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Thread: How to simulate production correctly

  1. #1

    How to simulate production correctly

    This thread is for suggestions regarding the Production of the HOI series

    According to the suggestions this first post will be edited, and linked to the Armageddon Improvemt thread.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Updated 2/2-2008
    Having a limit on ships depending on Naval Bases is ok
    However arms, trucks and planes can be assembled in pretty much every every factory building, as long as its unused and has some space.

    So in simple terms: all that a good simulation needs, is penality for switching between productions.
    Nothing more and nothing less.
    You can produce as many planes as you want, if you assign enough resources to it.

    --- Argh... deleted most of my post while inserting list....----
    --- again... now written 3 hours----
    What we need:
    • Option to lenghten and shorten serial builds.
    • Builds should not be deleted automatically once they reach 0 serials left.
    • Add checkbox to control whether that production will be removed as soon as it finishes.
    • When selecting a new production show the retooling time and cost.
    • Once the production is approved, the retooling is started.
    • When retooling is finished the production will start, unless serial builds was 0.
    • All Production lines(used ort unused) should cost X.XX Consumer goods in upkeep.
    • When clicking on "delete production" once it will reduce serial to 1 and delete the line as soon as its finished. If serials = 0, delete instantly.
    • Clicking on "delete production" while "delete when finished" is active and serial builds = 1, will result in immideate closing.

    Nice to haves:
    • When selecting a production you can assign a new model once the current production is finished. Also add a checkbox in that window to show whether that is for all productions of that model.(switching from 39INF to 41 INF)
    • Options regarding production methods... choosing a higher automaton/assembly line level will decrease production time, but increase retooing time and cost dramatically.

    current example topics:
    Other ideas?
    Implementation?
    manpower training?
    Converting from one unit to another?
    Last edited by Lennartos; 03-02-2008 at 00:27.
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  2. #2
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Just to be different ( ) I suggest a completely different take using bases.

    Different 'flavours' of IC is too complex and not needed if we think of ICs as manufacturing the parts to be assembled at bases. Naval vessels need to be made at naval bases, air units at air bases and land units at supply centres (for simplicity - you might say have another 'military camp' base type, but I'm not totally convinced it's neccessary). Other unit types get built at the most appropriate base type - default being supply centre. To be eligible for building units (rather than just reinforcing or repairing) a province must have a supply centre in addition to any air or naval base needed.

    A base can only handle the building (or repair) of so many units at one time. The capacity is tied to the base size/level, the 'slots' a unit takes up depends on the unit (capital ships 2, screen flotillas 1, interceptors, fighters and CAS 1, Tac and naval bombers 2, Strat bombers 3, Inf and garrison 1, Mot, Mech etc. 2, Armour 3...).

    A unit must be assigned to a base when it is assigned to the production queue - it appears at the base when complete. This is no more management than currently needed, it just has to be done at the start instead of the end of production.

    The supply centre in the producing province must link to sufficient ICs to build all the units being produced in that province using TCs (see Logistics and Supply thread). Shortfalls will lengthen production times proportionately much as happens if insufficient ICs are allocated to production in the current case.

    Capturing a base with units in production may give access to part built units and/or blueprints.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Balesir
    Just to be different ( ) I suggest a completely different take using bases.
    Again we differ only marginally. Please read the first post again.

    Using airbases and SCs to limit production, might be simpler than having a new value, however im not convinced that that would have all the desired effects.
    Bases are cheap, and upkeep is free.. in real life a prepared and ready production line is not.
    Capturing bases would also destroy the balance.
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  4. #4
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, are you suggesting these 'production lines' instead of ICs, or in addition to ICs? I was assuming the former but upon re-reading it's not clear to me. My problem with the former from a 'realism' perspective is that many factories could and did make components for a diverse range of military hardware. Only a proportion of the equipment needed for production is specific to the object being manufactured...
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Balesir
    Just to be clear, are you suggesting these 'production lines' instead of ICs, or in addition to ICs? I was assuming the former but upon re-reading it's not clear to me. My problem with the former from a 'realism' perspective is that many factories could and did make components for a diverse range of military hardware. Only a proportion of the equipment needed for production is specific to the object being manufactured...
    by chance i have 2 min with internet here in norway... yes, its in addition to ic i meant... sorry to be unclear... ICs generate parts.
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  6. #6
    Colonel cumi's Avatar

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    What about my suggestion here?

