Noob question: Good starting country

[bbasgen]

Hello Everyone,

I'm a paradox fanboy, and come from HOI2, EU2, and Vicky. I recently picked up crusader kings essentially for free, and I've heard some good things about it, so I want to give it a shot.

I started a game as Byzantium and figured out pretty much immediately that I had no idea what was going on! I looked around for a Wiki, but it seems that paradoxian doesn't carry it, and the FAQ sections don't help my level of noobness.

So, what is a good country to start with to get a feel for this game?

[Orinsul]

Id recommend to choose somewhere small, the Welsh Dukes hold no liege in 66 so its probably a good place to learn the mechanics from and the opportunity to create a kingdom just around the corner if the english start giving you gyp.

[ulmont]

So, what is a good country to start with to get a feel for this game?

The Duchy of Bohemia (can create the Kingdom and break free from Germany as soon as they get 250 gold) or the Duchy of Apulia (independent, great position for crusading) are 2 good starting points.

[Drachenfire]

Id recommend to choose somewhere small, the Welsh Dukes hold no liege in 66 so its probably a good place to learn the mechanics from and the opportunity to create a kingdom just around the corner if the english start giving you gyp.

I agree. However, only play the Welsh if you are playing Jord's DV Improvement Pack or More Kingdoms Mode. Simply put, these versions have correct Welsh dynasties in place (Aberffraw, Dinefwr, Mathrafal, Morgan, and Gwen), and corrected geography, and even corrected Anglo-Saxons in England!

I recommend playing as Bleddyn, scone of the Mathrafal house. He currently occupies the Duchy of Gwynedd.. Historically he filled the power vacuum after his maternal half-brother King Gruffydd was killed in 1063.

See my signature for links

Good luck!

[delra]

For starters you want something small, something you can deal with without going crazy. Too big demesne and you will start showing stress symptoms. You just don't have enough intrigue to do the job required from a player running a huge country, so forget France, Germany or Byzantine.

I learned the game on Barcelona, Bavaria, Bohemia and Denmark. Sicilians and Brittany are nice too. All of them are rich, start quite capable but aren't too big for you. You will have fun with them.

Also, install the mods the guy in the post above mine recommended. They fix a lot and add a lot. :-)

[NicWester]

Am I the only one who learned by playing a County at first?

Maybe that's why there was such a steep learning curve. Huh.

[fbaker4]

My first was Kingdom of Norway. Easy, small, and poor ;-)
then I tried Duchy of Luxembourg; easy to break away, but harder to grow
then County of Vermandois - a direct descendant of Charlemagne! and took that to King of France & 3/4 of the map. Now doing the same from County of Phillopolis - Byzantium, + 8 king titles by 1300.

The key, as I am another 'HoI first' player, is understanding that in CK, the family is primary, and the expansion is secondary, and the land development tertiary.

[ComradeOm]

Personally I like Denmark. Its a small family-run kingdom with no real economic woes and plenty of nearby heathens to bash. Really that's everything that a beginner could ask for from a nation

[ulmont]

Am I the only one who learned by playing a County at first?

I played England first, but in retrospect I would have done better with Apulia.

[Jooce]

Really, do we need a clone of this topic every other week?

Perhaps a sticky could be made? Or this could be stickied?

[unorthodoxt]

Really, do we need a clone of this topic every other week?

Perhaps a sticky could be made? Or this could be stickied?

Clone topics mean we can clone our replies each and every time for a higher post count.

*duh*

And I played as England my first time. You have some disloyal vassals but it shows you how to deal with that right away. And you have some other nations around you that won't be too hard to fight later on if you so choose to do so.

[fbaker4]

maybe someone will put it in the wiki? good countries to start with...

[Veldmaarschalk]

Stickyfied

Good starting countries in the 1066-scenario for me are

1. Duchy of Apulia
You start as Robert Guiscard de Hauteville, one of the strongest rulers in the Middle Ages. You start as duke of Apulia and Calabria. You also start with claims on the counties of Capua and Napoli. Once you have conquered Capua, you can create the duchy of Benevento.

