I really want to discuss this with my ReadAARs because I want a somewhat plausible solution to this, as it is supposed to last at least another 200 years. 
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Replace the charka with the Union Jack in the centre?trekaddict said:
HoI3? Yippee!
Eams said:
Dunno.. I made one and it looked too British to me.
My idea:
Maybe the bit in the upper right corner should be white? I adapted this from a pic of the NZ flag.
White would probably work best. Now please give us the update, the flag can be replaced if someone comes up with a better one.
Eams said:
Still working on it.
I will endevaour to have it posted tonight though.
trekaddict said:Dunno.. I made one and it looked too British to me.
My idea:
Maybe the bit in the upper right corner should be white? I adapted this from a pic of the NZ flag.
what about the Union Jack with the spinning wheel across the center?
Bafflegab said:
I considered that but that again would have been too British and not Indian enough. You will see the current flag when I post the update.
Bafflegab said:for the sake of this AAR, is it possible to be too British?
:rofl: :rofl:
Well, I do want to build a semi-realistic world for my TTL self to live in.
It is supposed to be as realistic as the game and my own 'needs' for Britishness allow. To do that I will have to compromise, and that is also why you won't see massive SHBB stacks flying the white Ensign of the Royal Navy.
Instead you trust the Indian Navy to do just that?trekaddict said:To do that I will have to compromise, and that is also why you won't see massive SHBB stacks flying the white Ensign of the Royal Navy.
Speaking of military matters, will you supplement India's rather scarce selection of leaders with Pakistan's, or is the Indian Army primarily to stay in India or garrison duty?
Don't ask me why the conference is held on Bermuda because I have no idea myself. It just popped into my head and stuck there.
November 30th, 1938
Bermuda Islands
While the British PM would have most certainly the biggest entrance, aside from the King of course, he was also one of the last to arrive. The last news had put Warspite at least half a day away, and until the Battleship arrived. The leaders of the Dominions and the 'natives' from the various colonies were already there and many used the chance to talk, but as of yet only in their own group. Frankly the meager details that had been leaked so far were enough to provoke serious discussions between those receptive to the idea and those who wanted to maintain the Status Quo, respectively led by Canada and the INC on one and South Africa on the other. Most however were undecided, most prominently Australia and New Zealand. The dignitaries had assembled on Saint George's Island, and were awaiting Warspite to enter the area so that the conference could begin. The advance party sent by Whitehall some days ago had been faced with serious problems. Some dignitaries refused to sleep under the same roof as others, some needed special food for religious reasons and some where simply 'blithering Idiots' and 'religious zealots' as the last communique to London had said. Strangely enough no one had died yet and and no violence had broken out. The dignitaries were situated in ad-hoc embassies spread all over the Islands, in houses either owned by the Navy or by private citizens. For example the Indian National Congress had its 'Embassy' in one of the many hotels on the Islands that had fallen into disuse after the tourists from the United States had stopped coming.
They had even managed to come up with a flag for the Dominion of India, signalling with this that they were at least willing to talk although everyone doubted that it would be that easy. The INC was represented by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Mohammed Ali Jinnah and Mahatma Gandhi. The last of which had arrived a week ago and could be seen walking along the shoreline every morning. The Press was not represented aside from a few 'domestic' reporters that had hurriedly made deals with Fleet Street and Ghandi had said in one of his many interviews that he was looking forward to talk matters with the Prime Minister with whom he shared such a colourful history. What the Prime Minister said to this was not known, as he was still underway and yet already late. Warspite had developed trouble with her rudder and could make only 15 knots at present and was not expected until later that day. The other great scarce were infiltrated American agents trying to assassinate the assembled leaders. To prevent this the ships of the RN America station were constantly patrolling the waters around the Islands, reinforced by ships from the Royal Canadian Navy. The RAF Bermuda flight had it's three ageing Gloster Gladiators in the air too, on the lookout for a threat that no one expected but everyone feared. This would only get bigger when the King arrived, but no one knew when he would arrive. King George V had publicly said that he would only grace the conference with his presence when some sort of agreement had been reached.
