A comment on comments

[Herbert West]

First off, I know I wont win many friends with what I am going to write here, but some things quickly amounted to the proverbial last straw on the camel-back of my patience.

First of, a couple of semi-relevant statements and observations.

a, the majority of things created by humans, is, by definition, mediocre. And there is nothing wrong with it, as all the really memorable and superb pieces of any art or sience are swimming in a necessary sea of mediocricity. For every Picasso, there are a hundred non-remembered painters, and the same goes for every other field. Sometimes, the mediocre stuff even serves as the ground or base out of which superlatively described masterpieces go. Such is the way of the world.

b, The majority of humans is, like their work, mediocre. Gaussian distribution and all that.

c, People usually have overblown egos, and are prown to poo-flinging and overplayed whining more fitting for Kindergarten or a zoo.

And now, onto the cake.

I have long ago noticed a ceratin trend in the comments on this part of the Paradox Fora.

With a very, very small margin, almost all of them are conglaturlatory and praising one-liners. While such comments are certainly needed (I am well aware of my own hypocrisy here, as I have repeatedly whined for comments in my own AAR's), perhaps something a little more colourfull and deep is also needed from time to time. Oh, and I personally hate smiley-invasions.
Does this look mature? We are not 13 year old emo girls here.

And those that are not generic one-liners are mostly flamebait. Sadly. Or de-rails of the thread and aar, which is even more sad. There are some HOI2 AARs that have page-long, completely offtopic "discussions" in them, which are both unneeded and annoying. We have an OT for a reason, we have a PM system for a reason, etc.

And now, the critical respones are also overtly positive in almost all cases. While this is, again, also needed, there is nothing wrong with some negative criticism.

Take me, for example. I consider myself at best to be a mediocre writer, and I never seem to get the whole of my message across, and sometimes I feel like one chapter has completely failed to deliver the blow I expected it to be. Maybe I am a perfectionist, yes, but that does not really matter now. What matters is the complete absence of any negative, constructive criticism. Seriosly, If you do not write about waht is wrong or what could be improved, improvement will be a lot slower or non-exsistant.

Of course, there is always the fear of the criticised behaving like point c, but I assume that we are all mature enough to swallow some of our overblown egos and take notice of our flaws. We all have some. Period.

So, for the generic commenter crowd: Be a little more imaginative, use metaphors, for example (I regulary try this where possible, though this could get on the nerves of some), write something a little more colourfull than before. Quality before quantity.

For the spamiard, de-railer, flamer crowd: If you have nothing valuable and/or ontopic to add, shut your gob. Server space is too costly for your idiocies.

And for the critics: Do not be afarid to criticise in a negative way, as long as its at least marginally constructive. Lauret leaves are all afir and good, but thron-crowns have to be handed out as well (<--- example for the generic crowd).


Again, I am very much aware of my own hypocrisy here, but I think somebody had to say it, and I eagerly take on such roles.

Comment away, fellow writers.

[comagoosie]

I am with you herbert, I do the same thing. I read AARs and then I try to focus all my thoughts onto writing something down. In a way I think of it as I am reviewing an online book. I do include some criticism, though I do not let that be my main point of view, as if it was, then there would be 25% less AARs

Anyways, I do believe you. In fact my comments used to be the same. My first comment on Timelines was

Unbelieveable

But from there on out I have strove for me to dig deeper into comments. Don't just read an AAR to comment, but read an AAR to enjoy it. There is a difference. And that difference is all it takes.

[Snugglie]

I believe you've got a very good point that most of us agree to, Herbert. At the same time, I don't mind "unconstructive" comments as they show that someone is reading, and enjoying, what I write, and I am all happy with that.

Regarding my own commenting habits, I know that I am bad at finding constructive criticism for other people's works. In that way, it would be motivated for me to merely be quiet and not say anything, but well... everybody wants comments, and patronage is better than nothing.

Since I am basically only in the CK-forum there are basically no flamers though, and that is good -- flame-wars never give anything to the writer, and should be avoided.

So basically, I believe you're simply saying what everybody is thinking.

[The Swert]

Well i don't know about flamebaiting, we don't get any of that in the EUII forum.

Whilst I agree with many of your sentiments Herbert, I still think that quantity comes before quality. There are many AARs which the author abandons due to lack of comments, even a simple "Keep it coming" can be what the author needs. Constructive criticism, deeper questions and gameplay suggestions are all much better though and i'm not too good at that; infact i'm not too good at getting myself to comment at all.

