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Thread: Against all Odds: The British Empire in World War Two

  1. #521
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eams
    It might be the lack of sleep, but right I'm rather worried that you actually mean some of that Jingoistic piffle.
    Though I know that it can't be the case, since you've proven yourself intelligent enough to handle a keyboard (unless you have a well-trained ape to do it for you.)

    Now let's keep it civil boys.


    So anyway, it seems I missed something in your post El Pip. As the critical period will be in the late 1940s and early 1950s as previously said the British will employ something we call 'Leitkultur' in Germany ( never mind that a liberal politician was felled over suggesting it ), roughly translated as 'guiding culture'. In reality this will mean that a mix between local customs and "imported" British culture so to speak that will probably go long ways to band them together and to eliminate some of the frictions that are bound to arise. One of the main points hasn't been mentoined yet, and it ties in with that very close: Language and writing. I think that if English and the English alphabet are taught at schools along with the local equivalents it will elminate the poinz you mentoined.
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  2. #522
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald
    Whatever the AI does, the french loose. Life is like that.

    Why not an empire in the sun?

    Pax Britannica?
    Missed your post.

    But yes, it is a Pax Britannica of sorts, allthough Pax Imperia would be more accurate. The phrase 'Empire in the sun' was used by the Germans in WW1 and is therefore a no-no in the Empire.
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  3. #523
    Human Enewald's Avatar
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    A jingoistic empire ruled from london with english being the 'lingua franca' or something. So still something like 'one nation, one PM, one king/queen, one language above others?'

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekaddict
    Now let's keep it civil boys.
    Keeping it civil would have meant challenging Pippi to a duel.
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  5. #525
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald
    A jingoistic empire ruled from london with english being the 'lingua franca' or something. So still something like 'one nation, one PM, one king/queen, one language above others?'
    Not at all, the languages are equal as are all citizens, et all, but it is much easier to be always able to fins someone who speaks and writes English than always learn soemthing new, especially when you are coming from say India and want to go to British Somalialand or NZ. Only one PM though to govern the Empire. The Imperial Parliament however is made up from 50/50 Brits/colonials. Each colony has a set number of MPs, this is made to prevent total domination of Imperial policy by India.
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  6. #526
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Meaning that if you knew how the post-war world looks like ( I can safely say it is going to be incredibly messy ) then you'd understand it completely.
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  7. #527
    Human Enewald's Avatar
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    So 50 million brits rule 500 million colonials, yet it stays 50-50 in the parliament?

    Somaliland?

    Isn't that a part of italy?
    And a french superpower, haha.

  8. #528
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald
    So 50 million brits rule 500 million colonials, yet it stays 50-50 in the parliament?

    Somaliland?

    Isn't that a part of italy?
    And a french superpower, haha.
    No. It will be 550 Million subjects of the crown rule themselves. India would completely dominate it if it were proportionate representation. Also bear in mind that most, if not all of them will be in the Imperial Party, so they will still be the largest single power bloc in Parliament. An alternative to that would be to make the local parties to merge with either of the parties so that they elect the MPs just like in Britain, with the constituencies made proportionally larger to prevent Indian domination by numbers.

    IIRC British Somalialand was the bit close to French Somalialand, the bit around Dhibuti.
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  9. #529
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    The whole point is that parts of this will go in the next update, because this is what Winston will discuss with the Indian leaders. They represent the biggest group of the Natives and therefor need his personal attention, the smaller ones can be handled by Eden and the assembled worker bees.
    "That's right, Adolf. The British are coming." - The Eleventh Doctor
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  10. #530
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    For the moment I have decided to go with the following:

    1) Parliament gets enlarged to 750 Members
    2) Indian counties/constituencies will be proportionally larger to prevent Indian Domination of Imperial politics
    3) Local Parliaments can form their own parties
    4) If you want to join the Imperial Parliament jou have to go for one of the established parties or your party must accumulate a certain level of support throughout the Empire. The established Parties will recruit candidates in the various nations. These however must be locals if possible. ( I mean come on, Bermuda and some of the smaller territories....)
    5) exception to No. 4 will be India.
    6) I have already decided that the PM who replaces Blair will be a member of the INC, the first INC member to move into No 10.

