MacCarthy Mor). They were semi-independent and were the majority of the controlling merchant families in Cork at the time as well, along with MacLochlainns and a few other Norse-origin families. Though, it may be fruitless given how many kids Toirdelbach has, and how the AI works (instantly snatching up areas from vassals to replace them with their adult sons). Though, if we talk big map again sometime soon, we could come back to that concept, since there's a lot of territories and tribes in the south in what is mostly Desmumu right now that'd be pretty cool to have a second look at, on a smaller scale map.
 
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Kurek said:
As in me using some of the scenario setup/characters/dynasties et.c. in my mod to flesh it out somewhat, as Wales is extremely bare as you may have already noticed in my plain version. ;)

Actually now I'm considering just distributing a slightly modified full DVIP along with my map mod, as I use DVIP myself and so do a lot of others it seems, also it would make my life easier as I bloody hate and am useless at editing the scenario files, searching for and moving around into my own files the characters and every is a nightmare for me! So would that be permissible? (i.e. can I leach from other peoples hard work ;) )
 
Kurek said:
Actually now I'm considering just distributing a slightly modified full DVIP along with my map mod, as I use DVIP myself and so do a lot of others it seems, also it would make my life easier as I bloody hate and am useless at editing the scenario files, searching for and moving around into my own files the characters and every is a nightmare for me! So would that be permissible? (i.e. can I leach from other peoples hard work ;) )

My fingers are crossed you or the modder who created the original DVIP Wales will take a stab at it :).

The map looks good, thank you for all the hard work creating it.
 
Drachenfire asked me to check in on this, and I must say you've done a right good job, Kurek. Worthy of two Domokuns.

domoKunDance.gif
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That said, as far as Ireland goes, I'd suggest a couple of slight changes.

I would split Osraige into two counties and make them both larger, possibly extending the northern part of Uisneach slightly as well.

The northern one would be Laoighis and extend from the top of Cill Mhantain to the bottom of Gailimh and be ruled by the existing Duchy of Leinster character Faelan O'Mordha. The current arms for Laois would be fine as they include the arms of the O'Mordha dynasty and they would be a vassal of their relatives in Leinster in 1066. The O'Mordha dynasty kept control of Laoighis until the reign of Queen Elizabeth, so it's a shame not to have this important "kingdom" in the game.

The southern one could remain Osraige or be renamed Cill Chainnigh (it already has Coat of Arms of Kilkenny anyway) and would extend from where Laoighis left off to the north and bordering Corcaigh in the south. Desmond is too big. It's default duchy would be Munster, but it was historically independent and it should be ruled by the current count of Osraige. It was actually a coastal province until shortly before the game starts, and that should give you a hint as to how misplaced the area is.

For province values, I would suggest the following:

Tir Connail - 1
Ailech - 4
Ulaid - 3
An Cabhan - 2
Sligeach - 1
Ard Mammo - 1
Gailimh - 1
Brega - 2
Uisneach - 2
Dubh Linn - 5
Cill Mhantain - 1
Laigin - 2
Laoighis - 1
Osraige - 1
Urmumu - 2
Corcaigh - 4
Desmumu - 2
Tuadmumu - 2

TOTAL: 37, as recommended by Drachenfire
 
I'm around less due to family affairs, but of counties, keep in mind, it's a crunch as it is to get space for more, though Kurek and I have discussed further various counties, but at this time, I believe we agreed, the current number is to be used, to avoid getting tied up too long on Ireland, when there's still Scotland and England to do; after, Ireland and Wales may get a second look. Not that I dislike your suggestions, I love those. I wanted to split Ossory (Osraige, for others), but I was in a mindset, at the time, at how annoyingly stale northern Ireland was. Though I'd also love to see the massive Desmumu province cut up a bit, and maybe Iar Connacht, but that's probably daydreaming, given province constraints. I too (assuming you are) was rather displeased with how Osraige was handled, considering it was usually more of a buffer kingdom between Leinster and Munster, and was more often beholden to the Munstermen than the Leinstermen. Ideally, on a 'perfect' map, I'd rather it be its own duchy, like Breifne is on Kurek's (the smallest duchy in Ireland on this map, but I thought that preferable so as to have the O'Rourke/O'Reilly kingdom of Breifne able to act as more of a player in Irish politics than vanilla Sligo was, viably).

And also, do you prefer An Cabhan or Muintir-Maelmordha? The latter is Old Irish though, and would be out of date for most of the period.
 
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I haven't kept up with the thread, so whatever you guys decided, I have no idea.

I agree in part with what you said. Ideally, I'd have liked to see a Duchy of Osraige as well.