[Enewald]

Are you sure there are no 13 year old emo girls here?

But I agree with you.
Darn, I can't say 'this thread sucks, your text is horrible'
I am too used to saying nice comments.

With all these crazy smilies.

Really, I actually hate these smilies.

But still I use them, just because I can.

The worst flame wars are in eu3 and hoi forums, since there are the most readers.
But I don't think some aars should be moves to OT since they contain something spammy. Spam is there and shall allways be.

But in future I will try to write a bit different comments. But I just love some aars. And every post I make in such aars however spammy it is makes me happy.

I just love this aarland.

But when you ask people to use metaphors and stuff in their comments, you have to remember that not everyone here speaks native english or close to that.

It is just easier to say 'good aar, I like it' than saying else which requires more effort.

[phargle]

a, the majority of things created by humans, is, by definition, mediocre. And there is nothing wrong with it, as all the really memorable and superb pieces of any art or sience are swimming in a necessary sea of mediocricity. For every Picasso, there are a hundred non-remembered painters, and the same goes for every other field. Sometimes, the mediocre stuff even serves as the ground or base out of which superlatively described masterpieces go. Such is the way of the world.

The majority of comments left by humans are, by definition, mediocre. And there is nothing wrong with it, as all the really memorable and superb comments are swimming in a necessary sea of mediocrity. For every RGB, there are a hundred non-remembered commenters, and the same goes for every other forum. Sometimes, the mediocre stuff even serves as the ground or base our of which superlative comments go. Such is the way of the world.



I think a certain percentage of work on these forums will be good. Quality here is not driven by peer reviews or constructive criticism; it's driven by supply and demand. There is a given supply of commenters, and we writers want them to read our work (and comment to prove they've read it and liked it.) Even a string of smileys indicates that someone is reading, and reinforces good behavior. When the responses drop off, a writer interested in maintaining readership will have to reassess what he's doing and make a better product to bring back commenters.

We have some good writers here, but I don't think the pool of writers is sophisticated enough to provide solid critiquing. It is, however, sufficient to guide writers to goodness through a pleasure/pain response: " I like it lolz!" versus no responses will, over time, guide even a chimpanzee to write a Seinfeld episode.

This is not a perfect system because a writer will often struggle to figure out what he's done wrong, and it's much harder to bring back readers than to attract them in the first place. . . but, going back to your distribution, an honest assessment of the human condition forces us to conclude that a good writer will generally be able to figure out what went wrong, provided that they can set ego aside - while a fundamentally mediocre writer will have a slimmer spectrum within which they can improve. I don't know if I completely agree, but the constellation of experience, time, creative training and language comprehension can speed up or slow down the learning process to such a point that we might as well use labels like "good" and "mediocre" to describe writers. Onward:

And, if you are an exception to that generality (and many writers are), there's nothing preventing you from asking in your own AAR for constructive criticism. I think the protected writing environment provided by these forums works because criticism is generally banned, and encouraging it across the board will probably not work - but soliciting it on a case-by-case basis? That can and does work, because it means only those who want such feedback will get it, and those who are not yet equipped to deal with such feedback will be protected from it.

Now go comment in my AAR, you jerk.

[phargle]

There are many AARs which the author abandons due to lack of comments, even a simple "Keep it coming" can be what the author needs.

Bingo! They say the way to be a good writer is to read a lot and write a lot. Reading other people's AARs and posting "keep it coming!" is step one; being motivated to keep writing your own AAR because someone read it and posted "lolz" is step two.

[Director]

There is definitely an art to writing a 'good comment'. Almost anyone who writes an AAR develops a favorite commentator. If a reader can give me detailed, in-depth illumination and exposition, I am in heaven - but a simple 'Good job' or the equivalent shows me they are at least reading.

[Lord Finnish]

I write a lot here because I have no friends and I have a really bad self-esteem. Yeah, I am a wimp. I never liked my personality of being the guy with lot to say but that actually says nothing useful.

But wow, your post really made me feel stupid. I know that I am maybe most annoying poster here, and nobody really likes my opinions, but I can shut up if anyone asks for it.. A moderator can lower my postcount if s/he wants, I don't give a crap.

I'll try to post something more usefull now on...

[PrawnStar]

I'd certainly agree with much of what Herbert says - but then it's also true that this is a hobby no more and we write and comment for pleasure. If we're not great at it nevermind.

