The British Isles Map Mod

Maybe something like this, or am I being greedy? :rofl:



Of all, Annandale, Badenoch (including Gamoran) and Fothriff are most expendable, as is Sutherland and possibly Angus, but the rest are too important not to be in!

From that list, Annandale, Lothian and Dunbar are English-speaking and there's little reason to put their names in Gaelic. Sutherland and Caithness were called in medieval Gaelic "Cat" or "Cait". Caithness, like Orkney (Innse Orc) and Shetland (Innse Chait, Hjalt + land, Hjalt being the Norse rendering of the Celtic genitive of Cat), is a Gaelic Norse hybrid, meaning "nose of [the territory] of the Cat [people]". The north-eastern part of Caithness that was Norse speaking was later called "Gallaibh", meaning "foreigner's [land]", and the territory known in English as Sutherland kept the name Cait in Gaelic (this is confusing even in English, as the bishopric of Cait is in "Sutherland" but is called "bishopric of Caithness"). Strathclyde could be Clydesdale, but there is no historical reason for the remainder to have English names, any more than any of the Irish or Welsh provinces, and certainly if even Dublin is going to rendered in Irish. Scotland's special though as many seem to want Scotland to be as English as possible. C'est la vie.

Western Isles should probably be Innse Gall, which is its name throughout the period (Inchegal in later medieval Scots English). Hebrides is a later learned word, and Western Isles is silly. Suðreyjar is another possibility, as it is the Norse name which enjoyed currency for most of the period too, though this term unlike Innse Gall includes Mann. Orkney and Shetland should be rendered in Norse.

Somairle said:

To be fair, neither the Western Isles, nor Caithness, should be Norwegian, perse, nor Irish or Scottish; they had their own mesh/pidgin language and names for most of the places they lived (though some were effectively identical to one or the other base language that formed their own).

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What I meant was that in-game those province have Norwegian/Norse culture.

Kurek said:

I might nick the setup from DVIP Wales if jord and co do not mind, well nick a few things.

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Go right ahead.

Cill Mhaintain is being counted as part of Meath, should be part of Leinster, when one is creating duchies (since it's Wicklow, which was most definitely part of, and remains part of, Leinster). Corcaigh should be at least as well-off as Dublin. An Cabhan eventually needs to start with its own count, loyal to Breifne, part of the O'Reilly clan. Who exactly was lord of the east is hard to say, except he was an O'Reilly (Ua Raghallaigh, will need a new tag for the family too). Also, the new Welsh duchies still have the associated middle eastern provinces as requirements that were used to create them. A ton of fun to play around with though, playing in Ireland feels much better, and gaining the title of King of Ireland doesn't require one to own so much (spacially) of the island, which is nice, and more realistic (most of the real high kings in more than name still really only effectively controlled about 2/3rds to 3/4s of the island at their heights, only a few actually controlled the whole thing for any serious period of time without some opposition cropping up). Little things (Ard Mammo to Maigh Eo, Cill Mhaintain being considered part of Leinster if one were to create the duchy, or give out the title, things like that) and it'd be just marvellous. It is a hell of a lot of fun to play with, and looks great.

Kurek said:

Aye I forgot to redistribute the Duchy/province doodads, I'll get onto that at once, as well as the embarrassing Powys and Morgannwg in the middle east

Re. province income, I just tried to keep it as balanced as I could from the original map, so for the new provinces I took 1 or 2 from surrounding provinces in order to keep it balanced. Oh and also terrain, it's probably all plains for the new provinces, I can't remember so any suggestions there would be grand, and that includes the rest of ireland as well. So terrain and income needs a go over I think.

I was going to put an O'Reilly in East Breifne but as you said it seems no one knows much about them back then, so the best we can do is just invent someone for 1066, which I'm not too sure about...

Some other things that need doing as well, I'll toss out a patch when that gets done.

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There exist a few potential O'Reillys; we know of chieftains there, but not who exactly was the one in charge with any clarity until the early 1100s (which doesn't mean much, since, while we know who his dad was, the way Irish inheritance works, he could've as easily become king of the area from inheriting from an uncle, a cousin, a brother, a grandfather...).

Terrain, Corcaigh should be a marsh (the area around the city was a marshland, 'Corcach', whence came the name of the city). Brega should be a plain, An Cabhan could be hills, marsh, or plains (the area covered varied quite heavily between the three at the time, though over time many of the swamps were drained).

Corcaigh itself could probably do with its own ruler, a member of the Ui Caim, Ui Donnchada, Ui Murchertaig, Ui Suilleban, or Mac Cartaig probably, with claims on Desmumu and the duchy of Munster (they were all Eoganacht clans, who had been deposed of rule of Munster by Brian Boru and his family, and were centered with some other tribes in the south, until they later regained rule of the territory, united under the MacCarthy Mor). They were semi-independent and were the majority of the controlling merchant families in Cork at the time as well, along with MacLochlainns and a few other Norse-origin families. Though, it may be fruitless given how many kids Toirdelbach has, and how the AI works (instantly snatching up areas from vassals to replace them with their adult sons). Though, if we talk big map again sometime soon, we could come back to that concept, since there's a lot of territories and tribes in the south in what is mostly Desmumu right now that'd be pretty cool to have a second look at, on a smaller scale map.

