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Thread: Discipline - What is it for?

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    Captain Mulla's Avatar
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    Discipline - What is it for?

    I'm playing my first game of NA 2.2. It is now around 1600, my country (Württemberg) is one of the biggest and far the strongest (with difficulty normal and aggressive AI), so I really do not complain. All I want to know is what effect discipline has and what has effects on it. I never had a discipline under 100%.

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    Major Thomas Paine's Avatar
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    Your troops do more damage with higher discipline.
    Policy slider Quality vs Quantity affects it with 2% per quality step.
    Also there is a national idea giving 25% discipline later on in the game.
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    Captain Mulla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Paine
    Your troops do more damage with higher discipline.
    Policy slider Quality vs Quantity affects it with 2% per quality step.
    Also there is a national idea giving 25% discipline later on in the game.
    Nice, but why should I do anything to have more discipline? It is always 100%. Can it get lower than that? And how? And can it get over 100%?

    I have no trouble winning my battles. Since my army is 200.000 men (Ming has 100.000, the next is my ally Austria with 70.000) I simply crush my enemies by number and my generals.

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    Major Thomas Paine's Avatar
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    You could make them more damaging by going for higher quality. Doing more damage with a smaller army is more efficient economically. However, I am not sure whether the war capacity calculations do honour a more efficient army or just look at numbers.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mulla
    Nice, but why should I do anything to have more discipline? It is always 100%. Can it get lower than that? And how? And can it get over 100%?
    You quoted the answer

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Kanitatlan's Avatar
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    But does anyone know for definite exactly what discipline does to the combat algorithms. There is a fairly obvious guess but has anyone tested it and collected figures.

    (I will need a proper analysis of discipline to update the military FAQ)

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    I wish I could say for sure. It appears that it works similar to morale but slightly different. Troops seem to fight longer, do more damage, and miraculously win battles, sometimes even outnumbered 3:1. Its hard to tell though, there are so many variables.

    to answer the OP, yes it can get much higher or lower than 100%. I've seen it as high as 135%.

  8. #8
    Dei Gratia author dharper's Avatar
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    Johan (EDIT: or possibly another admin; I can't find my source for this) has said for the record that discipline doesn't affect morale.

    I haven't seen any statistics on it, but my understanding is that a unit with 125% discipline will do 1.25x the casualties per day as a unit with 100% discipline. I'm not clear on whether this affects defense or only offense.
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    Heavy mortar team member Zaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dharper
    Johan (EDIT: or possibly another admin; I can't find my source for this) has said for the record that discipline doesn't affect morale.

    I haven't seen any statistics on it, but my understanding is that a unit with 125% discipline will do 1.25x the casualties per day as a unit with 100% discipline. I'm not clear on whether this affects defense or only offense.

    Well, it seems only logical to me that it should affect both equally.
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    Field Marshal Kanitatlan's Avatar
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    Which leads to the question of whether it is simply a scale on the shock and fire multipliers of your troops. The key issues then are

    is it simply a multiplier on casualties you inflict
    does it affect the casualties you receive
    does apply to morale damage inflicted as well as casualties

    my guess is

    yes
    no
    yes

    This would simply make and army with 1.21 discipline equal to a force with 10% more troops (square root rule applies). This would be quite reasonable but due to the engagement rules it makes discipline extremely effective especially when quite large armies are fighting (ie when the engaged ratio is very close to 1:1).

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    Heavy mortar team member Zaki's Avatar
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    I agree that it shouldn't affect both a) and b), but I think that, based on what dharper said earlier, c) is also no. Hm. Maybe discipline affects a) if you're attacking, and b) if you're defending?
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    Dei Gratia author dharper's Avatar
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    I'd still doublecheck whether it affects morale damage empirically. I'd be interested to have a more concrete understanding of it.
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    Magrathean Engineer Haftetavenscrap's Avatar
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    Here's an example of 2 battles with 129% discipline. You can see the RADICAL effects .

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    Shocking results.
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    Fidei Defensor JohnMK's Avatar
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    That's not really that useful. Now, on to the empirical, double-blind, placebo controlled testing.
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    Field Marshal Kanitatlan's Avatar
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    What is actually needed is a battle with a pause after a day and recording of the individual regimental losses. If you look at the military FAQ you will see it is possible to calculate exactly what the personnel and morale losses should be on a regiment by regiment basis without discipline and therefore it becomes very simply to establish what its effects are. It is a bit of a statistical chore but I can't see why we would need to test more than one day of one battle. If nobody else bothers then I will get round to it sooner or later but currently I am trying some siege assault analysis (which is time consuming).

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    Damn Atheist Commie! artemis667's Avatar
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    Did anyone work anything out about this?

    My thought is that discipline doesn't directly impact combat damage - but what it does do is mean that your regiments don't lose morale as frequently during combat - introducing a 'hold the line' factor. Meaning that even as the enemy units get reduced to 0 morale and flee, your troops are likely to stay in the fight, continuing to inflict damage.

    Am I right? Or on the wrong track?
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by artemis667 View Post
    Did anyone work anything out about this?

    My thought is that discipline doesn't directly impact combat damage - but what it does do is mean that your regiments don't lose morale as frequently during combat - introducing a 'hold the line' factor. Meaning that even as the enemy units get reduced to 0 morale and flee, your troops are likely to stay in the fight, continuing to inflict damage.

    Am I right? Or on the wrong track?

    Quote Originally Posted by dharper View Post
    Johan (EDIT: or possibly another admin; I can't find my source for this) has said for the record that discipline doesn't affect morale.
    Unless you have proof otherwise of course.
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  19. #19
    Lt. General RedFish's Avatar
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    Your troops will do a base amount of damage multiplied the percantage - 100% will mean that the result is multiplied by 1.0, 95% means 0.95 multiplier. Dealing more damage to you opponent will mean that there are fewer enemies to hit back on you, so naturally your men suffer fewer casualties.

    There are plenty of other things affecting casualties - tech level for instance determines the morale, shock and fire modifier for calvary, infantry and artilley, but disciplin does what I stated above.

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    Damn Atheist Commie! artemis667's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedFish View Post
    Your troops will do a base amount of damage multiplied the percantage - 100% will mean that the result is multiplied by 1.0, 95% means 0.95 multiplier. Dealing more damage to you opponent will mean that there are fewer enemies to hit back on you, so naturally your men suffer fewer casualties.

    There are plenty of other things affecting casualties - tech level for instance determines the morale, shock and fire modifier for calvary, infantry and artilley, but disciplin does what I stated above.
    Ah cool, its a bit more black & white than I was expecting.
    Do you know if it impacts morale damage, or just casualties (as often I find battles - especially in the early game - are as much about managing morale as they are about avoiding/inflicting losses)
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