  7. #7
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    by chance i have 2 min with internet here in norway... yes, its in addition to ic i meant... sorry to be unclear... ICs generate parts.
    Ah, OK! In that case, looking at your original list:

    Light equipment(Inf,Mtn,MOT)
    Heavy equipment(ARM,MECH,SP.AT)
    Aviation (Int,CAS,TAC,STR)
    Rocket (V1,V2,ICBM)
    Capital ship (CV,CVL,BB,HC..)
    Escort ship (DD,CL...)
    I wonder what we are gaining? The downside is clear - increased complexity/more 'objects' to worry about. If I compare this schema to using bases (in national provinces only, I would say as an addition), what do we gain?

    Your list divides Light from Heavy land units. I'm not sure that there is a huge difference in quality (as opposed to quantity), though, for the scale we are considering. Armoured batallions may have been very different from infantry batallions, but armoured divisions were in most cases mostly infantry... Sure, ARM have many more vehicles - and some of them are armoured - but the difference is not that great qualitatively. Saying ARM/MEC etc. require the same type of facility, but a big one, would seem to cover the essentials, to me.

    Dividing aircraft units from rockets - are the facilities for these really that different? The corporations involved are typically the same...

    Dividing capital from escort naval units. Apart from a bigger slipway and bigger cranage (and, obviously, bigger parts and more of them), what does building a battleship need that building a light cruiser doesn't? Perhaps more to the point, what stops you building a light cruiser on a slip designed for building a heavy cruiser? It seems to me that saying they all need to be built at a naval base and big ships need more room at a big enough base would cover it, no?

    Now, I realise that 'bases' don't necessarily comprise the same sites, facilities and so on that the manufacturing facilities we are attempting to model do, but I do think that (1) they are generally closely associated with these facilities and (2) using them to represent these manufacturing facilities in addition to their 'baseline' facilities is an acceptable abstraction/approximation that simplifies game play compared to modelling each facility separately.

    Cumi: Your suggestion is basically very similar to Lennartos', with the addition of 'expertise' levels for manufacturing facilities (please correct me if I'm reading it wrong). The idea of 'better places' to build certain units is a nice one, even though it adds complexity. I think it could be used with bases as well as with separate manufacturing sites, though - and I can see some interesting scope for having both 'manufacturing teams' and 'tech teams' associated with specific bases (and capturable, possibly with 'damage'). Maybe rather than a tech team slot per 20 IC a nation gets one for each base with 20+ IC connected to it, and a team per IC of a type appropriate to the base it is closest to??
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  8. #8
    Hmmm, lets take this one step at a time then..

    There should be a limit on assignable IC somewhere, that much is clear... so let us put aside how the limit is calculated for a moment and concentrate on the dividing factors in the industry.( what should be the end result)

    We have:
    Small Arms - includes rifles, mortars etc. important limitations: none...very easy manufacturing.
    Vehicles - includes trucks,mechs,armour...important limitations: suspension, gears, engines
    Aircraft - important limitations: engines and high grade, low weight steel.
    Rocktes - only important factor is the engine and that is pretty simple..
    Ships - important limitations: ship sizes are humongus and require construction sites...

    So limitations are important when considering:
    Vehices,Aircraft and ships.

    So far so good, or does anyone have a different opinion, or any additions?
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  9. #9
    The more i think of it, the more complicated the system is.
    But the simulation system is just about right...

    Lets take shipbuilding for an example:
    1) If germany wants a grand Ship building program, then they must expand their drydocks capacity. (compared to what they else build that is nothing)
    2) ready drydocks can be taken into action after about 2 weeks, after construction of a ship has been decided.(some parts must arrive first).

    The same applies to all other productions.
    the question is how to simulate that fact.
    Using "assembly lines" is not too far off, but some seperations where artificial, yes.

    One thing to remember is that the limiting factor is expandable.
    Once the drydocks have been build they can be used again and again, even after months of inactivity. All you have to do is to assign IC and manpower to produce ships.

    So how do we store the amount of drydocks build? ( the current capacity)
    do we:
    1) use buildable objects (in this vase nabal bases.. would require new ones for aircraft & land..).. this would need balancing regarding conquered bases.
    A simple solution was to limit production to domestic (core) bases.
    2) Use counters/variables seen on the production screen.

    And how should the limit be calculated?...
    should it be on a amount of unit producable(max 5 ships), or IC limit assignable(max 10IC)?
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  10. #10
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    So how do we store the amount of drydocks build? ( the current capacity) do we:
    1) use buildable objects (in this vase nabal bases.. would require new ones for aircraft & land..).. this would need balancing regarding conquered bases.
    A simple solution was to limit production to domestic (core) bases.
    Yep - core bases makes sense.

