T.H.E. Models

[anti_strunt]

1) Well, the StuGs were "artillery" in the same way that PaKs are "anti-tank artillery" or FlaKs are "anti-air artillery". The latest StuGs had effective ranges of 2 km or thereabouts; the Wepse 10 km+! I don't see how any comparison can be made beyond having vaguely similar designations.

Of course, as I've said, these differances are rather minor in a strategic game such as HoI, so they might as well be combined, although I still think they would be best represented as the separate beasts they were. Oh, well.

2) Well, that true, of course. However, you'll note that I only suggested the Hausch. in the context of a "pure" SPA list; once you remove all StuGs/Infanteriegeschutz, there aren't a lot of models to choose from, unfortunately. If StuGs et al. are included, well, then the picture obviously becomes very different. The same goes for the very similar Sd.Kfz. 165/1. Since no "pure" SPA were in production at that date, some sort of "fantasy" project was needed, and it was the best I could find.

3) Indeed. Which is exactly why I put the Grilles (hardly unrealistic projects; several prototypes had been made, a few of which may even have seen combat) as the models for '45/'47. I don't see why that should be so different from the Kügelblitz?

[anti_strunt]

OK, long post...

Alright, the problem isn't just that we obviously don't have any "historical" late-war models; since production of the StuG began only in January 1940, and the Wespe etc. even later; we don't have any "historical" models for the early war either!

Basically, out of 8 models, we can only pick truly historical models for 3 (three!) of those. The remaining 5 simply have to be "fantasy" models since there is no proper, historical alternative - although we could of course just pick some earlier model still in production for 1945, if we wanted to be boring.

With all that in mind, here is some food for though; not a finished list, just a listING of models, and the years I think most fitting for them...

Fantasy Models
(1936) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_0;Pz.Sfl.III
(1938) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_1;StuG A
(1939) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_2;StuG B / StuPz I Bison / Sd.Kfz.165/1

Historical Models
(1941) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_3;StuG E / StuIG 33
(1943) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_4;StuG G / Wespse / Hummel
---(1942) The missing year... StuG F, F/8, G, StuH 42
(1944) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_5;StuPz IV / Grille

Fantasy Models
(1945) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_6;Sturmtiger / Heuschrecke 10 / Grille 15
(1947) BRIG_MODEL_GER_2_7;Grille 42



Some explanations:

1936 - Pz.Sfl.III - Fantasy
Panzer Selbstfahrlafette III, as far as I can tell. Early StuG prototype - can't find any earlier suitable vehicles what-so-ever...

1938 - StuG A - Fantasy
Still 2 years before the first production StuGs, and there is still no good alternative.

1939 - StuG B / StuPz I Bison / Sd.Kfz.165/1 - "Fantasy"
Still a little while before the first StuGs, so we're still more or less in fantasy territory. The Sturmpanzer I is a conservative, 1940 choice, and so primitive it could easily have been made earlier. The Sd.Kfz.165/1 (the prototype forerunner of the Heuschrecke) is a radical choice, and could easliy be dropped or replaced by a StuG. But it was perhaps the worlds' first true SPA, a much earlier design than the Wespes/Hummel, and very advanced to boot. Since there is no historical 1939 option anyway, we might as well give this ahead-of-its time design a chance...
The StuG remains viable, though if we use the A for 1938 we might as well use the B for 1939...



1941 - StuG E / StuIG 33 - Historical
Now we are finally in historical territory. StuGs have been in production for a year already, and have reached Ausf. E... The StuIG 33 was produced from December 1941 IIRC, so could fit into this model year.

(1942) - Problem StuGs - StuG F, F/8, G, StuH 42
While it's hard to find real counterparts for the earliest models, we ironically don't have enough space for all the mid-war variants! Ideally it would be possible to show the evolution from the StuG E, to F, to F/8 and G, and to fit in the StuH 42 somewhere, but since all of those (except the E) appeared in 1942, where could we fit them all??
And what about the StuG IV?

1943 - StuG G / Wespe / Hummel - Historical
The problem here is that these two, our only real historical, proper SPA, were introduced at about the same time... The Wespe could of course be moved to an earlier date (or the Hummel to a later) to make it seem like you are "upgrading" to a heavier howitzer, but that would not be a correct representation of history as they were designed, produced and entered service at the same time, side by side.

1944 - StuPz IV / Grille - Historical
The StuPz IV was introduced, and the first produced, in 1943, but with the Wespe and Hummel already competeing for that spot I see no point in moving to an earlier model. The same goes for the Grille (the 38 (t) variant): though all Ausf. H and some Ausf. M were made in 1943, production continued till 1944.



1945 - Sturmtiger / Heuschrecke 10 / Grille 15 - Fantasy
OK, this is mostly speculation. Obviously only the Sturmtiger reached even limited production, but the Heuschrecke was a very impressive design (with roots going back to 1939), and the Grille 15 (15cm howitzer on Panther hull IIRC) was hardly unrealistic either.

1947 - Grille 17 / Grille 42 - Fantasy
Even more speculation, you could pretty much exchange these with the 1945 models at will. I simply picked these because they are heavier (Tiger II hulls with 17cm Kanone and 42cm GrW), so you would actually be "upgrading"... It's all speculation, after all.