Currently Ghandi was talking with Churchill's chief of Office who had flown here yesterday. “Tell me Mr. McIntosh, how sincere is this proposal? Many people in India have high hopes in it and the troubles we are currently experiencing in Calcutta and Karachi need to be resolved in some way.” “Mahatma,” McIntosh said, paying Ghandi every respect as per the PM's orders, “the Prime Minister and the King are throwing all their political weight behind it. The British population in the United Kingdom agrees on the whole, but there are dissenting voices. It is in everyone's best interest to achieve a lasting agreement. It is not our intention to oppress your people, we simply want that everyone can enjoy the benefits that the British Empire brings with itself.” McIntosh paused and decided that if he was to win this man over he needed to be completely truthful. “ Mahatma, if you were in our position and would see your country slowly break apart, would you not be ready to make large concessions to prevent it from doing so?” He paused again. “Britain might seem to be an overlord to many of your countrymen, but it is an overlord standing on pillars made of rubber. The Great War, the economic troubles...and a lot more. To make the long story short we estimate that the Empire would fall apart within the next two decades.” Ghandi hid his surprise well. 'Is it THAT bad?' he thought. It certainly explained a lot. The speed with which the British had organized this conference, the apparent smoothness with which the idea had gone through the Houses of Parliament, the scope of the reforms and concessions the British were proposing. “You must understand Mr. McIntosh, there are many in India who say that this whole proposal is just empty talk and that your real aim is to relabel the old institutions with a new name. Rest assured you will have my support. I still admire Britain in many ways, and believe that a British Empire made up of not Colonists and natives but equal subjects of the crown by far outweighs the disadvantages, but I too have political ends to meet.” McIntosh had heard that the turmoil in India was costing lives by the hour, and that the INC itself was deeply divided. He had seen is as a very good sign that the Indian delegation had shown up at all, only to be sobered by the fact that the representatives of the various religions had never stopped arguing the whole way from the small Airbase to their headquarters. Ghandi stopped to pick up a few salt crystals from the edge of the waterfront.
“During the Salt March I was asked by a reporter what a compromise over the Indian question would look like. I couldn't answer. Back then nobody could imagine that you British would humble yourselves in this way, and now here we are.” McIntosh tried to hide a melancholic grin but failed. “Nobody could. When the revised, watered down Imperial Report was released it was like the country stood still. Nobody could or wanted to believe it. There will always be hardline idiots that would prefer to keep the status quo, but most are behind the Prime Minister.” Inwardly he laughed. It had been a masterstroke to make it look like the intiative had been started by the King, as it had ensured that the opposition to it had never been too vocal and too violent. The fact that it had been Winston and not the king who had kicked things off would forever remain a secret. If it was to leak now everything that had been accomplished so far would be jeopardized, and it was little enough to begin with. Ghandi was the first to speak again. “But what about...the outsiders?” he said, referring to the most vocal opponents. “That you must speak with the Prime Minister about, but I think we can safely say that the British Government will throw all its political weight in making it work. We will also be greatly assisted by Canada and maybe Australia too.” Ghandi nodded. “Forgive me my rudeness, Mr. McIntosh, but this is a question that troubles our delegation and our party greatly. What stops you from backing out on your promises once the situation is stabilized?” “Again something that you and your compatriots should rather talk with the Prime Minister and maybe even the King about, but I have orders to tell you and I quote: 'if we do the whole bloody mess starts again in another 30 years and I bloody damn well won't be around to fix it.' end quote.” Ghandi laughed heartily at that. “That does indeed sound like Mr. Churchill.”