    Considering that aircraft assembly could be done in hangars or any large, robust building - and that part of the 'assembly' of the unit is the ground crew equipment and organisation of all personnel - it seems to me that Air Bases would be appropriate for air unit assembly.

    For land units what is needed is vehicle assembly lines/shops and barracks. This might be the most appropriate area to ask if an extra base type is needed, but given the widespread distribution of barracks and factories suitable for adaptation to vehicle assembly I still think that using Supply Centres in core provinces would be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    2) Use counters/variables seen on the production screen.
    With this method how would you allow for capture/destruction by enemy action? You could just have damage whenever ICs were damaged, but that means key facilities are not targettable. It's simple, but it doesn't meet all the design objectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    And how should the limit be calculated?...
    should it be on a amount of unit producable(max 5 ships), or IC limit assignable(max 10IC)?
    Dry dock/slipway space is in number and size of ship, not quantity of parts. Aircraft assembly and organisation is by number and size of air groups (roughly), not complexity of aircraft. Land units is broadly by number of men. So I think the limits should be X slots of the base size (1-10) taken up by each unit. What exactly 'X' is needs to be decided for each unit (and becomes an attribute in the 'divisions' and 'brigades' files, so modders can play with them!).
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  11. #11
    Ok... i have been writing around for 2 Hours on this post, and i think i have sorted it out in my head:

    Having a limit on ships depending on Naval Bases is ok
    However arms, trucks and planes can be assembled in pretty much every every factory building, as long as its unused and has some space.

    So in simple terms: all that a good simulation needs, is penality for switching between productions.
    Nothing more and nothing less.
    You can produce as many planes as you want, if you assign enough resources to it.

    --- Argh... deleted most of my post while inserting list....----
    --- again... now written 3 hours----
    What we need:
    • Option to lenghten and shorten serial builds.
    • Builds should not be deleted automatically once they reach 0 serials left.
    • Add checkbox to control whether that production will be removed as soon as it finishes.
    • When selecting a new production show the retooling time and cost.
    • Once the production is approved, the retooling is started.
    • When retooling is finished the production will start, unless serial builds was 0.
    • All Production lines(used ort unused) should cost X.XX Consumer goods in upkeep.
    • When clicking on "delete production" once it will reduce serial to 1 and delete the line as soon as its finished. If serials = 0, delete instantly.
    • Clicking on "delete production" while "delete when finished" is active and serial builds = 1, will result in immideate closing.

    Nice to haves:
    • When selecting a production you can assign a new model once the current production is finished. Also add a checkbox in that window to show whether that is for all productions of that model.(switching from 39INF to 41 INF)
    • Options when choosing production on education level of unit. (force production/normal/above average/elite) Higher education will cost more IC, but give units a headstart in exp.
    • Options regarding production methods... choosing a higher automaton/assembly line level will decrease production time, but increase retooing time and cost dramatically.
    Last edited by Lennartos; 31-01-2008 at 23:58.
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  12. #12
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Nice list!

    I still think that air and ground units should take space at the respective bases, because the personnel have to be assembled and trained with their equipment somewhere and this is quite a complex part of the unit 'production'. From the player perspective I really don't think this is a big deal - you just choose where the unit will appear as you add it to the production queue rather than when it pops out the end of the production line!

    Apart from that I think you have it nailed - the only item I'm not in full agreement with is the 'extra IC for elite units' - could you explain how that would work??
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  13. #13
    getting enough sleep for once does wonders

    Quote Originally Posted by Balesir
    the personnel have to be assembled and trained with their equipment somewhere and this is quite a complex part of the unit 'production'.
    Normally the training is never done with the actual hardware.
    When you approve a production, training will be started and weapons will be produced.
    At some point the weapons are ready, but that doesnt have anything to do with the training.
    And just before they leave the academy they are assigned the real weapons.(a division is formed using the new educated personell and fresh equipment)


    Quote Originally Posted by Balesir
    'extra IC for elite units' - could you explain how that would work??
    Was just a thoght... its not the right way to do it...
    but its quite simple: give the personell a longer/better eductaion... some extra time/cost for some exp.
    and the other way around: force units out.. shorter build time, but lower start exp.