Having started my first AAR a few weeks ago I find I do check my view count and new posts every morning before going to work, every comment helps and is interesting (Yes, I do log on to the forum at 6.45am weekdays )

It's also the case that not every author wants anything other than adoring comments. The one time I commented in an AAR in a way I believed was constructive but not positive the author asked me to stop reading as he didn't spend his spare time writing just so that some other person could upset him.

[EvilSanta]

Well I personally think your post was just marvellous!

[Lord Durham]

There's a huge difference between a critic and a critique. If you ask someone to criticize your work, then be careful was you ask for. The vast majority of people write their AARs with no pretensions beyond providing a platform to let others read about their gaming exploits. They neither ask, nor expect, to be taken to task by some nitpicker who thought the sky should have been red at sunset instead of lavender. Or the colour of the striping on the pantleg was wrong.

Unsolicited comments like narrative AARs suck or this isn't interesting have no place here, as do spam posts and AARs that go off into OTland. Contrary to some thinking, criticism of an AAR isn't a bannable offense. However, common sense and common courtesy should always prevail.

Asking for readers to critique your work implies that you want the reader to take the time to intelligently comment/dissect/suggest/propose ideas for your work. If that's what you want, then all the power to you. At the end of the day it's up to the author what advice they will ultimately use. If that's what you are looking for, then let the readers know (and if you have already, remind them periodically). From experience I've found it easier to critique (if asked) an AAR that poses interesting questions, has a plotline open to multiple interpretations and features intriguing characters. And sometimes I'll even be asked to comment on writing.

So, unless the author invites critiques, I think it best to keep the comments neutral, but definitely keep them coming.

------------

[stnylan]

A post about comments in AARland GD. Why, I feel almost obligated to make a comment in this being, being as I am, a compulsive commentatAAR

Now that is out the way - onto the subject. I know exactly where you are coming from. As a writing wanting constructive criticism and feedback the forums are often a disappointment, but saying that I feel I should offer a thorough explanation of why this is the case, and also why it is not, in fact, a problem.

Why is detailed constructive commentary so rare? The answer is simple - time. When I have proffered a detailed critique of a post it can take over an hour to prepare and write. Even a less fulsome critique can take twenty or thirty minutes, and that can be a considerable chunk of someone's time on the internet of an evening.

A contributory factor would be work - writing a constructive critique takes effort, and frankly after a day's work people are not always in the mood to be able to make that effort. They just want to relax.

Thirdly, even if the writer has solicited critiques there is no guarantee how they will be received. I am not necessarily talking about the writer here, who might be very well pleased with detailed criticism, but by other readers who can sometimes turn on particular piece of criticism thinking it unfair or over-the-top, or somethign else. In other words, writing such critiques sometimes create more hassle than anyone would want to deal with from the outset.

So, what we get on the whole is a less intensive brand of commentary. And this is vitally important to the continued success of many AARs. The vocal support of the community, be it in a gameplay, historybook, narrative, or any other format of AAR is often the oxygen that keeps these things breathing. And indeed, let us look at the situation from the other side a moment, from the point of view of the prospective commentator. A sentiment I find frequently expressed by people who rarely comment is that they don't know what to say. But with a very few exceptions I know almost no writers who, when facing a choice of no comments, or a few simple 'good updates' would choose the former over the latter.

And in any event, commentating can be habit-forming (I should know). But what I really mean is that once people start to learn how to make simple comments, they might start making more complicated ones. You have to learn to crawl and walk before you can run.

And finally - a decent comment does not have to be a full critique. A remark about how they perceive something, or maybe a question that they are curious about. It might only take a dozen words to write, but can be as thought-provoking as something two pages long. Even in ordinary seeming commentary there can be some real nuggets of gold if you look for them.

But even they pale into insignificance when you consider the true value of comments - the fact that we have AARs at all. For without even the simplest of comments, many of the AARs on these boards would end prematurely. Thus, while it might be nice to have a greater number of more constructive comments, in our wistfulness let us not lose sight of the greater truth: that we have comments at all.

[Estonianzulu]

Interesting points Herbert West.


~~

I know that personally, when I can, I write in depth comments to the best of my ability. For example, I try to take what I feel about the actions or the events of the post. Or, perhaps more often I try and predict the upcoming events. I hope these are helpful in inspiring people to continue their writing.

[likk9922]

Good start. I look forward to more!

[merrick]

Interesting discussion. While I can understand where Herbert West is coming from, I have to say I subscribe to the opposite philosophy - if you can't say something nice (or at least neutral), say nothing.

