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Thread: The Setting Sun - Gotterdammerung, Japan 1944.

  1. #4321
    Remble: Thank you for the Operation Enlightment =)

    About the CTF: sink 3 of them and then try to invade Samoa. Or bomb a few of the CV's and after the rest of them leaves the harbour invade it and see if the AI changes tactics. Since those carriers are out of the war by just sitting there anyway, why not try to lure them back to a more offensive path?

  2. #4322
    Captain thatguy's Avatar

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    I say just bomb them into nothing. If you want to add a bit of risk to get rid of the gameyness maybe you could launch a port strike from your brand new carriers
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  3. #4323
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    I'd invade it or edit in a port.

    Also, I first read "Admiral Stark" as "Admiral Stack" which I found quite amusing, given the huge array of carriers there.
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  4. #4324
    Quote Originally Posted by Remble View Post
    2. Sink everything until it leaves.
    Bomb them. If they keep sitting there like lame ducks, you can decide in-game that you do not tolerate the strength losses on you bombers (and you will incure losses) and stop the bombing after a few carriers.

    5. Other options open to discussion.
    The AI thinks there is a naval base, although there isn't, right? Others have already mentioned that you could edit in a port, but would removing the 1756 from the base line in the admiral section of the USA part in the saved game be a simpler approach, telling the USA that there is, in fact, no naval base there?

  5. #4325
    First of all I would like to commend you on the excellent strategic campaign you have been running as well as the informative and intriguing updates. I started reading your AAR for the Germany version of this scenario almost a year ago and have been hooked ever since. Well done.

    Concerning the Samoa conundrum I would opt to edit the game and add a port to the island of whatever size is used by the other scenarios. If this is not a permissible action under your rule book then an island invasion to flush them out would be the sufficiently competitive option. Bombing them while they are in port or letting them sit there forever trying in vane to repair would be simply too mundane.

    As an off topic question I am curious as to why you chose to research more in the branch of synthetic oil refining. Japan's primary resource concern is energy and without having double the amount of stockpiled energy as oil then this research would not pay any dividends in the near or medium future.

  6. #4326
    I hope you choose option four for a while. If the AI gets pig-headed and leaves the carriers in the (port) for too long, and the game starts to drag because of it, then go ahead and do something aggressive about it.

    Great read, as always.

    -- Beppo

  7. #4327
    Back from moderation hell midget_roxx's Avatar
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    I say bomb the carriers considering that the US shouldn't even have those carriers as they upgraded them when they were producing.

  8. #4328
    I vote for editing. Either edit a naval base for Samoa or edit the base out of the AI-file. This is the only way to solve the problem in a reliable and plausible way.
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  9. #4329
    Option no 4 and editing.

  10. #4330
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    Option 4 sounds sensible but it will lead to a huge American fleet sitting around and contributing absolutely nothing to the AAR and to our enjoyment ... which is intolerable.

    So a permanent solution is required and in this regard I prefer invasion to editing. If you edit the game, you will be forced, sooner than later, to invade Samoa to remove another harbor close to your territory. However then you would need to remove the harbor, since it's presence would be gamey.

    On the other hand, you might realized that the US-AI will do anything to regain their "port" in Samoa. If this should be the case, I suggest building a harbor, once you control the island. If the US then recaptures Samoa, they will have their harbor and you can rest assured that it was paid for. Then you can invade again (or not), lather, rinse, repeat.

    Attacking the carriers would be to gamey, since they will be sunk, sooner or later and will not be able to repair. Your losses would be great but probably worth it. Not attacking would be much more sensible, since you conserve manpower, experience and you will give the US AI to do something worthwhile with their carriers.

    So my preferred solutions in short:
    1) Invasion
    2) Editing (adding a harbor)
    3) Patrolling without attacking the port
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  11. #4331
    Second Lieutenant Black Watch's Avatar

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    Re: Carrier Superstack

    I've been waiting for this moment. Speak of the devil...I had just mentioned the US 10-CV fleet, and voila!

    I'd go with option 2. I know the US AI thinks Samoa is a port, though it isn't. And so if it decides to "base" ships there, it will keep them there until they're "repaired" - effectively, forever. So it might be gamey to attack them there. But editing in itself is gamey, in my opinion, even if it's "anti-gamey" in this case. (get my drift? )

    Besides, as midget_roxx pointed out, human players don't have a monopoly on gaminess. The AI can upgrade under construction, has no fog of war, and has unlimited range. And you're playing on VH. You will take losses.

    In any case, would the Emperor, seeing the entire US Pacific Carrier fleet at anchor in Samoa, say "Let us leave them alone, for to attack them there is gamey and against the tenets of bushido?"

  12. #4332
    Great AAR - I've been in deep lurk reading this for a long time, and it's my all-time favorite.

    I vote for:

    1) invasion if at all possible
    2) editing the AI files so it knows Samoa isn't a port (if that can be done)
    3) editing to add a port

  13. #4333
    I am the Law Sokraates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opaqueice
    2) editing the AI files so it knows Samoa isn't a port (if that can be done)
    I checked thr USA_1944.ai file and found this interesting entry:

    naval_base = yes
    max_naval_base = 10
    naval_base_provs = {
    1756 # Samoa
    }
    Strangely enough, that's the only explicit "naval_base"-entry I see.

    However editing the above, I don't know if deleting the entry would help, probably won't be enough. Additionally the "target" value would have to be reduced from 3000 to 50 (which is what every non-critical provice has).