The COA for Meath in CKDV, is it a valid 1 to have? Ive never come across it before and will the 3 castles be used for Dublin or is that a later period

czam2007 said:

The COA for Meath in CKDV, is it a valid 1 to have? Ive never come across it before and will the 3 castles be used for Dublin or is that a later period

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I don't know where they got it from, I'd definitely change it. I was thinking the one for the kings of Uisneach, which was also used by the kings of Meath, which is just a depiction of a bishop (alternatively described as Patrick or any number of the saints he trained) on a blue field. I believe there's a version of it in one of the COA packs. Dublin, the three castles is an English flag that was brought in to my recollection. There's a number of flags described as being used by the men of Dublin.

Do You mean this flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Mide.png

Does it not represent the fact Tara is in Meath and it is the seat of the
Ard Rí

czam2007 said:

Do You mean this flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Mide.png

Does it not represent the fact Tara is in Meath and it is the seat of the
Ard Rí

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Yeah, I was thinking of a variant of it that has to do with the bishop of Armagh (a lot of them, at one time, were from the southern Ui Neill, and they had some modified flags that featured bishops instead of kings, with a miter and such). Though I like that much better, and would look quite a bit nicer than the current COA.

Yeah, the current 1 looks like it belongs to a Polish Duchy.

Kurek said:

British Isles Map Mod v.0.3

Download here!

I realised after about ten minutes of uploading this that there was some stuff that I forgot to do, change a few names and re-assign a few 'duchy' things, but ah well. This will do for now. I also have done nothing new with Wales, still the same old. I might nick the setup from DVIP Wales if jord and co do not mind, well nick a few things. I already stole a couple of CoA's hope nobody minds.

Oh and also for some queer reason Breifne appears in the County selection list rather than the Duchy. Probably some minor thing but ah well. Thanks a lot to Somairle for the help with Ireland, CoA's, county assignment and whatnot, and also he tells a good tale re; laser beam eyed giants.

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Your maps are astounding! Paradox should have employed you to redraw the map for all of Europe! The Wales set up is practically perfect and correct in the DVIP Wales set up. I have one dynasty to add for 1187 ... the Maelienydd dynasty found there. Jord in DVIP Wales rightly has four duchies, each correctly representing the four primary regions where a unified Welsh state would have had its foundations, according to Professor Davies.

jordarkelf said:

Go right ahead.

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What do you mean by nick the DVIP Wales?

Kurek said:

Re. province income, I just tried to keep it as balanced as I could from the original map, so for the new provinces I took 1 or 2 from surrounding provinces in order to keep it balanced. Oh and also terrain, it's probably all plains for the new provinces, I can't remember so any suggestions there would be grand, and that includes the rest of ireland as well. So terrain and income needs a go over I think.

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This was the suggested increase for Ireland suggested by Calgacus in the Base Income Revisited. I know I had asked Jord to include this revision into the DVIP, but do not remember off had if it was included. I wont be home for a few hours so wont be able to check.

Anywhose, Wales' increase was from 11 to 26; (11 in CK DV Vanilla, 19 in DVIP) given the increase in provinces and also given the inate value of the regions in Wales.

I recommend Calgacus list below, plus an additional 7 value points distributed around Ireland as seen fit.

I think then maybe England should be cut a little; ideally, England should not have too much more manpower than Ireland and Scotland combined. Anyways, here is a suggestion for Ireland. Tir Eoghain could even have four, but it wasn't particularly wealthy, and definitely not stronger than Atholl, so left at 3.

A suggestion

Tir Connail 2
Tir Eoghain 3
Ulaid 2
Sligo 2
Mayo 2
Galway 2
Mide 2
Dublin 4
Osraige 2
Tuadmuru 2
Desmuru 3
Urmumu 2
Laigin 2

TOTAL: 30

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This was the suggested version for Scotland recommened by Calcagus, and again I recommend these as well. With an increase of 7 in line with the Wales increase.

OK. I'm kinda limited in what I can do, cause so many provinces have just one base income.

Current numbering

Shetland - 1
Western Isles - 1
Orkney - 1
Caithness - 1
Sutherland - 1
Ross - 1
Moray - 1
Buchan - 1
Mar - 2
Angus - 2
Atholl - 3
Argyll - 1
Fife - 2
Strathclyde - 2
Lothian - 3
Carrick - 2
Galloway - 1
Berwick - 3
Cumberland - 1
Man - 1

Total, 31


Here would be my suggestions
Suggested numbering

Shetland - 1
Western Isles - 2
Orkney - 1
Caithness - 1
Sutherland - 1
Ross - 1
Moray - 3
Buchan - 1
Mar - 1
Angus - 1
Atholl - 4
Argyll - 1
Fife - 3
Strathclyde - 1
Lothian - 2
Carrick - 2
Galloway - 1
Berwick - 2
Cumberland - 1
Man - 1
Total - 31

In case CK can find it in its heart to take Scotland's base income up to 40, here would be my suggestions, based on capital balancing, and a balance between manpower and economics. So for instance, the manpower of Norse-Gaelic lands such as Galloway, Carrick, Argyll and the Western Isles is huge compared with Lothian and Berwick, but we wouldn't want the Scottish kings basing their capital there

... the Scottish capital province should always be the lands between the forth and the tay, to the west of Fife Mormaerdom, to the north of Stirling, and south of Badenoch and northern Atholl ... i.e the Scone-Perth-Dunkeld district ... and that's best represented by the Atholl province.

With Total 40

Shetland - 1
Western Isles - 2
Orkney - 2
Caithness - 1
Sutherland - 1
Ross - 2
Moray - 3
Buchan - 2
Mar - 2
Angus - 2
Atholl - 4
Argyll - 2
Fife - 3
Strathclyde - 2
Lothian - 2
Carrick - 2
Galloway - 2
Berwick - 3
Cumberland - 1
Man - 1

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