    Except for 6) I am open for discussion.

    Defence is the next great hurdle.

    My proposition is: For now Colonial soldiers, NonComs and Officers serve in the regular British Army. ( This to explain the ridicolously big Armies I will have to build) This is done to provide an experienced cadre. After the war the nations will for their own Army Units and in the case of India also Air units. They will be under the command of the Imperial General Staff, and only in case of emergencies (natural disaster relief etc ) put under local jurisdiction, and that can be done without the consent of Parliament. They also become 'local' forces in case of 'Extreme National Emergencies' i.e. when the UK has been nuked to smithereems or the Command structure is completely destroyed for some other reason. Now for the Navy every subject from every nation who wishes to defend Britannia on the waves will have to join the Royal Navy. No Royal Indian Navy, no Royal Rhodesian Navy and so on. Same goes of course for the Air Force.
    Last edited by trekaddict; 23-08-2008 at 01:16.
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  11. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekaddict
    The French AI has been less than stellar so far, in fact it was downright abysmal, and only partially because of the ahistorical situation, so expect some serious France bashing. ( No offense AF, but the AI really played so damn crappy.)
    Bah. The British AI in my game apparently thinks that Hong-Kong needs a force of 30+ divisions, doing nothing except, probably, falling down cliffs when a new division elbows its way in the city. The US seem to have the same obsession with rapidly exhausting the natural resources of small islands.

  12. #532
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    This smells like Rome. First there is a senate, then you create local senates around the empire, they vote their own ministers and emperors, and then you have many big parliaments fighting each others and the empire is divided into many and then it is conqured by germans.

  13. #533
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald
    This smells like Rome. First there is a senate, then you create local senates around the empire, they vote their own ministers and emperors, and then you have many big parliaments fighting each others and the empire is divided into many and then it is conqured by germans.
    But unlike Rome the local Parliaments will only administer local matters like Healthcare, education and the likes. The big, important stuff like defence, foreign policy and so on will be handled by the Imperial Parliament.
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  14. #534
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantic Friend
    Bah. The British AI in my game apparently thinks that Hong-Kong needs a force of 30+ divisions, doing nothing except, probably, falling down cliffs when a new division elbows its way in the city. The US seem to have the same obsession with rapidly exhausting the natural resources of small islands.

    I missed yours.

    I will PM you why I hate the French AI so much.
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  15. #535
    Detective Lt., Police Squad Eams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantic Friend
    Bah. The British AI in my game apparently thinks that Hong-Kong needs a force of 30+ divisions, doing nothing except, probably, falling down cliffs when a new division elbows its way in the city. The US seem to have the same obsession with rapidly exhausting the natural resources of small islands.
    Clearly it's a plan to make the city's population primarily British before the treaty with China comes to an end.
    The small island problem can be fixed by removing the passages between islands, but I guess that you don't want to restart your game again
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  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eams
    Clearly it's a plan to make the city's population primarily British before the treaty with China comes to an end.
    The small island problem can be fixed by removing the passages between islands, but I guess that you don't want to restart your game again


    Btw Honkong will recive special consideration in the future of this AAR.

    Update coming right up.
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  17. #537
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    Chapter 33