    Training soldiers/officers takes time...
    A soldier who used 1-2 years in training is much more dangerous than a civilian with 30 days of shooting practice under his belt.
    Somehow the production should be seperated from the eductaion of soliers.(gearing bonus?)
    Any ideas?
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  14. #14
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    Training soldiers/officers takes time...
    A soldier who used 1-2 years in training is much more dangerous than a civilian with 30 days of shooting practice under his belt.
    Somehow the production should be seperated from the eductaion of soliers.(gearing bonus?)
    Any ideas?
    Actually, yes . I don't have much time right now, but look at the threads here and here.
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  15. #15
    Ok

    Things wanted in those threads:
    1)re-equipping old divisions to become more "modern" (inf->mot)
    2)Better unit simulation. split STR into more components.


    Thoughts:
    1)
    What is the difference between INF and MOT?
    And MOT and ARM?
    Just the equipment?
    If yes, then why are we researching it in different branches?
    Should there only be a INF and ARM branch?
    (as the combination would result in above?)
    ---- would really like if someone with more knowledge would give a hint here ----
    If the above is correct, the lets scap the current system, and replace it with a multi brigade system.
    INF = INF
    INF + Horses = CAV
    INF + Trucks = MOT
    INF + Trucks + Tanks = ARM
    INF + HalfTracks = MECH

    You can build any combination you like, some options are mutually exclusive(like horses and Trucks)
    They still show as CAV/MOT/ARM/MECH on the pictures and map, but you can add and remove brigades to change status. ( basically a real make your own division).

    2)
    Tough one... it should not be too complex...
    Right now i can see following bars:
    Manpower... includes rifles and small fighting gear.
    Equipment:...(heavy equipment +horses/trucks/half-trucks/tanks) affects speed & firepower
    Additional Brigades... (TD,SPA,AA,ART) - extra firepower
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  16. #16
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    Thoughts:
    1)
    What is the difference between INF and MOT?
    And MOT and ARM?
    Just the equipment?
    If yes, then why are we researching it in different branches?
    Should there only be a INF and ARM branch?
    (as the combination would result in above?)
    The differences in training and personnel between INF, MOT and MECH (depending how you view them - MECH didn't really come in divisions'...) was small and divisions were in several cases switched from one to the other. The main differences were (a) fighting equipment, which tended to be lighter to allow faster movement in MOT and (b) transport equipment, which was much more plentifully supplied in MOT, with INF having transport for artillery and other heavy equipment and for logistical support (i.e. the bit we have been talking about for the 'final SC to unit' link in the 'Supply'thread).

    The split research I think is fairly valid - substantially different equipment is required in several areas. Such equipment was often usefully employed by INF divisions, too, but it was not necessary to them in the way it was for MOT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    If the above is correct, the lets scap the current system, and replace it with a multi brigade system.
    INF = INF
    INF + Horses = CAV
    INF + Trucks = MOT
    INF + Trucks + Tanks = ARM
    INF + HalfTracks = MECH
    Close, but I would say:
    • Infantry division personnel + INF equipment + basic transport (horse, mule, amphibious, truck or porter) = INF
    • Infantry division personnel + MOT equipment + extended transport (amphibious or truck) = MOT
    • Infantry division personnel + MOT equipment + extended transport (armoured) = MEC
    • Cavalry division personnel + CAV equipment + extended transport (horse) = CAV
    • Armoured division personnel + ARM equipment + extended transport (truck or armoured) = ARM
    • Marine division personnel + MAR equipment + basic transport (amphibious, mule or porter) = MAR
    • Mountain division personnel + MTN equipment + basic transport (mule, porter, horse, amphibious or truck) = MTN
    • Parachute division personnel + ABN equipment + basic transport (airborne) = PAR
    Plus I may have missed a few. Elite divisions could operate with non-specific equipment, but could not carry out their specialist tasks - they would be high morale INF, basically. Likewise, Infantry could use specialist gear, but would get none of the benefits in terms of special missions or terrain bonuses. The type of transport element used would determine how terrain was treated for the purposes of length of supply line to the source SC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    You can build any combination you like, some options are mutually exclusive(like horses and Trucks)
    They still show as CAV/MOT/ARM/MECH on the pictures and map, but you can add and remove brigades to change status. ( basically a real make your own division).
    The only other 'brigades' I see being needed would be special equipment attachments for sepcialist missions - gliders for airlandings, landing craft for beach landings (I think this would be a better option than the current 'transports' representation, in fact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    2)
    Tough one... it should not be too complex...
    Right now i can see following bars:
    Manpower... includes rifles and small fighting gear.
    Equipment:...(heavy equipment +horses/trucks/half-trucks/tanks) affects speed & firepower
    Additional Brigades... (TD,SPA,AA,ART) - extra firepower
    I don't really see why the different elements need to be kept track of separately regarding STR. Just have trickleback for MP but not for equipment or transport and it should be fine.

