Against all Odds: The British Empire in World War Two

[Gigalocus]

Thats an interesting refit .... Anymore designs for refit British ships? That one looks very nice, if abit 'odd'

[gaiasabre11]

Come to think about it, does your Lion has any vertical launch systems for missiles? And are the visible missile launchers using the Sea Cat missiles?

[El Pip]

And are the visible missile launchers using the Sea Cat missiles?

I do hope not, if she's still using Sea Cat after a post 2004 refit then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

[gaiasabre11]

I do hope not, if she's still using Sea Cat after a post 2004 refit then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Yes, I was thinking of the same thing. But the missiles and their launchers look almost identical to Sea Cats to me.
If they really are Sea Cats I suggest switching them to Asters.

[trekaddict]

While these are indeed Sea Cats, I put them there for the lack of another decent British short to medium range Naval SAM system, at least in the parts list I found on that page. Any suggestions? While the Garfish is available, it lacks an easily identifiable launcher.... I'll have a look at it.


For now, see the Sea Cats as a stand-in for some Alternate System. The Garfish most likely.

[trekaddict]

Gigalocus It's not odd, it's British. Also, the horizontal Launcher between the funnels is supposed to be a Cruise-Missile launcher for storm Shadows.

rest: I have found an alternate Sea Cat 2 launch system. They were fitted in '95, and as a stopgap, are due to be replaced by the Seabird Naval SAM system some time in the 2010s along with the Sea Dart Mk. II ADWS.31. (Note: The Seabird is the TTL version of the PAAMS, only that instead of the French, one is working with [Censored, Official Secrets Act 1987].)

I also have an idea for a 1960's missile cruiser as an escort for the CVNs and the Lions. Hmm....

[trekaddict]

And, I am going to start over on the Lion anyway. I found a better base drawing.

[gaiasabre11]

Gigalocus It's not odd, it's British. Also, the horizontal Launcher between the funnels is supposed to be a Cruise-Missile launcher for storm Shadows.

rest: I have found an alternate Sea Cat 2 launch system. They were fitted in '95, and as a stopgap, are due to be replaced by the Seabird Naval SAM system some time in the 2010s along with the Sea Dart Mk. II ADWS.31. (Note: The Seabird is the TTL version of the PAAMS, only that instead of the French, one is working with [Censored, Official Secrets Act 1987].)

Ok, so from what I can tell now your VLS missile launchers launches SCALP NAVAL, while your "Seabird" provides AA defence. While not try combining them into one system as in the Sylver Launcher System type A-70?

I should also note that the Italians are also involved with the PAAMS, don't leave them out.

[TheHyphenated1]

Ooh, shipbucket...!

[gaiasabre11]

Ooh, shipbucket...!

One thing I don't like about shipbucket is that it doesn't have a lot of French designs and systems.

[trekaddict]

gaiasabre11 The problem is that the Air Defence System is short ranged, whilst the Storm Shadows are primarily land-attack, for medium and long range. Besides, I'm not a big fan of combined weapons system that have to do more than one job, as they tend not to do any of them particularly well. Neither is the Royal Navy. But anyway, there are provisions for separate launchers, so why not use them? Why spend precious money and time on a system that combines the two when the two separate ones can do it well enough? Also, in TTL the Sea Dart will be deleted as the Seabird will use both a short-ranged SAM and a Garfish-Class high performance missile as well.



TheHyphenated1 Indeed. I wasted a lot of time this week on that page.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Besides, I'm not a big fan of combined weapons system that have to do more than one job, as they tend not to do any of them particularly well.

Amen at that, lil' bro...

[trekaddict]

Amen at that, lil' bro...

Indeed. I think I also need to clarify. I typed above post from a Computer at the Uni, and was strapped for time. Sea Bird ( a typo in the original post ) is meant to provide Point Defence, i.e. supplemen the gun-based CIWIS.

[trekaddict]

There. You happy now?


Armaments: 9x 15" guns, 4x 115mm Bofors "Secondaries" ( as used on various smaller ships), 2x quad Sea Dart Mk.II launcher, 5x Sea Cat 2 launcher, 48x Sea Shadow Cruise missiles, 4x Royal Ordnance CIWS. This will be supplemanted from 2010 onwards by 16x Garfish SAMs in box launchers that will replace the Sea Darts. Not to forget the Merlin ASW/Ferry Helicopter.