I would have Ormond and Kilkenny as a (creatable) duchy of Osraige as later in the game the Earls of Osraige were also the Earls of Ormond (but not Laoighis, which remained independent of the Normans).

I don't honestly see the point of having Wicklow. It wasn't even a kingdom, to my knowledge.
 
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Now I am incredibly excited to hear a whisper that English counties might one day be looked at! I always start as either a Scottish or English count, having heritage from both.

To see either fleshed out a bit would be a boon but to think both might get an extra province/county or two included is excellent news.

Its always irked me Nottinghamshire, which included a major town of the time, was missed off the CK map, part of that is the romanticist in me but partly because 20 years past CK’s start date, it outshone Derby commercially and in terms of population.

I know they shared a common administration but that could just be done with a count/duke owning both in CK’s terms.

There are others i'd like to see of course but I won't spout off too many idea's at this early stage, i'm already extremely appreciative of whats been achieved.
 
Brian Bóruma said:
I haven't kept up with the thread, so whatever you guys decided, I have no idea.

I agree in part with what you said. Ideally, I'd have liked to see a Duchy of Osraige as well.

I would have Ormond and Kilkenny as a (creatable) duchy of Osraige as later in the game the Earls of Osraige were also the Earls of Ormond (but not Laoighis, which remained independent of the Normans).

I don't honestly see the point of having Wicklow. It wasn't even a kingdom, to my knowledge.

Wasn't so much about having a kingdom there, as it was having an administrative district there to be used for later periods (since it was one of the first English-administered areas, and is helpful for defining a more realistic 'Pale'). However, I admit it was probably a poor decision, given that the other choices were made with 1066 in mind...

Though, I do like it as a stage for Enna mac Diarmad to eventually be killed by his brother Murchad's sons (though he was actually killed in Kildare, as I recall, he had support from the men of Wicklow, I could be mistaken though). But that kind of drama would be better handled on a map of the isles, really, I suppose, not one of all Europe, since it was so regionalized.
 
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Yeah. While the potential for such a battle is nice, what I object to is, however, that Enna didn't even rule Wicklow, especially not as a Bishop. He was the King of Leinster (and a claimant of High Kingship) after the death of their father.

At least with Laoighis, we already have the actual rulers in the game. Faelan until 1069, then his son Amargein, who was historically the steward of the King of Leinster as well, and his son Loigsech.

In the game outside of this mod, Enna often inherits Leinster, leaving the descendants of his brother in control of Dublin. That status quo is probably better than the current situation in this mod, as Enna did indeed inherit Leinster, whereas he currently does not. Despite having much higher stats and the right laws, he remains second in line of succession.
 
Brian Bóruma said:
Yeah. While the potential for such a battle is nice, what I object to is, however, that Enna didn't even rule Wicklow, especially not as a Bishop. He was the King of Leinster (and a claimant of High Kingship) after the death of their father.

At least with Laoighis, we already have the actual rulers in the game. Faelan until 1069, then his son Amargein, who was historically the steward of the King of Leinster as well, and his son Loigsech.

In the game outside of this mod, Enna often inherits Leinster, leaving the descendants of his brother in control of Dublin. That status quo is probably better than the current situation in this mod, as Enna did indeed inherit Leinster, whereas he currently does not. Despite having much higher stats and the right laws, he remains second in line of succession.

Well stated, I can get behind that. Though, what of the 'duchy' of Leinster? If Osraige were to be made two counties in this method, and meant as a Duchy, and Wicklow cut, Leinster would only be one county, which is hardly worth a duchy. Really, I think, it's something to be revisited after Scotland maybe, and a reassessment of available provinces.

And now I just wish we had a map of the isles all the more, cause the thought of the sons/grandsons/nephews of Diarmait fighting it out in the wake of his death (and Toirdelbach's ravaging of so many places after Diarmait died, in his bid for kingship) would be such compelling fun.
 
That's why Laois would remain with Leinster as it's default duchy, while the Duchy of Osraige would be comprised of Ormond and Kilkenny, the lands ruled by the Earl of Osraige/Earl of Ormond. Laois was always part of Leinster, and it was a hereditary position for the King of Laoighis to be the steward of the King of Leinster. As it stands, Munster has four counties and would be fine with losing one.

The Count of Osraige always gets removed by the Duke of Leinster within the first few months anyway. :(
 
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Kurek said:
Actually now I'm considering just distributing a slightly modified full DVIP along with my map mod, as I use DVIP myself and so do a lot of others it seems, also it would make my life easier as I bloody hate and am useless at editing the scenario files, searching for and moving around into my own files the characters and every is a nightmare for me! So would that be permissible? (i.e. can I leach from other peoples hard work ;) )

I'm really hesitant on this... DVIP is still very much my pet so the prospect of someone else taking it and modifying it, without my input, is not really something I look forward to.

