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Thread: A Comparison of CAs, BBs and SHBBs

  1. #1

    A Comparison of CAs, BBs and SHBBs

    i wrote a little (well, almost 5 pages :/ ) analysis about the usefullness of different capital ships with the aim to examine the usefulness of CAs. i hope you enjoy it and have a lot of feedback.

    current version: april 2nd
    http://mitglied.lycos.de/manziel/efficiency_of_CAs.pdf
    A comparison of CAs, BBs and SHBBs

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  2. #2
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    Excellent analysis, especially about the CAs. I'll see them more of use now.

  3. #3
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    Where do u get the info that positioning = chance to target a screen? I would think it to be chance to target a capital.
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  4. #4
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullfrog
    Where do u get the info that positioning = chance to target a screen? I would think it to be chance to target a capital.
    I think his theory is that the enemy positioning value determines how effective your ships are at targeting their capitals. It would make sense that a well positioned fleet is harder to attack though I don't know enough to say that is how it works.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by safferli
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  7. #7
    does the ratio still guarantee superiority over same sized fleets if you're using 12 and 18 ship fleets? (Many countries don't have a lot of grand admirals...)

    I'm assuming it is, but you never know...

    EDIT: Nicely written article btw. Good job

  8. #8
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    Nice work.

    However, why isn't the "best" fleet something like:
    2xCA
    2xCVL
    26x CL+FC

  9. #9
    One problem I would have is you have not traced the impact of the first round of shooting into the future.

    Also, you fail to consider the screen heavy fleet. It is reasonably well documented that a screen-zerg fleet beats all the 15/15 (or 14/16) capital/screen fleets with limited losses. Whether or not this is WAD (I suspect it is!), it must be considered. The "best" fleet suddenly becomes a question of what your opponents fleet is, I suspect, and their is no absolute "best" fleet for your IC investment.

    Here in lies the problem with any analysis of the naval combat model: we just don't understand how it works. Canoe < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battleship < Canoe seems to hold in game, whether this is fluke, or careful design is subject to debate. What it does show is that certain of your assumptions (chiefly the ~1:1 Capital:Screen being optimal) regarding fleet composition are clearly not always correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAB
    Also, you fail to consider the screen heavy fleet. It is reasonably well documented that a screen-zerg fleet beats all the 15/15 (or 14/16) capital/screen fleets with limited losses.
    But how does an all screen fleet close? As I understand it, such a fleet can't use CVL's, because with no other caps it will stay at CVL range.

    Sure if you have the better leader it will close most of the time regardless, but when you don't have the better leader, what then? Run away?

    I'm no naval expert, so do enlighten me if I've got something backwards.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RedFinn
    But how does an all screen fleet close? As I understand it, such a fleet can't use CVL's, because with no other caps it will stay at CVL range.

    Sure if you have the better leader it will close most of the time regardless, but when you don't have the better leader, what then? Run away?

    I'm no naval expert, so do enlighten me if I've got something backwards.
    Wasn't there a bug where an all-screen fleet immediately closes to 1km? Might have been fixed in the latest patch though.
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  12. #12
    academic outlaw Moderator safferli's Avatar
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    I thought the bug was an all-capital fleet will immediately close to 5km range?
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by safferli
    I thought the bug was an all-capital fleet will immediately close to 5km range?
    Oh. I'm probably wrong then

    Just tried a game as '41 Japan, but couldn't seem to get the effect to appear. I guess Paradox has fixed it then; or maybe it was because my ships were up against American carriers....
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  14. #14
    Isn't the reason cruizerg fleets can beat BB fleets because ALL ships in the cruiserg fleet can fire at the enemy fleet? If BB firing ranges were lowered to that of CA or CL, this would allow their escorts to be able to open fire as well. That should allow the BB fleet to beat the cruizerg fleets. thoughts?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RedFinn
    Nice work.