Before they could talk any further they could hear the siren of a ship. They looked seawards and were rewarded the majestic sight of HMS Warspite coming out of the evening gloom, highlighted by the setting sun in the background.* An aide promptly came running. “Mr. Ghandi, the Prime Minister is asking if you were willing to come aboard Warspite and have a talk with him before he disembarks.” Ghandi glanced at the smiling McIntosh and replied: “Tell Mr. Churchill that I will gladly follow his invitation. After that would you be so kind and tell the Indian delegation where I have gone?” “Yes, Sir.” Ghandi addressed McIntosh once more before leaving. “Mr. McIntosh, I would be delighted if we could resume this some other time.” “I would be delighted.”
[Game Effects: None. Before anyone asks: When I estimated the travel time from the UK to Bermuda I used the game as a reference. Up next: Ghandi visits Warspite]
*How I wish I had a picture of that moment.
Chapter 32
The improvised flag of the Dominion of India
The improvised flag of the Dominion of India
November 30th, 1938
Bermuda Islands
While the British PM would have most certainly the biggest entrance, aside from the King of course, he was also one of the last to arrive. The last news had put Warspite at least half a day away, and until the Battleship arrived. The leaders of the Dominions and the 'natives' from the various colonies were already there and many used the chance to talk, but as of yet only in their own group. Frankly the meager details that had been leaked so far were enough to provoke serious discussions between those receptive to the idea and those who wanted to maintain the Status Quo, respectively led by Canada and the INC on one and South Africa on the other. Most however were undecided, most prominently Australia and New Zealand. The dignitaries had assembled on Saint George's Island, and were awaiting Warspite to enter the area so that the conference could begin. The advance party sent by Whitehall some days ago had been faced with serious problems. Some dignitaries refused to sleep under the same roof as others, some needed special food for religious reasons and some where simply 'blithering Idiots' and 'religious zealots' as the last communique to London had said. Strangely enough no one had died yet and and no violence had broken out. The dignitaries were situated in ad-hoc embassies spread all over the Islands, in houses either owned by the Navy or by private citizens. For example the Indian National Congress had its 'Embassy' in one of the many hotels on the Islands that had fallen into disuse after the tourists from the United States had stopped coming.
They had even managed to come up with a flag for the Dominion of India, signalling with this that they were at least willing to talk although everyone doubted that it would be that easy. The INC was represented by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Mohammed Ali Jinnah and Mahatma Gandhi. The last of which had arrived a week ago and could be seen walking along the shoreline every morning. The Press was not represented aside from a few 'domestic' reporters that had hurriedly made deals with Fleet Street and Ghandi had said in one of his many interviews that he was looking forward to talk matters with the Prime Minister with whom he shared such a colourful history. What the Prime Minister said to this was not known, as he was still underway and yet already late. Warspite had developed trouble with her rudder and could make only 15 knots at present and was not expected until later that day. The other great scarce were infiltrated American agents trying to assassinate the assembled leaders. To prevent this the ships of the RN America station were constantly patrolling the waters around the Islands, reinforced by ships from the Royal Canadian Navy. The RAF Bermuda flight had it's three ageing Gloster Gladiators in the air too, on the lookout for a threat that no one expected but everyone feared. This would only get bigger when the King arrived, but no one knew when he would arrive. King George V had publicly said that he would only grace the conference with his presence when some sort of agreement had been reached.
