Against all Odds: The British Empire in World War Two

[Agent Larkin]

The one great advantage of a hollywood in Britain.

No HUAC.

[trekaddict]

El Pip Glad to have you back anyway.

Ireland is a special Case, and I dare say that a lot of people probably would have once compared it to the Middle East considering the hatred and depth of feeling...

As for KG-200, they will have their moment of glory, rest assured. It's only a matter of me selecting the most opportune moment that will have the most impact.

Kurt_Steiner Minus the dodgy interpretation of history.

El Pip The Duke...hmmm...I can't tell really. He's one of those where you have to properly research their background before making a desicion. Unlike Patton where it was easy to have him be a loyalist Officer or Chaplin who was an expatriate Brit to begin with. Commie Westerns sound like lots of fun though.

Agent Larkin Oh yes. There will of course be some...odd behaviour when the industry once more runs ahead of the times but much less bad than in America, and since there isn't going to be a Red Scare anywhere near like what the US experienced in the 1950s..

[Agent Larkin]

Commie John Wayne:

"Howdy, Loyal member of our glorious people's struggle against the oppressive bonds of the Capitalist bourgeoisie."

Although Commie John Wayne would make the film "Green Berets" a whole lot more interesting. (Instead of just being a Western in Vietnam)

[c0d5579]

Why wouldn't John Wayne simply move north and make westerns in Canada? Not like they're short on western stories of their own. Sure, there aren't massive cattle drives, but the same frontier-spirit kinds of stories still get made. Hell, he could still make "North to Alaska" in Vancouver...

[trekaddict]

The problem is, I extracted already a lot of famous people from America, and I've been accused of favouring those that I like. I'm trying not to do that too often since.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Kurt_Steiner Minus the dodgy interpretation of history.

No U-571, which, for starters, is bloody good enough for me.

[trekaddict]

U-571 isn't a bad film in itself, but the constant facepalm at the historical 'facts' makes it rather hard to watch.

[Kurt_Steiner]

U-571 isn't a bad film in itself, but the constant facepalm at the historical 'facts' makes it rather hard to watch.

No, it's not too bad, and one can forget about the historical war crime when Harvey Keitel and Thomas Kretschmann appear on the screen. But from time to time is so utterly crap that looks like some propaganda films of the Cold War or even worse.

It's a film that makes good the "Green Berets" and the Duke's hairpiece

[ViperhawkZ]

America Wins the War!

[matlef]

oh i want to see mossies ( if i'm right about which year it is in AAO I think I know what you mean with "special" )
I have not seen "The Great Dictators" or any of Chaplins movies if i remember correctly, maybe i should do something about that

[stevep]

trekaddict

Interesting. Was the film made in America, in the post civil-war period, or in Britain/Canada after Chaplin and others fled the new communist state? I'm not sure it would have gone down well in America after the communist take-over.

Since UA relocated to Britain would it be correct to call Niven the 1st British member rather than Chaplin who presumably regained his British citizenship.

While I hope that a British dominated film industry would have some more respect for history than the Americans OTL would they actually avoid a Red scare period after the war? After all their just fought a long and bloody war with the Soviet Union, which is still in existence and their main threat is the Red America.

With the Mossies I was initially thinking about the strike at the Gestapo HQ in the Netherlands but you say it's something new. Have to see what develops.

Steve

[stevep]

oh i want to see mossies ( if i'm right about which year it is in AAO I think I know what you mean with "special" )
I have not seen "The Great Dictators" or any of Chaplins movies if i remember correctly, maybe i should do something about that

matlef

It's a great film but just so you don't get confused the OTL version is 'The Great Dictator', singular. He's mocking Hitler and his views. TTL with the Soviets in the openly evil camp as well the film presumably mocks both of them. [With I think a cameo from Bennie the Moose - have a feeling he makes a brief appearance in the OTL version but a long while since I read it.]

Chaplin mocks Hitler and his views and in that it's highly successful but when he learnt the full horrors of what the Nazis got up to after the war he felt distinctly guilty that he had made a comedy about them, even if at their expense. I think he was wrong there before he does prick the arrogance and pomposity of the dictators but it's an understandable reaction on his part.

Steve

[trekaddict]

trekaddict

Interesting. Was the film made in America, in the post civil-war period, or in Britain/Canada after Chaplin and others fled the new communist state? I'm not sure it would have gone down well in America after the communist take-over.

Since UA relocated to Britain would it be correct to call Niven the 1st British member rather than Chaplin who presumably regained his British citizenship.

While I hope that a British dominated film industry would have some more respect for history than the Americans OTL would they actually avoid a Red scare period after the war? After all their just fought a long and bloody war with the Soviet Union, which is still in existence and their main threat is the Red America.

With the Mossies I was initially thinking about the strike at the Gestapo HQ in the Netherlands but you say it's something new. Have to see what develops.

Steve

The Film was made in 1940/41, in Britain. In fact it is banned in the UAPR because a lot of the mockery can easily be applied to them.

Niven is the first member they recruited in Britain, because Chaplin did indeed regain his citizenship.