Firstly, because in online communication, where everything is in (often abbreviated) written format with little context and no tone, it is all-too-easy too come over harsher than you intended. If the author thinks you're being rude, or vindictive, or over-critical, it doesn't matter what your intentions were - not only is your criticism wasted, but you've just started a flamewar.
This is a particular issue in a board like this one, with a very diverse readership, many of whom don't speak English as a first language, with a wide diversity of opinion about what is and is not acceptable criticism.

Secondly, because people write AARs for many reasons, and not all writAARs are interested in developing their writing skills beyond the minimum necessary for getting their point across. Criticising writing style in a pure gameplay AAR (beyond the basic "I don't understand what happened here - can you spell it out?") is like criticising historical accuracy in a comedy AAR - it's beside the point.

Thirdly, because most writers - especially new or amateur ones - are extremely sensitive about their work. Criticism - especially from strangers - needs to be handled delicately, and the board format, where everything is in public and permanent, isn't really suited to delicacy. While the old hands have (mostly likely) developed thick enough skins to brush off the occasional dart, there are plenty of newbies out there who haven't had the practice. What I'd rather not see happening is:
1) Nervous Newbie posts his first work, of which he feels quite proud.
2) Amateur Critic (sincerely intending to be helpful) goes in boots first.
3) Nervous Newbie flees into the darkness and is never heard from again.
Unless the author is explicitly seeking criticism, tread lightly.

I will always remember the first time I put something up for critique (and this was in a small on-line writers' group, where I thought I knew what I was letting myself in for). I posted a 10-page story; I got back a 15-page opus basically shredding my work line by line. If it had been posted somewhere as public as the AAR forums, I don't think I'd ever have gone back.

And finally, please, please don't discourage people from posting comments because they're "not good enough" or "can't think of anything to say." As stnylan said, comments are the board's lifeblood. If there's anything more discouraging than getting negative feedback, it's getting the Awful Silence.

Oh, and a follow-up to something else stnylan said - this post has taken me 45 minutes to write. There are only so many minutes in the day...

[comagoosie]

And in any event, commentating can be habit-forming (I should know). But what I really mean is that once people start to learn how to make simple comments, they might start making more complicated ones. You have to learn to crawl and walk before you can run.

There has been no truer statement then that.

Also another point that I would like to add, is how to react to an update.

An author always asks if the length is good or whatnot, I know it happens, even I do it. Why we ask is because we want to please our readers or gain a few more. Now what I believe in is not the length, but the content. For example, if someone writes a textbook style that is almost 6,000 words, a lot of readers will forget all that information and the only thing that will be in their mind is "that's a lot of information". Also, that chapter cannot be read by himself, so this might lure in new readers to read the previous chapters and figure out what in the world is going on.

So remember, it is not the length, but the content.

Then there are updates that are 100-200 words, but there is an infinity to comment on. It is weird, I know, but it is true.

Has anyone read Captain Underpants? If so you know what I am talking about. There is a chapter in every book that the words are "They made it." This may not seem like a lot, but it is linked to a past update, therefore it means that the reader has a lot more to comment on.

[Bingo Brett]

For some of us new to AAR writing, commenting and reacting to them are two entirely different things. Like many have said, as an author, I like to see comments because then I know people are reading. That motivates me to write more. Maybe I'll even start a second AAR sometime...

As a reader though, I find I refrain from commenting just because I don't think my comment will provide that much value. At some point I'll find a happy middle.

[El Pip]

As a reader though, I find I refrain from commenting just because I don't think my comment will provide that much value.

Any comment adds value, even a one liner to show someone is reading is better than a blank.

Yes longer and more involved comments speculating on plot or picking up on subtle clever ideas are great. But anything is always better than nothing.

As to asking for criticism, am I alone in deep down suspecting my major vault? While I'm sure my literary sins are many I think my biggest problem is probably being too waffly in updtes as I don't have the heart to give my work the damned hard editing it probably needs. So I never ask for writing critiques because I think I already know what they'll say. Criticism and comments on plot, politics, tech, howling mistakes, etc are of course always welcome

[Woody Man]

Any comment adds value, even a one liner to show someone is reading is better than a blank.

Yes longer and more involved comments speculating on plot or picking up on subtle clever ideas are great. But anything is always better than nothing.

Completely agree, comments are always nice to see, and I'm happy to have them whatever the content!