    For 'brigade attachments', if they are required at all, I would prefer a 'build your own divisions out of brigades' system, with each 'division' consisting of 1-5 brigades.
    Balesir.
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  17. #17
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    I forgot to say that another reason to tie land and air units to a specific base is that otherwise even the continent on which the unit is being built is not fixed! The current 'only build on land contiguous with the capital' is really quite broken for nations with overseas posessions - the Indian Army has to be built in Britain, for goodness' sake! Building at bases both fixes this and allows for units in construction to be captured/disbanded by swift enemy advances.
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  18. #18
    Ok...

    For 'brigade attachments', if they are required at all, I would prefer a 'build your own divisions out of brigades' system, with each 'division' consisting of 1-5 brigades.
    look at this:
    You can build any combination you like, some options are mutually exclusive(like horses and Trucks)
    They still show as CAV/MOT/ARM/MECH on the pictures and map, but you can add and remove brigades to change status. ( basically a real make your own division).
    I agree
    But lets finish this first.

    So personell is just about the same, only equipment differs.
    That means we have:
    INF + Basic equipment ( horses/mules) = INF
    INF + Cavalary equipment = CAV
    INF + Motorized equipment = MOT
    INF + Motorized equipment + Tank brigade = ARM
    INF + Basic equipment + Tank brigade = slower ARM?
    INF + Mechanized equipment = MECH
    The equipment and the transport are tied together..

    An extra landing craft brigade is a good idea... You can only invade if you have that brigade, should it be destroyed by usage?

    Edit: regarding the separation of manpower and equipment:
    When a CAS group oblitterate a singe ARM division.. the tanks,trucks and artillery are destroyed, but most of the personell are still alive.(Equipment damage)
    Just the opposite on a trench war... people die.... but their guns can be reused again and again.(manpower damage)
    Besides, manpower is pretty much IC free... heavy equipment is not.

    When selling a divison to another country it should not be 1STR as that would cost pretty much the same to reinforce than to build a new one.
    It should however be 100% equipment and 0% manpower.

    The manpower refresh rate could be determined by education level. ( or standing/drafted slider for now... and remove production bonus for those)
    I have also been speculating about making all newly produced divisions 100% equipment and low manpower(depending on education level and production time) when they are produced.
    Explanation: when production is started, the eductaion is started..
    Full drafted : 2 Months @ 100% MP... 70% exp.
    Balanced: 4 Months @ 100% MP... 100% exp.
    Standing Army: 8 Months @ 100%MP... 125% exp.
    The slider should be more felxible, so that one can switch the education level.

    So a drafted INF army(INF prod. time = 60 days) will be 100% ready when deployed while a standing army division would be 20% ready when deployed.
    Last edited by Lennartos; 05-02-2008 at 10:37.
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

  19. #19
    AoD's Old Geezer Balesir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    Ok...

    look at this:

    I agree
    I know - I was agreeing with you!

    I just thought that, with talking about having manpower separate from equipment, it might look like 'building your own division' was not compatible, but that wasn't what I meant at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    But lets finish this first.

    So personell is just about the same, only equipment differs.
    That means we have:
    INF + Basic equipment ( horses/mules) = INF
    INF + Cavalary equipment = CAV
    INF + Motorized equipment = MOT
    INF + Motorized equipment + Tank brigade = ARM
    INF + Basic equipment + Tank brigade = slower ARM?
    INF + Mechanized equipment = MECH
    The equipment and the transport are tied together..
    OK - minor quibble but CAV require extra training, so INF + Cavalry gear <> CAV - but CAV + Basic gear (instead of Cavalry gear) maybe = INF.

    Separate tank brigade I like.

    Combining 'heavy equipment' and 'transport' I'm still not sure, because:
    • INF + basic gear (but no transport) = GAR.
    • I see this as a method for better modelling and simplifying both arms trading and upgrades. If units can upgrade just the equipment part (i.e. can separate the equipment part from the manpower part) then upgrades and arms sales can leave the manpower section of the army untouched. Trade and upgrades of 'fighting equipment' and transport are typically separate.
    • Many possibilities for transport exist - bicycles, mules (better in mountains than horses), horses (with carts and waggons), trucks, porters/handcarts, amphibious vehicles (DUKWs etc.), elephants...
    • Equipment may in some cases be adjudged close enough to be interchangeable. CAV and MOT, for example, I would think have much the same 'fighting gear' - they differ basically in transport element. PAR, MAR and MTN may have substantially the same gear as MOT or INF except when prepared for a specialised mission.