    However, why isn't the "best" fleet something like:
    2xCA
    2xCVL
    26x CL+FC
    because of the lack of capitals. assume such a fleet meets the fleet i have proposed with 13 CAs. if you have 50% positioning, 6-7 CAs will target capitals, inevitably leading to multiple targetting. if you lose your CVLs you are doomed against an enemy CTF, if you lose your CAs, the CLs will be out of range. such a fleet is more cost-effective and has only minor losses in fire-power but it is risky

    I thought the bug was an all-capital fleet will immediately close to 5km range?
    actually its not the pure capital fleet closing. a non-CV-fleet will close to 1nm if the enemy has no screens.

    concerning pure screens fleets there is a lack of knowledge. i have already heard several times that pure DD-fleets close to gun-range but i have never played one. i also dont know about pure CL-fleets.
    it is however a rule that SA/ship rises significantly the smaller the ship gets, so a zerg-fleet will always be more effective if you can get it in range. however you need to consider that every ship above 30 will get an OCL-penalty, reducing its effectiveness.
    i also put the word "best" in inverted commas as i consider this fleet to be the best alround fleet, of course than can be better compositions depending on your enemy

    does the ratio still guarantee superiority over same sized fleets if you're using 12 and 18 ship fleets? (Many countries don't have a lot of grand admirals...)
    i dont understand what you exactly mean. the capital:screen-ratio?
    or the x CAs target one BB ratio?
    in general, if you get enough ships, an admiral will be auto-promoted. i had 5 battlefleets in my last germany game and only had to manually promote the last grand admiral (transport-fleet was led by a normal admiral). one operational fleet means that you have about 40 ships as there are always some ships that need repairs

    Isn't the reason cruizerg fleets can beat BB fleets because ALL ships in the cruiserg fleet can fire at the enemy fleet? If BB firing ranges were lowered to that of CA or CL, this would allow their escorts to be able to open fire as well. That should allow the BB fleet to beat the cruizerg fleets. thoughts?
    they would be able to beat them but at a high price. i would expect both fleets to be out of commision for some time as gunfire has problems to fight gunfire in general. it is just the problem that you dont gain an advantage by fighting enemy gunfire at night or bad weather
    A comparison of CAs, BBs and SHBBs

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    Benjamin Franklin

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jones
    Isn't the reason cruizerg fleets can beat BB fleets because ALL ships in the cruiserg fleet can fire at the enemy fleet? If BB firing ranges were lowered to that of CA or CL, this would allow their escorts to be able to open fire as well. That should allow the BB fleet to beat the cruizerg fleets. thoughts?
    But as BBs would take damage (which is much more costly to repair), they might come worse off from the exchange in IC-days. The idea of BB is that they can relatively unpunished hit other surface ships.
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    they would be able to beat them but at a high price. i would expect both fleets to be out of commision for some time as gunfire has problems to fight gunfire in general. it is just the problem that you dont gain an advantage by fighting enemy gunfire at night or bad weather
    Yes I suppose. To fix that the sea attack/defense could be modified to allow greater separation of the units. The way naval combat works right now is simply not realistic. 2 BB fleets engaged in battle wouldn't just involve the BBs shooting at each other and the escorts. The destroyers would make torpedo runs and screen against the other destroyers doing the same. This doesn't happen in HOI with the current system. That is why I propose to change the firing ranges to allow ALL ships to be engaged in the battles. But this also needs further tweaks to sea attack/defense so that destroyers don't sink battleships all too often.

  18. #18
    In your open questions section you mention the flag ships with more kills. Is that not just a matter of probability? Often enough more than one ship targets another one. Let´s assume, three ships fire at one target. Then the one above in the list is exactly the one that is most likely to sink it as it has statistically most shots as it fires first. And if the targeted ship is heavily damaged after one combat round the first ship in the list firing at that target is the one sinking it.

    As the flag ship always fires first (every combat round anew) it fires - on the long run - much more than any other ship and so sinks much more than any other ship.