    Then there is an entry, telling he AI which provinces to use as bases. Samoa, of course is included and has to be removed.

    All of the entries can be easily found by searchin for the province-ID 1756.

    While the solution proposed by opaqueice would be the most elegant, there wouldunfortunately be a lot of editing involved which is always risky.
    ReadAAR of the Mongol Week 30.10.2009 - 01.12.2009 in Thundergate's hilarious "The WRAITH of KHAN! All AARe mine!" (long week, wasn't it?)

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  14. #4334
    Invasion as a first solution is just suicide.

    Invasion should be considered only when all fleets have left.

  15. #4335
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    If you will edit, the best solution would be to move the flotilla to the east coast, and then add a port on Samoa.

    If you don't want to edit, the best solution is 3 and 4.
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  16. #4336
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    well i'm back of my hols!!!! and only 1 update, i can manage that

    i say attack the sea lanes.

    develop the nuke and hit the port as a "test" lol

    na option 4 i think
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  17. #4337
    I like the invasion option best. Else destroy the fleet, it's scary

    Damn Remble I've been moving and had little time to keep reading... took me almost 2 weeks of irregular reading to catch up with your writing again... so many moments I'd liked to have commented on what I read but I was like 6 pages behind.

    /Krogzar
    Originally Posted by Remble in his AAR The Setting Sun - Gotterdammerung, Japan 1944. (Writer missing in action)

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    "Oh I forgot. The Pacific is a large body of water. We own it. No one is trying to dispute that fact." Tanigawa answered with a grin.
    "I am so glad I asked. Please continue Minister Satoru."


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  18. #4338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krogzar View Post

    Damn Remble I've been moving and had little time to keep reading... took me almost 2 weeks of irregular reading to catch up with your writing again... so many moments I'd liked to have commented on what I read but I was like 6 pages behind.
    I completely agree with this, almost to the letter; a lapsed member of the Church of Remble. It has taken *such* a long time to catch-up!

    So much to comment on, but I shall be brief. It is excellent to see the brilliant crimson lines of advance the High Command is having fun painting on the large maps of Russia. My favourite moments are still strangely whenever a new ship is launched...all that bunting and champagne... I also would opt for a Pearl Harbour-style attack on Samoa. Who says history never repeats?
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  19. #4339
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    I say you should first add the port.
    Then, bringing all the spare aircraft to the area, launch a full scale attack at Samoa in roughly ten days(think of it as organizing).

  20. #4340
    Firstly I would like to thank you all for your responses to the Samoa problem. Many ways to handle a situation certainly and most of you are probably aware of what I would want to do given my tactics and rules. I will respond to non related comments and then go into detail about what will happen with Samoa.

    Maj. von Mauser, Thurak - My Armoured spearhead is almost better than the Soviets now

    genbrad - Given the current American Carrier doctrines even my Battleship fleet would lose even in ideal conditions.

    RioBrancoBaron - Your welcome and thank you for providing the name

    Kanil - For this AAR that is certainly one huge Carrier stack

    MCG_Man - Thank you and welcome to both the boards and this AAR even though you have been lurking for a very long time

    I am researching the Oil Conversion techs to get to the Material Science techs that follow. These will boost my IC quite a lot and I might even need the conversion tech as well.

    Black Watch - Amazing how these things happen. Coincidences with comments seem to be running high lately

    opaqueice - Thank you and welcome aboard

    Reado - Welcome back. You didn't miss much and I didn't get mobbed so that is a fair result

    Krogzar - I hope your move went well and welcome back to waiting for updates

    Ruodnane - Thank you and welcome back. Russia is going fairly well for now

    And so we come to Samoa. I will cover the options and why I won't do some things but will do others.

    1. Edit a port or move the fleet and edit. I won't edit. I don't like to edit when there are in game solutions and I also do not like altering the game code which could make it not work for people wishing to use a save.

    2. Blow them to pieces. An obvious choice and there are good enough reasons to do it. I can do it without a doubt and it would be costly as has been pointed out. Unfortuantely my ground rules prohibit my destroying these ships even if they are cheating as well. An AI exploit of this kind is just too large for me to legitimately consider when there are choices.

    3. Invade. Very risky and maybe impossible given that the AI knows where my fleets are at all times. It does solve the problem once and for all if the AI doesn't take it back.

    4. Constant patrols around the island. Even this could be considered gamey as I would know exactly when they leave which would allow my bombers to pursue them regardless. I don't think anyone actually expects me to engage these fleets with my own and they will all probably be sunk by aircraft anyway. If I let them out they do at least have some chance.

    5. The fleets might leave of their own accord. Some have done it before so it is a possibility. Remote but possible.

    I think that covers the options and reasoning leads me to the following approach:

    1. The Emperor will decide that the island is too well defended to bomb. He will order patrols around the island to detect enemy fleets and I will chase them if they leave.

    2. My secret operations included the invasion of Samoa. Why and when that was being planned I will cover at the time of the attempt or attempts, if they go ahead. Suffice to say I had assets moving to invade and they are still moving that way. The detection of the US Carrier fleet does alter my timing considerably and greatly increases the risks.

    So option 4 with a probably invasion is the current choice of action. This prevents exploiting the AI and preserves my airforce which would have suffered very high losses if I attacked. Pulling off a successful invasion might not be possible but this is War after all.

    Update to follow ...

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