Furthermore you are close to Sicily, which is divided between 3 small independent Sheiks, which means another easy conquest. Once you have taken Sicily, you can make yourself King of Sicily.

2. Duchy of Bohemia
You start as a vassal of the king of Germany, but once you have enough gold you can make yourself king of Bohemia. You also start with claims on the counties of Upper- and Lowersilesia. It is best to conquer these while you are still a vassal of Germany, since the king of Germany will help you in the war against Poland.

You also have 2 high-income provinces, Praha and Plzn. Which means you have a good income and those provinces can field large armies.

3. Kingdom of Poland
Your starting ruler is young with good stats. You also start with the best succession-law (IMHO) 'salic consanguinity'. To the north and north-east of you are the Baltic pagans, which means room to expand.

[Surgünoglu]

Irish county is nice. Really shows you the ropes.

But Denmark may be the best possible.

[Veldmaarschalk]

It would be nice (and more helpfull to a Noobie I guess) if people would also say the following things about their suggestions for a starting country

- The scenario
- Why is it a good starting country
- Possible strategy/goals
- Things you have to look out for when playing that specific country

[NicWester]

I like Savoy as a starter, personally. Nothing is given to you, so you have to earn your keep. This isn't bad, however, because earning it is fairly easy

--You start with two Counties (Piemonte and Savoie) and no claims. This provides a good challenge since nothing is really handed to you, unless...

--If you have a son, he'll have a decent chance of inheriting the Duchy of Aquitaine. This gives you an opportunity to become familiar with the joys of assassination =D Any time a male heir is born over there, it's your job to smite the little bugger.

--Though you start with no claims, you only need to take/vassalize Geneve or Valais before you're able to claim Duke of Savoy as a title. Problem is, these two areas are direct vassals of Germany, same as you, so you can't just Claim-Title-Declare-War. If Aquitaine isn't working out for you, then marrying into and fixing the inheritance of Geneve (Valias is a Bishophric) will hopefully be a little easier. Furthermore, eventually one of them may declare independence, in which case you Claim-Declare and march over...

Tips:
--Being stuck between France, Germany, and Genoa doesn't seem like the ideal situation, but you can make it work. The trick is to be opportunistic. Pledge yourself to France so you can get Geneve and/or Valais and become Duke of Savoy.

--Following the above, as Duke pledge yourself to whomever on an as-need basis. France is the Rojos, and Germany is the Baxters, Genoa is your Fistful of Dollars and you're The Man With No Name. Genoa has so much cash flowing through it that you *must* take it.

[Rowain]

Ironically, I just picked up Deus Vult to give CK a second chance (and glad I did now btw) and the first country I picked was the Welsh dukedom of Gwynedd. Then I come here and BAM, it's suggested by like the first 2-3 posts.

I echo the sentiments btw, I'm having a ball. Game is going fairly easily, but I'm roleplaying and having a blast playing a scheming, conniving, adultering family.

[Drachenfire]

It would be nice (and more helpfull to a Noobie I guess) if people would also say the following things about their suggestions for a starting country

- The scenario
- Why is it a good starting country
- Possible strategy/goals
- Things you have to look out for when playing that specific country

1066 Battle of Hastings start*
Only with Jord's DV Improvement Pack or More Kingdoms Mode, and Veld's Alternate Scenario mode. Only these scenarios have corrected Welsh dynasties and Geography.

Duchy of Gwynedd

Why start here? In a word: Challenge! The passionate Celtic Welsh fought tooth and nail to maintain their independent culture and way of life. Chose the Duchy of Gwynedd and see how long You can last against a powerful neighbor!

Gwynedd is a great starting location as the Mathrafal clan (pronounced Math-raval), represented by the Wolf of Wales Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, has consoldated his authority filling the power-vacuum following the death of his maternal half-brother King Gruffydd ap Llywelyn in 1063. Gwynedd has great economic potential if properly invested in. It is a bit far from the trade routes, and technology may not arrive as soon as it would in the Middle Sea.