    HMS Warspite off St. Georges Island, 1963



    November 30th, 1938

    Barge en route to HMS Warspite, anchored off St. Georges Island, Bermuda

    As it turned out Ghandi was not the only one invited to see the PM in this semi-formal environment. The whole leadership of the INC was invited, along with that of the Muslim League. The men didn't discuss the matter with each other, all except maybe Ghandi were still trying to comprehend what they had come here to do. Each were dealing with their nervousness in their own way while the barge sped towards the Battleship anchored off the coast. Jinnah, the leader of the Muslim faction of the INC was chain smoking like always, Pathel was wiping backwards and forward on his feet and Neru simply looked at Ghandi anxiously, trying to decipher what Ghandi had talked with McIntosh about. Ghandi on the other hand was arranging some questions he wanted to ask the Prime Minsiter, that he had not gotten to ask McIntosh in time. Unsurprisingly Jinnah broke the relative silence. “What could he want from us? What is so important that it can't wait until tomorrow?” Ghandi was answering first. “That I cannot tell you, as I do not know, but I believe that it it important enough. Let me tell you now, that in my opinion the British are more than sincere about all this, in fact it could be said that they are almost desperate for us to accept.” He paused and Jinnah spoke up. “Good, because this means we can get them to give us full...” it would never be known what he had meant, because the barge was reaching the imposing hull of Warspite.

    The surprises of the day did not stop there. Up aboard ship they were met by the Prime Minister and lead into the flag cabin. Seated around the table the native leaders of what the Imperialists in Britain saw as their crown jewel awaited whatever the British Prime Minister would present them. Refreshments were taken and everyone waited for Churchill to return from the side cabin. When he did so he wasted no time on greeting them again. “Gentlemen, what we are about to discuss will be the cornerstone of the plan. If we fail to achieve a satisfactory solution the whole thing is dead before it starts.” Jinnah again spoke first. “And what might that be Mr. Churchill?” “India includes the largest single group of his Majesties subjects.” Churchill desperately tried to formulate the coming as diplomatic as possible. “Gentlemen, the problem is that if we enact the same electoral System like on the British Isles in India India will completely dominate Imperial politics. For the other former Colonies it would be exchanging one overlord for another and I could never sell that to the population in the United Kingdom.” He had chosen the blunt approach, as he could not think of any way to soften the blow. Before however the INC leaders could rush out of the cabin in horror and annoyance he continued. “However I have, working together with the Home Secretary Mr. Morrison we have developed certain scenarios. Keep in mind that they are open to discussion, because that is why you..why we are here. A workable, long-term solution is needed.” The INC leaders were stunned again. They had not expected Churchill to be so blunt about the this particular problem and some had secretly hoped that the British would overlook it, but it was obviously not to be.

    This time it was Nehru who spoke first. “And what are these scenarios?” Churchill answered by handing the leaders each an envelope. “These envelopes contain detailed briefing materials, but I will explain the basics now so that you can go back to your delegation. You do not have to decide which to accept now, and as I said previously these are all open for discussion. I can also understand if there needs to be a plebiscite in India and..” Nehru interrupted by tentatively raising his hand. The whole idea of talking with the British Prime Minister as an equal still slightly unnerved him. “Sir, the INC has discussed this on the assembly a few days back when we decided to accept your invitation to come here. We are allowed to negotiate on all terms. The only problem with deciding here might be that the Congress does not ratify it, but I believe that it is in the best interest of all of us to achieve a solution that will satisfy the people at home.” Churchill nodded and took a sip from the glass of iced water that stood in front of him. He leaned back in his chair and sighed deeply. This was the hardest part. If he failed to negotiate a compromise this very evening the issue of the Empire Plan was very much in doubt, and both the Empire and he himself did not have time for drawn out negotiations that achieved half-cooked agreements, not in light of the lit fuses in both Europe and Asia.

    Shifting his attention back to the men in the room he said: “All of these scenarios include universal suffrage, which is a cornerstone of all proposals submitted to all Colonies, so much must be clear.” He paused again and continued after quickly consulting his notes. “First of all the Imperialist parliament would have direct control over defence, foreign policy and and Imperial economy. The local parliaments would handle foreign trade in conjunction with the trade committee of the Imperial Parliament, Healthcare, education and so on. The first scenario about the make-up of the Imperial parliament would be: Local Parliaments elected by the people. These Parliaments select dignitaries that are dispatched to the Imperial Parliament in London. The Imperial Parliament is made up of 50% British and 50% Colonial Mps and the Colonial Mps would be put together to form an Imperial Party. In this the the Imperial Party would form the single biggest power-bloc. The downside is that the whole system is sluggish, because” he made a fist with his right hand and extended one finger “the Imperial Party would be made up of too many individual political directions and convictions” another finger went up “the aforementioned downside would therefore make it impossible to reach any quick decisions” the third finger went up “both the British and the Imperial Mps would then claim in their home nations that the others would deliberately block the process and that would create political divisions within the Empire.” Churchill looked around and to his relief he saw agreement on most faces, the most on the face of Ghandi who was also the first to speak again. “And that, Prime Minister would then be against the intention of the inventor.” “Indeed, Mr Ghandi. Now, the second proposal is most likely much harder to sell to the INC but will, at least in my opinion give us better long-term political stability. In this the British electoral system as we have it in the United Kingdom is extended across the British Empire.”