    Or is there anything I don´t see?!?

  19. #19
    Field Marshal mike8472's Avatar
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    I tested this out in a mulitplayer game against a very good player and it worked well.

    I was Germany and built 3 serials of CAs, 2 With FC 1 without. The one without fire control is so my fleet has CAs with lower gun range so the battle is target at 90% of that range allowing the CLs with FC to also fight. I had 4 serials of CLs all with FC and 2 serials of CVLs.

    The battles occured around gibralter and to the south around the canarie islands.

    My fleet of 30 ships, 13 CAs most with FC, 15 CLs with FC and 2 CVLs engaged a 30 ship UK fleet with 8 BBs, 3 CVs and number of CAs CLs and DDs. It was an intense and costly battle for both sides. In the end I pulled out as a 2nd fleet came in, the remains of the french fleet with a few more BBs and crusiers.

    Befor I tell you the results of that battle there was another battle with my 2nd fleet made up of the starting BCs, CAs and CLs along with a number of new builds making a fleet of 24 ships with 2 CVLs. This fleet also engaged a large fleet of some 50+ ships trying to evac the 20 divisions I was fighting at gibralter. I succesfully engaged the fleet and held it off long enough to destroy those 20 divisions. After this I pulled out as my fleet had lost 9 ships and I was massively outnumbered.

    In these two battles although I lost around a combined total of 30 ships mostly CLs with some CAs. The UK lost 3 CVs, 10 BBs, 3 BC, 3 CAs, 11 CLs, 14 TPs, 14 DDs. The loss of the 10 BBs plus 3 CVs was the main part of the UK surface fleet. These losses could not be replaced for the UK anytime soon. The french fleet and other allied fleets also lost around anoth 20 ships.

    All up my fleets took alot of losses but dealt out far more to the enemy and has gained naval superioty. My losses could be replaced rather quickly with 7 serials of cruisers building, running at now full gearing. 100 days for a CLs and around 140 for a CA. In just over a year I can replace most of my losses, could the UK replace its?

    The answer is no. Once the fleet was repaired the remainder of both fleets merged to form one fleet of about 25 ships. This combined with the Italian fleet sortied to invade the UK home islands. Since naval superiorty was won in the previous battles only limited reistance from the UK fleet occured. With some 160 Axis divisions massed on the french coast the UK was soon over run.

    At present its is nearly time for the Russian war its may 1941. We always wait till the histocial date. I had one fleet of 30 ships and another of about 15 ships, I estimate that by end of 1941 to early 1942 I will have 2 full fleets of 30 ships. These will mostly engage the US navy should they try and attack me. I plan to use these fleets in a 1,2 punch. Should I find a US fleet the first fleet will engage and depending on if I win or retreat, the 2nd fleet will move in to do further damage to an already weakened fleet. I may even have a 3rd 30 ship fleet built by the time the US is confident enough to attack. With the UK in my possiesion, gibralter, suez, middle east all in my hands the US faces a big task.

    It is a 6 player MP games and this curizerg strategy has worked wonders for me so far.
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  20. #20
    Have you done one such for Carries?

    I will be reading this


    Edit : Ok read - most important thing learned was I didn't know that fleets tried to positiion to 90% of the range of the capital ship with the lowest range. Seems to me this is important when configuring fleets and to use or not use fire control. Before I added fire control to all capital ships but I guess if you are trying to get your Light Cruisers into range this is a problem.

    Also - I noticed in one game I had old Cruisers (heavy and light) that were out ranged by a newer Light Carrier and it seems my fleet kept at Light Carrier range? So my CVL would make hits but my Cruisers wouldn't be in range. Obviously this is a problem. Does Light Carrier try and maintain range at its own range and this takes precedence over fleet trying to get within range of smallest range capital ship?
    Last edited by Gabriel Anthony; 03-04-2008 at 20:48.

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