Currently Ghandi was talking with Churchill's chief of Office who had flown here yesterday. “Tell me Mr. McIntosh, how sincere is this proposal? Many people in India have high hopes in it and the troubles we are currently experiencing in Calcutta and Karachi need to be resolved in some way.” “Mahatma,” McIntosh said, paying Ghandi every respect as per the PM's orders, “the Prime Minister and the King are throwing all their political weight behind it. The British population in the United Kingdom agrees on the whole, but there are dissenting voices. It is in everyone's best interest to achieve a lasting agreement. It is not our intention to oppress your people, we simply want that everyone can enjoy the benefits that the British Empire brings with itself.” McIntosh paused and decided that if he was to win this man over he needed to be completely truthful. “ Mahatma, if you were in our position and would see your country slowly break apart, would you not be ready to make large concessions to prevent it from doing so?” He paused again. “Britain might seem to be an overlord to many of your countrymen, but it is an overlord standing on pillars made of rubber. The Great War, the economic troubles...and a lot more. To make the long story short we estimate that the Empire would fall apart within the next two decades.” Ghandi hid his surprise well. 'Is it THAT bad?' he thought. It certainly explained a lot. The speed with which the British had organized this conference, the apparent smoothness with which the idea had gone through the Houses of Parliament, the scope of the reforms and concessions the British were proposing. “You must understand Mr. McIntosh, there are many in India who say that this whole proposal is just empty talk and that your real aim is to relabel the old institutions with a new name. Rest assured you will have my support. I still admire Britain in many ways, and believe that a British Empire made up of not Colonists and natives but equal subjects of the crown by far outweighs the disadvantages, but I too have political ends to meet.” McIntosh had heard that the turmoil in India was costing lives by the hour, and that the INC itself was deeply divided. He had seen is as a very good sign that the Indian delegation had shown up at all, only to be sobered by the fact that the representatives of the various religions had never stopped arguing the whole way from the small Airbase to their headquarters. Ghandi stopped to pick up a few salt crystals from the edge of the waterfront.
“During the Salt March I was asked by a reporter what a compromise over the Indian question would look like. I couldn't answer. Back then nobody could imagine that you British would humble yourselves in this way, and now here we are.” McIntosh tried to hide a melancholic grin but failed. “Nobody could. When the revised, watered down Imperial Report was released it was like the country stood still. Nobody could or wanted to believe it. There will always be hardline idiots that would prefer to keep the status quo, but most are behind the Prime Minister.” Inwardly he laughed. It had been a masterstroke to make it look like the intiative had been started by the King, as it had ensured that the opposition to it had never been too vocal and too violent. The fact that it had been Winston and not the king who had kicked things off would forever remain a secret. If it was to leak now everything that had been accomplished so far would be jeopardized, and it was little enough to begin with. Ghandi was the first to speak again. “But what about...the outsiders?” he said, referring to the most vocal opponents. “That you must speak with the Prime Minister about, but I think we can safely say that the British Government will throw all its political weight in making it work. We will also be greatly assisted by Canada and maybe Australia too.” Ghandi nodded. “Forgive me my rudeness, Mr. McIntosh, but this is a question that troubles our delegation and our party greatly. What stops you from backing out on your promises once the situation is stabilized?” “Again something that you and your compatriots should rather talk with the Prime Minister and maybe even the King about, but I have orders to tell you and I quote: 'if we do the whole bloody mess starts again in another 30 years and I bloody damn well won't be around to fix it.' end quote.” Ghandi laughed heartily at that. “That does indeed sound like Mr. Churchill.”
Before they could talk any further they could hear the siren of a ship. They looked seawards and were rewarded the majestic sight of HMS Warspite coming out of the evening gloom, highlighted by the setting sun in the background.* An aide promptly came running. “Mr. Ghandi, the Prime Minister is asking if you were willing to come aboard Warspite and have a talk with him before he disembarks.” Ghandi glanced at the smiling McIntosh and replied: “Tell Mr. Churchill that I will gladly follow his invitation. After that would you be so kind and tell the Indian delegation where I have gone?” “Yes, Sir.” Ghandi addressed McIntosh once more before leaving. “Mr. McIntosh, I would be delighted if we could resume this some other time.” “I would be delighted.”
[Game Effects: None. Before anyone asks: When I estimated the travel time from the UK to Bermuda I used the game as a reference. Up next: Ghandi visits Warspite]
*How I wish I had a picture of that moment.