Of a typical passionate nature, Bleddyn has many progeny of various skill levels that may be used to forge important diplomatic alliances across Europe! Many of his sons would make a great heir.

Stratigy: William of Normandy has just conqured the Anglo-Saxons. However, the Anglo-Saxons are not pleased with their dispossession and the great Northern Dukes of Northumbria and Mercia (Lancaster) are plotting to overthrow the Norman yoke. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn has allied with the Saxon Eric the Wild and the Duke of Northumbria and Mercia.

Use the pending rebellion by these Saxons as a cover to further extend Gwynedd's primacy in Wales by taking one of the south Welsh counties and proclaim Kingdom status.

Marry your sons to heiresses that will give you prestige, then use this prestige to take claims of the Marcher counties such as Chester, Hereford, and Shrewsbury. Expand there if they rebel against England.

You will need this as William will more often then not retake the north. By the time he has retaken control... your goal is to have expanded into a position of strength. Possibly take Man and Iceland.

Be weary of a protracted foreign war. Invest in Wales.

An alternate stratigy may include taking the duchy of Deheubarth from your Dinefwr cousins. If things with England get too hairy.... pledge to France for help and create an Auld Alliance akin to the Gallo-Scot Auld Alliance. Paris is further away then London, after all.

[Chilperic]

May I suggest England? Playing as England gives you a taste of how to deal with rebellious vassals, how to organise your realm, build a great dynasty, and you have easy targets for expansion in Wales, and later Ireland and Scotland.

[MKBullseye]

1066 Battle of Hastings start*
Only with Jord's DV Improvement Pack or More Kingdoms Mode, and Veld's Alternate Scenario mode. Only these scenarios have corrected Welsh dynasties and Geography.

Duchy of Gwynedd

Why start here? In a word: Challenge! The passionate Celtic Welsh fought tooth and nail to maintain their independent culture and way of life. Chose the Duchy of Gwynedd and see how long You can last against a powerful neighbor!

Gwynedd is a great starting location as the Mathrafal clan (pronounced Math-raval), represented by the Wolf of Wales Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, has consoldated his authority filling the power-vacuum following the death of his maternal half-brother King Gruffydd ap Llywelyn in 1063. Gwynedd has great economic potential if properly invested in. It is a bit far from the trade routes, and technology may not arrive as soon as it would in the Middle Sea.

Of a typical passionate nature, Bleddyn has many progeny of various skill levels that may be used to forge important diplomatic alliances across Europe! Many of his sons would make a great heir.

Stratigy: William of Normandy has just conqured the Anglo-Saxons. However, the Anglo-Saxons are not pleased with their dispossession and the great Northern Dukes of Northumbria and Mercia (Lancaster) are plotting to overthrow the Norman yoke. Bleddyn ap Cynfyn has allied with the Saxon Eric the Wild and the Duke of Northumbria and Mercia.

Use the pending rebellion by these Saxons as a cover to further extend Gwynedd's primacy in Wales by taking one of the south Welsh counties and proclaim Kingdom status.

Marry your sons to heiresses that will give you prestige, then use this prestige to take claims of the Marcher counties such as Chester, Hereford, and Shrewsbury. Expand there if they rebel against England.

You will need this as William will more often then not retake the north. By the time he has retaken control... your goal is to have expanded into a position of strength. Possibly take Man and Iceland.

Be weary of a protracted foreign war. Invest in Wales.

An alternate stratigy may include taking the duchy of Deheubarth from your Dinefwr cousins. If things with England get too hairy.... pledge to France for help and create an Auld Alliance akin to the Gallo-Scot Auld Alliance. Paris is further away then London, after all.

Ok so I just got the game today and decided to try this as a starting strategy. It went well in the beginning and I established myself as the King of Wales but after that things started to falter. I couldn't get enough prestige to make any title grabs and my kingdom just sort of stagnated. Any tips for how I should've handled it? What is the best way to approach expansion as a small-ish power?