[49h]

I'd like to add something i think important about models.

As Germany had a large advance in engineering during the war years, and because you all understand we canno't handle country specific attachments, i'd prefer to use the allied (UK, US) models as a base. Then, we'll change the german list with the good names. But please, try to decide which models are the most representative of SPA, TD, Art, etc... and at what time they were.

I also understand you'll need some 'fantasy' models for the late war. It's up to you to imagine what would have Germany produce in 45, 46, 47...

Anyway thank you for your help with designing this part of the game (i am far from being an axis specialist).

[Frank+Frei]

But do you think it's historic to take some projects for early war when even the OKW didn't like/build them?
And there is a reason why germany didn't build them in early years aswell:the capacity was needed to build tanks in first line.So I tend to let those models vacant for germany.
Maybe we can do a tag-split(like AA-MobAA)like BRIG_MODEL_2_0-4 for SpArt and BRIG_MODEL_2_5-9 for StuG's(think of the russians aswell)?
What are the russian models-solution thatfore?

[49h]

I'm not a russian specialist, so i don't know anything about russian stuff... Sorry.

I let FT decide about splitting model to allow specificity to germans Stug's.

[Fernando Torres]

We can't split them, we don't have enough available models.

I know quite nothing about that but as far as I read your suggestions, i just want to know that fantasy has to be implemented for post '45 but for the others years i'd prefer to focus in what was really used during the war.
But you both have the last decision of course.

[anti_strunt]

But do you think it's historic to take some projects for early war when even the OKW didn't like/build them?
And there is a reason why germany didn't build them in early years aswell:the capacity was needed to build tanks in first line.So I tend to let those models vacant for germany.

Well, not historical, of course, that's why I called it a "fantasy" choice, but certainly preferable to having blank names IMO... Since an important part of the game is allowing the player to direct research and development, I feel something should be there in case the player wanted to push for early SPA research (for whatever reason).

Maybe we can do a tag-split(like AA-MobAA)like BRIG_MODEL_2_0-4 for SpArt and BRIG_MODEL_2_5-9 for StuG's(think of the russians aswell)?
What are the russian models-solution thatfore?

We can't split them, we don't have enough available models.

But how many countries will actually ever use eight different models of "true" SPA? Especially for the pre-war years? Wouldn't something like...

Assault Gun '40
Assault Gun '42
Assault Gun '45
Assault Gun '47
(blank)
SPArtillery '41
SPArtillery '43
SPArtillery '45
SPArtillery '47

Be workable?

[Fernando Torres]

It won't.

[Frank+Frei]

I'm gonna make some changes in the SPArt models at the weekend,when I'm
done with the unitnames,and send it to FT.

BTW FT-Can you give me some further informations about airmodels?
a)how many planes are 1unit (regular+nav)
b)is NAVtag used for torpedobombers or navrecon
c)is ESCFgt used for 2engine fighters?

greets F+F

[Fernando Torres]

There is no naval-air unit done yet.

[Frank+Frei]

We're both talking about unitnames_csv or don't we?

[Fernando Torres]

Yeah.
Don't do naval/air unitnames yet.

[Frank+Frei]

OK,will leave my hands off.

[anti_strunt]

Frank+Frei, I think that our discussions, while fruitful (for me at least; I've gotten a chanse to revisit tons of old, interesting material), might be taking up a bit too much space considering the rather limited subject, so I'll leave it completely in your hands to decide upon what models to use. At first I only wanted to lend a hand because no-one had acted at the time, but now that more people are involved I feel that I am no longer needed - a good thing, because I won't have any free time over the coming weeks to contribute anything of value anyway.

Best of luck to you all, and good luck with the rest of the mod.

[Frank+Frei]

@anti-strunt-It's been fruitfull for me too,and I will include some of your models right after I'm done with the unitnames-file.Thanks for your help!

[Vladimir II]

I have found one member called Lord NIL, who worked on a Yugoslav mod before. He has given me his works, and agreed that I may use them. So, no I have completely finished YUG ground/air/naval models, and all following images. Tell me if you whish them, and I will send them to you, Fernando.

[Fernando Torres]

I do.

[49h]

In order to go further with the icons, i'd like to have some good advices, specially on cavalry unit. We've decided to expand the cavalry branch in the "stuff" tree, so we now have 2 mounted cavalry units, then 1 semi-mot. (motorbike), then 3 light-med armoured units, and at last 1 air cav unit.

I need help for the specific country models, for the 3 armoured ones ('41 - '44 - '47). It'll help me to find picture to realize the icons.

I've already done the brits and commonwealth icons, with :
'41 : Humber mk.II
'44 : Daimler AEC
'47 : Staghound mk.III

I may have done some mistakes, but this is only for the icons. Now i need your help for the US, GER, SOV, ITA, FRA, JAP...

I can propose this :

US - '41 ??? - '44 M8 Greyhound - '47 M38 Wolfhound (?)
GER - '41 SdKfz 222 - '44 SdKfz 234/2 Puma - '47 ???
SOV - '41 BA6 - '44 BA64B - '47 ???
ITA - '41 AB41 - '44 AB43 - '47 ???
FRA - '41 Panhard 178 - '44 M8 Greyhound - '47 Coventry mk.II
JAP - ???

So if you some knowledge about this, just let me know.