    Again Ghandi was the first to voice his concerns. Churchill got the distinct feeling that Ghandi was as big a proponent of the plan as he himself. Winston made a mental note to recommend to Eden that McIntosh should be promoted, and high at that. The man whom he had expected to be the hardest nut to crack was now working with him, actively helping him push things along. “I can see your concerns Prime Minister, but you must understand ours. We cannot go back to India, or even to our delegation for that matter without having secured adequate political representation for the peoples of India in this new Empire.” Noises of agreement came from the others. Winston raised his hand and said: “Rest assured Gentlemen, what we have in mind will do a lot. Let me explain.” With that Churchill explained the second scenario to the Indians. It all boiled down to five points. “1) Parliament will be enlarged to 750 Members. 2) Imperial counties and constituencies will be proportionally larger to prevent any domination of Imperial politics by one particular group. 3) Local Parliaments can form their own parties. 4) If you want to join the Imperial Parliament you have to go for one of the established parties or your party must accumulate a certain level of support throughout the Empire. The established Parties will recruit candidates in the various nations. These however must be locals if possible. 5) exception to No. 4 will be India. This would mean that the INC will be the only party that can nominate candidates for the first Imperial election without gathering enough votes throughout the Empire. However every Imperial Party can put itself on the list once a certain percentage of the population vote for it. These will be guaranteed observer seats without voting rights.” The INC heads were stunned. This was a far more equal system than they had expected in their wildest dreams. Churchill grinned and said: “I do not expect you to decide right away, but I would be glad I could tell his Majesty when he arrives that we have managed an agreement with the largest single group of subjects of the Crown.”


    [Game effects: Organizing the first Imperial election will be a b*tch, and that is why Winston's plan is to hold it in ten years time to give the parties time to form a voter base and some infrastructure.]
    Last edited by trekaddict; 23-08-2008 at 15:17.
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  18. #538
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    Oooh, but what does a normal british voter think of giving that much power to africans and indians?

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    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald
    Oooh, but what does a normal british voter think of giving that much power to africans and indians?
    A few weeks back No 10 released the Empire Report. It is essentially an assmebly of facts, sometimes grossly overblown, sometimes understated with the effect of shocking the voters so much that they accept everything that is presented to them in. Besides, who doesn't like the idea of living in a global country that is ruling the waves?

    In reality a good mix of retorics ( "the Empire must band together" ) and the Imperial Decrees issued by the King have silenced the most dissent. Besides the transfer of power in the various colonies will be a deliberately slow process, stretching over the next ten to fifteen years.
    "That's right, Adolf. The British are coming." - The Eleventh Doctor
    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." - Carl Schurz
    Against all Odds: The British Empire in World War Two (ongoing) Last updated 09/22/14 Index - Index 2 - Index 3 - Knowledgebase -
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    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Also this is probably the only moment where this plan would actually work, because nothing unites people more than a common threat, and there's loads of that on the horizon. If the Empire survives this then a lot of that Racism and Xenophobia will be gone.
    "That's right, Adolf. The British are coming." - The Eleventh Doctor
    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." - Carl Schurz
    Against all Odds: The British Empire in World War Two (ongoing) Last updated 09/22/14 Index - Index 2 - Index 3 - Knowledgebase -
    Inkwell Entry Visit the Dictionary!

    Possibly the world's most British German as awarded by El Pip here.

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