Atlantic Friend said:
I actually had a brain fart, and thought the Abwehr was the name for the German high command.
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I actually had a brain fart, and thought the Abwehr was the name for the German high command.
Rhine Barges?! It's even worse than I thought, I assumed the delay till 1937 would give Germany enough time to build a proper landing fleet and supply train. A small malformed one perhaps, given they have bugger all experience in the matter of amphibious assault it's inevitable they'll get the details wrong, but certainly something purpose built.
If they go with Rhine Barges those things can be knocked over by a strong breeze, anything above Sea State 4(ish) and the Channel will kill all the Germans before the Royal Navy even has chance to fire a shot. Which would be quite amusing in a very black and macabre way.
If they go with Rhine Barges those things can be knocked over by a strong breeze, anything above Sea State 4(ish) and the Channel will kill all the Germans before the Royal Navy even has chance to fire a shot. Which would be quite amusing in a very black and macabre way.
Faeelin - Not to worry! We all do that sometimes... Just ask the other readers about the time I accidentally captioned a picture "Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition" in 1936 
o .
El Pip - This being 1936 even the British barely have anything suitable. The Germans are more behind still. At present, invasion planning documents only make vague references to barges -- which if carried out as such would basically amount to a reverse Dunkirk. That is, rounding up just about anything that will float and trying to put troops on shore that way. Which relies on no opposition to the crossing and basically a swimming pool sea state . Actually RMA Sandhurst's several recreations of this scenario over the years found that even the wakes of passing German destroyers would be enough to swamp some of the barges that were marshaled for the invasion in OTL.
o .El Pip - This being 1936 even the British barely have anything suitable. The Germans are more behind still. At present, invasion planning documents only make vague references to barges -- which if carried out as such would basically amount to a reverse Dunkirk. That is, rounding up just about anything that will float and trying to put troops on shore that way. Which relies on no opposition to the crossing and basically a swimming pool sea state
. Actually RMA Sandhurst's several recreations of this scenario over the years found that even the wakes of passing German destroyers would be enough to swamp some of the barges that were marshaled for the invasion in OTL.
As somebody told me once: the Channel is a bitch body of sea to cross.
Barges... my gosh. I have, by the way, a brand new ship, big, fast, quite capable of carrying a lot of ships. Tell Adolf that I can buy her to him, quite cheap. Her name? Titanic.
Barges... my gosh. I have, by the way, a brand new ship, big, fast, quite capable of carrying a lot of ships. Tell Adolf that I can buy her to him, quite cheap. Her name? Titanic.
Kurt_Steiner said:As somebody told me once: the Channel is a bitch body of sea to cross.
Barges... my gosh. I have, by the way, a brand new ship, big, fast, quite capable of carrying a lot of ships. Tell Adolf that I can buy her to him, quite cheap. Her name? Titanic.
How dare you? She was a failure, true, but still one of Britannia's engineering marvels. One does not sell those to the boche.
trekaddict said:How dare you? She was a failure, true, but still one of Britannia's engineering marvels. One does not sell those to the boche.
Ok, ok, then the Andrea Doria will suit fine, methinks. :rofl:
I thought andrea doria was built after the war.
Anyway a naval invasion is going to have to wait until the kreigsmarine is more built up. (What build scheme are you using anyway? Historical(BC's and BB's with subs), Cruizerg,BB,Carriers, subs?)
Anyway a naval invasion is going to have to wait until the kreigsmarine is more built up. (What build scheme are you using anyway? Historical(BC's and BB's with subs), Cruizerg,BB,Carriers, subs?)
Kurt_Steiner (1) - Someone, manufacture a Pykrete iceberg, quick!
trekaddict - Not to worry, she's safely at the bottom of the sea .
Kurt_Steiner (2) - Or the Mary Rose...
darthkommandant - They're focusing on transports at the moment. As Raeder concedes, large warships are taking a back seat to things that can be helpful in time for the invasion. In terms of battleships, the closest we are to one is that one hull has been ordered, but the war has delayed a keel-laying or any actual construction.
trekaddict - Not to worry, she's safely at the bottom of the sea
.Kurt_Steiner (2) - Or the Mary Rose...
darthkommandant - They're focusing on transports at the moment. As Raeder concedes, large warships are taking a back seat to things that can be helpful in time for the invasion. In terms of battleships, the closest we are to one is that one hull has been ordered, but the war has delayed a keel-laying or any actual construction.
Faeelin said:
I have similar brain cramps.
Come to think of it, it IS odd, though, how a system that basically produced good to very good officers could not develop a reliable instrument for military intelligence.
The two are fairly different, the requirements of a good tank commander or staff officer are not those of a intelligence officer.Atlantic Friend said:
If I were to hazard a guess I would say it was a problem of not doubting enough, the Abwehr was good at dealing what was put in front of it and could work when it had nothing to go on.
What it was very bad at was being given information, then stepping back and saying it was a plant or a pack of lies. They were very easily fooled and misled more than actual incompetence. Whether it was Operation Mincemeat or the constant Soviet use of camouflage and mis-direction I don't think German military intelligence ever really learnt to doubt what is was looking at.
Atlantic Friend (1 & 2) - Yes. Perhaps much can be made of the conscious value that Germany placed on the cultivation of a military intelligence staff prior to and especially following the Franco-Prussian war.
El Pip - I agree. The question that follows is an interesting one. Why did the Abwehr exhibit such a startling flaw?
El Pip - I agree. The question that follows is an interesting one. Why did the Abwehr exhibit such a startling flaw?
I can help on that. Back then, and to a certain degree even today, Germans liked to believe what they were told, without questioning it. This was especially true with Officers of all sorts, and when you are raised like that it is hard to detect any sort of deception.
This AAR continues to be truly fantastic. I had fallen behind, but am now caught back up and eagerly awaiting future updates.
trekaddict - Very interesting... Surely that could be part of the explanation. Thanks for your perspective!
Hardraade - Thank you very much, and I'm extremely glad to see you around here again!
Hardraade - Thank you very much, and I'm extremely glad to see you around here again!
TheHyphenated1 said:
Another fine example of Britannia's engineering marvels, indeed
Jealousy will get you nowhere sir.Kurt_Steiner said:Another fine example of Britannia's engineering marvels, indeed
I begun reading this 6 hours ago, and now I am finished.
This is epic.
One of the greatest narratives of the year 2008 on these forums!
This is epic.
One of the greatest narratives of the year 2008 on these forums!
El Pip said:Jealousy will get you nowhere sir.
Jealousy nowhere, but irony will lead to the most elevated places of humour, sir.
I admit, however, that the Hood was better than the Mary Rose and the Titanic together.
I counter with a suitable Spanish failure, alas Spanish industry never progressed beyond new and inventive ways to be cruel to animals.Kurt_Steiner said:I admit, however, that the Hood was better than the Mary Rose and the Titanic together.