The 15" are used because there were still spare guns that were intended for the KGVs, and hence the facilities to maintain/manufacture them. The Lions were last re-gunned in 1979.

[gaiasabre11]

gaiasabre11 The problem is that the Air Defence System is short ranged, whilst the Storm Shadows are primarily land-attack, for medium and long range. Besides, I'm not a big fan of combined weapons system that have to do more than one job, as they tend not to do any of them particularly well. Neither is the Royal Navy. But anyway, there are provisions for separate launchers, so why not use them? Why spend precious money and time on a system that combines the two when the two separate ones can do it well enough? Also, in TTL the Sea Dart will be deleted as the Seabird will use both a short-ranged SAM and a Garfish-Class high performance missile as well.

There. You happy now?

Armaments: 9x 15" guns, 4x 115mm Bofors "Secondaries" ( as used on various smaller ships), 2x quad Sea Dart Mk.II launcher, 5x Sea Cat 2 launcher, 48x Sea Shadow Cruise missiles, 4x Royal Ordnance CIWS. This will be supplemanted from 2010 onwards by 16x Garfish SAMs in box launchers that will replace the Sea Darts. Not to forget the Merlin ASW/Ferry Helicopter.

The 15" are used because there were still spare guns that were intended for the KGVs, and hence the facilities to maintain/manufacture them. The Lions were last re-gunned in 1979.

Here's some more suggestions: (I should actually keep these to myself and my Alsace Class so that I can make a good arguement at "My Alsace can pwn your Lion" )

Delete the 4 CIWS guns you have now and replace them with the Bofors 57 mm mk3 CIWS guns. Bofors 57mm

Replace the Sea Cats with RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missiles. RAM

I'm a big fan of VLSs for missiles, so I certainly do not woot for box launchers anymore.

Where's your surface to surface missiles? I demand some Exocets!

Lastly, no lifeboats? You sure are confident that your Lion is invincible.

A bit demanding on your design. Just take them as my humble suggestions.

[trekaddict]

Here's some more suggestions: (I should actually keep these to myself and my Alsace Class so that I can make a good arguement at "My Alsace can pwn your Lion" )

Delete the 4 CIWS guns you have now and replace them with the Bofors 57 mm mk3 CIWS guns. Bofors 57mm

Replace the Sea Cats with RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missiles. RAM

I'm a big fan of VLSs for missiles, so I certainly do not woot for box launchers anymore.

Where's your surface to surface missiles? I demand some Exocets!

Lastly, no lifeboats? You sure are confident that your Lion is invincible.

A bit demanding on your design. Just take them as my humble suggestions.

Oh dear. A typo again. I did mean VLS launchers. Anyway. While the 57mm Bofors looks neat, the CIWS is a proper close-in point defence system. I admit, I was influenced by various cold-war books and the OTL USS Missouri, but I believe that at CIWS is supposed to catch any threats and enemy missiles that make it through the SAM defences. For long-range Surface to Surface work, the ships have the Sea Shadows, ( Storm Shadows ), for more close range the 15" and for short-range the secondaries. Seriously though, I've read that more and more Navies are moving away from deadicated ASMs, as modern SAMS are dual-purpose in that regard, so I can tell you know, with permission of the Admiralty and HM Goverment that the Sea Dart Mk.2 is such a DP missile. ( You cant prove me wrong as it was never built in OTL. Hah.) Also exocets? FRENCH? Seriously though, by the end of the AAR you will know why the RN can't ever buy something from the French. They will be replaced by the Garfish. Does anyone have more info on it? I know I saw a picture of it somewhere, but my google skills are too low.

[El Pip]

. I admit, I was influenced by various cold-war books and the OTL USS Missouri, but I believe that at CIWS is supposed to catch any threats and enemy missiles that make it through the SAM defences.

Well the lessons from Missouri are;
1. Don't put a clever computer filter on your radar, just train your operators properly.
2. Always keep a RN Type 42 nearby to keep you safe when the rest of your USN escorts fail miserably.