    Contrary to what I originally thought way back, I think armoured vehicles have to be counted as 'fighting equipment' rather than transport - it's what they were primarily intended for, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    An extra landing craft brigade is a good idea... You can only invade if you have that brigade, should it be destroyed by usage?
    Good question - they were reused sometimes, but losses in a landing were expected to be pretty ferocious. I would say no - otherwise island hopping becomes tedious and overly expensive, and part of the preparation for D-Day involved shipping landing craft from Italy to Britain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    Edit: regarding the separation of manpower and equipment:
    When a CAS group oblitterate a singe ARM division.. the tanks,trucks and artillery are destroyed, but most of the personell are still alive.(Equipment damage)
    Just the opposite on a trench war... people die.... but their guns can be reused again and again.(manpower damage)
    Besides, manpower is pretty much IC free... heavy equipment is not.
    Good points. I suppose I just see it as complication that's not strictly required, but it could be pretty non-intrusive to the player, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    When selling a divison to another country it should not be 1STR as that would cost pretty much the same to reinforce than to build a new one.
    It should however be 100% equipment and 0% manpower.
    Yes - it's pretty essential to my conception that the elements should be seperable. This gives lots of possibilities:
    • Upgrades are more explicit - units must be pulled from the line to upgrade (has to go to an SC and swap) and the choice of 'upgrade or new unit' is more flexible.
    • Veteran and elite units can be uprated from INF to MOT or MECH (or can just swap their transport from horse to truck, say) without losing their experience.
    • Old equipment can be given to second line/defence/inexperienced units.
    • Arms trading becomes sale of just the equipment (and transport) elements, not the manpower elements.
    • Units can be equipped specifically for the climate zones or missions they are assigned to - even INF can be given amphibious transport for jungle warfare or mules for mountain warfare, improving their logistical range from their source SC.
    • Equipment can be stockpiled prior to war breaking out, ready for the expansion of the army.
    • Equipment - especially transport, which does not have issues of ammo compatibility - can be captured from the enemy and used.
    • The training of the manpower can be separated from the equipment production.

    It adds some complexity to do it this way, but it fixes sooo many issues that I think it's worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lennartos
    The manpower refresh rate could be determined by education level. ( or standing/drafted slider for now... and remove production bonus for those)

    <snippage>

    So a drafted INF army(INF prod. time = 60 days) will be 100% ready when deployed while a standing army division would be 20% ready when deployed.
    I rather like the idea in another thread, where instead of draft/standing slider you just either keep peacetime forces or not. You can train/hold exercises for troops in peacetime; it costs supplies, money and oil but the troops gain exp for it. All troops' exp decays slowly with time (taking years), so maintaining good quality standing units costs you resources. Gain for exercises is on an exponential curve - so with lots of exercises you get diminishing returns. 'Training Exercises' would just be an extra order type you could give a force, like 'Anti-Partisan Duty' etc.
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  20. #20
    Tried to make a list of possibilitys with transport brigades, but it just gets too compicated to make it usable.
    You had 8 different transport brigades in your example alone. then the user needs to learn what is interchangeable and what is not and so on..

    What good is MOT equipment witout the mobility of trucks?Its just a worse basic equipment.
    How would you drag heavy AA with bicycles?
    What would a mechanized mountaineer brigade look like?

    So lets just keep it siple, and not go down that road. (K.I.S.S.)

    here is a short list of usable options:

    1)We use Manpower + brigades:
    MP = Militia (using scrapped/old weapons)
    MP + Static equipment = GAR
    MP + Basic equipment = INF
    MP + Cavalary equipment = CAV
    MP + Motorized equipment = MOT
    MP + Mechanized equipment = MECH
    MP + Light equipment = MTN
    MP + Light equipment = MTN
    MOT + Tank brigade = ARM
    INF + Tank brigade = slow ARM.

    2)we use hybrid with old system:
    MIL = MIL
    GAR = GAR
    INF = INF
    INF + Trucks br. = MOT
    INF + Mech br. = MECH
    INF + Trucks br. + ARM = ARM
    PAR = PAR
    .....
    "Any third-rate engineer or researcher can increase complexity; but it takes a certain flair of real insight to make things simple again." - E.F.Schumacher.

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