Kurek, can you either send me a PM with your e-mail, or contact me through e-mail at jordik2gmail*com, with 2 the at sign and * the dot? I'm sure we can come to a solution but I don't want to clutter the forum too much (it's unreachable half the day for me anyway :( )
 
Drachenfire said:
... the Scottish capital province should always be the lands between the forth and the tay, to the west of Fife Mormaerdom, to the north of Stirling, and south of Badenoch and northern Atholl ... i.e the Scone-Perth-Dunkeld district ... and that's best represented by the Atholl province.

This area in the CK period is called Gouerin, i.e. Gowrie. The tricky thing with the default Scotland-north-of-the-Forth map is that it is based on the existence of Mormaerdoms (drawn, a paradox often does, from modern council maps), so that the king has no land there, despite that being where he had most of his land. If the great Kurek finds it in his heart to break in Gowrie (Perth/Scone-Dunkeld, etc) and the Mearns (Aberdeen), the king will have some land other than the confiscated earldom of Moray and the pieces of the Northumbria earldom he grabbed in the wake of its destruction by the Normans.
 
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Calgacus said:
Maybe something like this, or am I being greedy? :rofl:

scotmap02.jpg


Of all, Annandale, Badenoch (including Gamoran) and Fothriff are most expendable, as is Sutherland and possibly Angus, but the rest are too important not to be in! :cool:

Just adding some notes that may be of use:

Lothian is drawn like this because this reflects actual royal territory for the pre-1286 period of CK. It is aligned along "Dere Street", the old Roman road which in the 11th century was the invasion path between the outpost of Edinburgh and rich pickings of Durham and southern Bernicia, by-passing the militarily tricky northern Bernicia (Dunbar to Bamburgh), which remained under Northumbrian control after the Normans destroyed the earldom, under Scottish vassalage (the earldom of Lothian/Dunbar/March). In the 12th century the area was filled with wealthy sheep-raising monasteries under the king with the royal burgh of Roxburgh set up to control it.

Badenoch includes Lochaber, which although a different province shared the same lords for most of CK period (Moray, probably then the MacWilliam claimants to Moray & Scotland, then the Comyns).

Annandale I put in just because some players might like to play as the Bruce family in the 1187 scenario! :) Strathearn and Lennox are two powerful semi-independent mormaerdoms (the king has almost no power to do anything but ask the earl to lead soldiers and give cain) that are very well documented after the 1100s, for which see Native Lordship in Medieval Scotland: The Earldoms of Strathearn and Lennox by Cynthia Neville. The Mormaer of Strathearn was officially the third most important figure in the community of Scotland, after the king and the Mormaer of Fife. ;)

Strathearn and Gowrie would both if they were introduced come mainly from the Atholl province. Atholl itself was a wild mountainous fastness to European civilization for this whole period, and though important, its inclusion is not as vital to accurate historical dynamics as Gowrie and Strathearn, though it is still more important than Badenoch, Annandale and Sutherland.

Also, just out of curiosity, is it possible to add the isle of Islay to the map? It is larger in land area than many of the islands already on the map, and along with Argyll and Innse Gall, would complete the triplet of great Mac Somhairle west Highland lordships. It is of course the lordship of the MacDonalds. Argyll is MacDubhghall and Innse Gall is MacRuaidhri until the latter was taken over by Islay in the 14th century and the former by the Campbells late in the same century.
 
Earl Uhtred said:
How about extending Dunbar out to meet Annandale, so a southern power can't just walk into Edinburgh?

Hi Uhtred, long-time no hear. An age old concern of yours, if I remember from EU III discussions. In CK period, before the 14th cent. at least, a southern power could just walk to Edinburgh (which was confiscated, along with all the other Lothian castles, by Henry II), which for most of this period is an outpost rather than a centre, and is not the capital. Gowrie/Atholl, the capital, is buffered by Lothian and Fife.
 
Calgacus said:
Hi Uhtred, long-time no hear. An age old concern of yours, if I remember from EU III discussions. In CK period, before the 14th cent. at least, a southern power could just walk to Edinburgh (which was confiscated, along with all the other Lothian castles, by Henry II), which for most of this period is an outpost rather than a centre, and is not the capital. Gowrie/Atholl, the capital, is buffered by Lothian and Fife.

OK, let me rephrase: walk into Lothian. It's a matter of physical geography for me. There's hills in the way. It should not be easier to walk up the spine than it is up the coast.