[gaiasabre11]

Oh dear. A typo again. I did mean VLS launchers. Anyway. While the 57mm Bofors looks neat, the CIWS is a proper close-in point defence system. I admit, I was influenced by various cold-war books and the OTL USS Missouri, but I believe that at CIWS is supposed to catch any threats and enemy missiles that make it through the SAM defences. For long-range Surface to Surface work, the ships have the Sea Shadows, ( Storm Shadows ), for more close range the 15" and for short-range the secondaries. Seriously though, I've read that more and more Navies are moving away from deadicated ASMs, as modern SAMS are dual-purpose in that regard, so I can tell you know, with permission of the Admiralty and HM Goverment that the Sea Cat 2 is such a DP missile. ( You cant prove me wrong as it was never built in OTL. Hah.) Also exocets? FRENCH? Seriously though, by the end of the AAR you will know why the RN can't ever buy something from the French.

Edit: There are liveboats, but I simply didn't put them on. One in-between the funnels on each side at deck level, one on each side of the superstructre between the first CIWS and the second turret, and the assorted rafts and mae vests.

The 57 mm Bofors can also be used as a CIWS gun (it is actually, for example in the USN Zumwalt) and can fire at a rate of around 4 round/s. Since it's pretty accurate and packs a lot more punch due to the larger calibre, I still think that it is a better choice than the CIWS guns you have now. If you insist on having a faster firing weapon than you can also go for the OTOBreda 40 mm / 70 Bofors with the latest version having a rpm of 450. If you use a double mount version of it you can get a total of 900 rpm.

OK, so you're using your "SCALP NAVAL" as ASM weapons. Fair enough. I thought that you intended to use them solely as land attack weapons.

The Sea Cats were developed from AT missiles, so yes I accept your arguement of them being DP, but seriously I do think that they lack range and the firepower for them to take up the ASM role unless they are used against Somali Pirates. Just delete them and use the RAMs or other missile systems.

Furthermore, I still don't like to mix SAM and ASM missiles together, due to the warhead size that I think each should have. Although I do propose for the SAM and ASM to share a common sophisticated guidiance system and booster.

I do know that the RN in your AAR never buys French weaponries. I guess my attempt of tricking you into using French weapon systems didn't work out.

[trekaddict]

El Pip Indeed. RN RDF Operators ( the term RADAR never makes it off the ground in TTL ) are properly trained, and as it happens, the Type 42, along with an as of yet undetermined type of Air Defence/Missile Cruiser was developed as an escort for the CVNs and serves just aswel for the Lions.

gaiasabre11 The CIWS as it is now was fitted on the Lions in the 90's, alongside the Sea Cats. The next refit for HMS Lion, and subsequently spread out over the next four to five years, the other Lions is due for 2012, so the 57mm might make it aboard. The Sea Darts in OTL had around 80ish miles of range in the last version of the original one, so I figured that ~120 sea miles could be had with improved rocket fuel and a ramjet booster perhaps? Besides, the Garfish will have, from what I have heard, the range needed. The DP missiles aren't exactly my cup of tea either, but I have heard this from various naval personel and people who work the industry or are at least close to it, so it stands to reason that it happens in TTL because of less weight, less cost and so on. Besides, these give smaller ships like missile boats or frigates an even bigger punch, no? Also, for some strange, and totally not related to the Falklands reason Exocets and RN doesnt mix.

[gaiasabre11]

gaiasabre11 The CIWS as it is now was fitted on the Lions in the 90's, alongside the Sea Cats. The next refit for HMS Lion, and subsequently spread out over the next four to five years, the other Lions is due for 2012, so the 57mm might make it aboard. The Sea Darts in OTL had around 80ish miles of range in the last version of the original one, so I figured that ~120 sea miles could be had with improved rocket fuel and a ramjet booster perhaps? Besides, the Garfish will have, from what I have heard, the range needed. The DP missiles aren't exactly my cup of tea either, but I have heard this from various naval personel and people who work the industry or are at least close to it, so it stands to reason that it happens in TTL because of less weight, less cost and so on. Besides, these give smaller ships like missile boats or frigates an even bigger punch, no? Also, for some strange, and totally not related to the Falklands reason Exocets and RN doesnt mix.

The RN did use the Exocets before 2002, you know. Anyways Alsace then gets to keep the Exocets to herself. I'm even thinking of what it will be like if Alsace gets some BrahMos II onboard. Brahmos