The lack of a Red Scare is explained by a few factors: The boogieman is on the other side of the Atlantic with the World's most powerful Navy inbetween, secondly, OTL everyone saw McCarthy's actions as bad form, in fact when McCarthy criticised Attlee's security precautions within the Labour Party it was pointed out that everyone in it was fighting against Communism since the 1920s and that a young Upstart like McC better not tell other people how to do their work. Also the Government at least is aware that the Soviet Networks within the UK have been utterly and totally destroyed with the demise of the Camebridge Five and...certain events around the end of the war. Philby, McLean and the others did the rope dance a long time ago.

Thirdly, what Espionage there is (and there will be some) is going to be investigated behind closed doors as much as possible lest the Civilian population be unduly alarmed. IMO part of the Red Scare in the US was caused by Hoover and his habit of loud and very very public prosecution of suspected and confirmed Soviet Spies. If that doesn't happen or happens away from the public eye then a Red Scare anything like what we know from OTL isn't going to happen.

[Ehran]

If so expect a great deal more films to feature dramatic rain rather than bright vistas of sunshine. Ohh and John Wayne is either (1) making Communist Westerns (which will be hilarious) or (2) struggling to be a movie cowboy in the Welsh valleys not the Mojave Desert.

Personally I'm rooting for (1) complete with people rounding up a collective instead of a posse, people declaring themselves to be 'The new peoples commissar for justice' instead of sheriff and the use of ushanka hats not stetsons.

doubt the british public has any compelling interest in cowboy movies. i'd expect a lot more movies about hornblower sharpe et al. the thin red line and the khyber pass probably resonate more with the british than cowboy movies would. guess you could haul off to australia or alberta if you needed the scenery to do a cowboy movie. remember reading that the last big cowboy movie had to be shot in alberta because the location people couldn't find anyplace in the usa that had those great vistas with no roads/fences.

[stevep]

doubt the british public has any compelling interest in cowboy movies. i'd expect a lot more movies about hornblower sharpe et al. the thin red line and the khyber pass probably resonate more with the british than cowboy movies would. guess you could haul off to australia or alberta if you needed the scenery to do a cowboy movie. remember reading that the last big cowboy movie had to be shot in alberta because the location people couldn't find anyplace in the usa that had those great vistas with no roads/fences.

Guys

Possibly you might have a few about the settlement of eastern Canada with a lot involving Mounties as the central figures. Also possibly a few subtle swipes at the fact the Canadian settlement was largely peaceful compared to the widespread massacres south of the 49th. Perhaps some featuring characters like Geronimo and Tecumseh as tragic heroes.

Otherwise as you say likely to be very little interest in westerns. Probably some about British colonial development in Africa and India, with a steady change in attitude to be less about the glory of the empire and more about what happens to ordinary people. Possibly something of a cultural war with various groups/producers displaying different stances. Could be interesting to see what films Bollywood [or whatever it's called in TTL] produce in this world.

Steve

[stevep]

The Film was made in 1940/41, in Britain. In fact it is banned in the UAPR because a lot of the mockery can easily be applied to them.

Niven is the first member they recruited in Britain, because Chaplin did indeed regain his citizenship.

The lack of a Red Scare is explained by a few factors: The boogieman is on the other side of the Atlantic with the World's most powerful Navy inbetween, secondly, OTL everyone saw McCarthy's actions as bad form, in fact when McCarthy criticised Attlee's security precautions within the Labour Party it was pointed out that everyone in it was fighting against Communism since the 1920s and that a young Upstart like McC better not tell other people how to do their work. Also the Government at least is aware that the Soviet Networks within the UK have been utterly and totally destroyed with the demise of the Camebridge Five and...certain events around the end of the war. Philby, McLean and the others did the rope dance a long time ago.

Thirdly, what Espionage there is (and there will be some) is going to be investigated behind closed doors as much as possible lest the Civilian population be unduly alarmed. IMO part of the Red Scare in the US was caused by Hoover and his habit of loud and very very public prosecution of suspected and confirmed Soviet Spies. If that doesn't happen or happens away from the public eye then a Red Scare anything like what we know from OTL isn't going to happen.

trekaddict

To be honest, while I see the point about most people in Britain keeping things more low profile, I could see some trying to play a McCathy type role. Also point 1 is exactly as OTL except that in TTL the enemy has a much more powerful fleet [I would expect], has a border with a very important part of the imperial federation and also there is another continental sized communist empire not to far away to the east. Although I believe that is going to be diminished somewhat compared to OTL.

Therefore it's only the 3rd point that I could see being unlikely in our case so I would still expect a good bit of concern.

I was expecting the Chaplin film would be far from welcome in the Amercian Soviet. [Although when technology starts making easily viewable and hideable films available I could see it becoming popular with some. Which makes me think, if Norman Wisdom makes his films will America replace Albania as a popular foreign market].

Steve

[trekaddict]

Judging from what I read in my copy of Christopher Andrew's History of MI5 (a translated copy of which was given to me for Christmas last year) Five was trying to keep itself very, very, very low profile during and after the war. The Cambridge Five didn't help this, but with no such spectacular blunders I could see Five and the work they do being more successful at staying out of the limelight more than OTL.


EDIT: You must also remember that this is a Britain that has an almost Victorian level of self-confidence. They won the war, the Empire endured and is closer and more powerful than ever before and Britannia quite literally rules the waves.

[Lord Strange]

A better universe. *dreams*

[trekaddict]

A better universe. *dreams*

Indeed!

[Lord Strange]

I just look forward to the British Space Program.