Eams :rofl:
I won't liberate any countries. The nations will one day raise their own armies, but they will still be part of the country, which will officially be called the British Empire from the moment the plan is fully implemented. That however is beyond the scope of this AAR. My estimate is that it will happen around 1950 or so. So if it works out Britain will have counties all over the world. I was planning to detail the desired political situation later, but my idea is that the various nations elect their representatives and local governements directly. THe representatives will then go to London and represent their home nations in Parliament. The 'Imperial Party' will be in size of the faction and rights completely equal to the others. I considered a system in which the numbers would decide how many representatives could be sent, but the Indians would have dominated Parliament with ease so I discarded that. The system is not perfect and will most likely see some sort of reform in the 1980s, but I never said I was building a uthopia, sorry.
I won't liberate any countries. The nations will one day raise their own armies, but they will still be part of the country, which will officially be called the British Empire from the moment the plan is fully implemented. That however is beyond the scope of this AAR. My estimate is that it will happen around 1950 or so. So if it works out Britain will have counties all over the world. I was planning to detail the desired political situation later, but my idea is that the various nations elect their representatives and local governements directly. THe representatives will then go to London and represent their home nations in Parliament. The 'Imperial Party' will be in size of the faction and rights completely equal to the others. I considered a system in which the numbers would decide how many representatives could be sent, but the Indians would have dominated Parliament with ease so I discarded that. The system is not perfect and will most likely see some sort of reform in the 1980s, but I never said I was building a uthopia, sorry.
So what kind of formula would you use to have India and Britain sit together in a parliament??
Leviathan07 said:So what kind of formula would you use to have India and Britain sit together in a parliament??
50% British MPs 50% MPs from the former colonies. As I said intentionally not a perfect system and one that will see drastic reforms in the latter half of the century.
The house of Commons will need some serious remoddeling, but Parliament will still convene in that building.
Interesting premise for a parliamentary system. It will be hard to sell the idea to some of the colonies that they are to be second amongst equals in an Empire Parliament. I'd like to see those debates hashed out later, even if it is beyond the scope of this AAR... Maybe it'll be a great way to continue on.
I expect the most resistance will come from South Africa, Singapoure and maybe Rhodesia. I will try to put some of these discussions in the AAR though.
If you want to sort out South Africa just have London enforce universal suffrage for the 'Imperial Parliament' elections, not a chance in hell the black majority will vote for any Boer party. While it might make the resistance even worse in the short term, it's a medium/long term fix and, more importantly, a change that has to happen at some point.trekaddict said:
A similar system would work in Rhodesia I'd imagine, but as I'm not sure why you think Singapore would be so against it I can't help there (not an area I'm strong on I confess)
One major benefit of this plan is that it makes democracy a gift from London not something won in a war of independence, improves Imperial relations among the majority and prevents a Zimbabwe type situation. Very hard to say "The evil British oppressed us by giving us the vote!' with a straight face, it's not really a very good rallying call.
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You know El Pip, you just fixed the last major issues I myself had with the plan. Thank you very much dear Sir.
As for Singapore: I'm not too strong there either, but I knwo that they had probably the most pronounced class system in the Empire.
EDIT: I could really see London going: "Either you accept or you leave the Empire and then you can see how you defend yourself against the Japanese/Germans/Americans/French.
As for Singapore: I'm not too strong there either, but I knwo that they had probably the most pronounced class system in the Empire.
EDIT: I could really see London going: "Either you accept or you leave the Empire and then you can see how you defend yourself against the Japanese/Germans/Americans/French.
Not to mention that universal suffrage throughout the Empire will make the Conservatives look like the good guys, ensuring a long reign which might come to an abrupt halt if they don't manage to raise the standard of living in the African and Asian parts of the Empire.
A further advantage is that those few extra hundred million voters might just serve as a catalyst to reform the British electoral system.
Then there's the question of what Enoch Powell will make of your United Kingdom, not to mention the Scottish separatists.
A further advantage is that those few extra hundred million voters might just serve as a catalyst to reform the British electoral system.
Then there's the question of what Enoch Powell will make of your United Kingdom, not to mention the Scottish separatists.