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Thread: The Setting Sun - Gotterdammerung, Japan 1944.

  1. #3461
    Actually, a modern navy is rather a disadvantage than an advantage. The most important factor in naval combat is numbers. The more ships you get, the better you are. This make CAs very powerful but naval research pretty useless (except for CAGs). A modern BB will cost a lot more than an old one but wont be strong enough to justify the costs. He should rather build more CA4s/BB4s than SHBB2
    A comparison of CAs, BBs and SHBBs

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  2. #3462
    Sergeant Felkethar's Avatar

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    I've heard this before, but in my personal experiance, even with large numbers of CA's in a fleet (including CVLs for ranging), they never come off well against battleships or CVs, even the older versions of CVs or BBs. A note I also am still using DD, like Remble. On the other hand I can go on a rampage with only a handful of more modern ships even against thier modern brethern. *shrug*

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  4. #3464
    Finn/Turk! OneArmed's Avatar
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    Congrats on the annexation and good to read about the naval battle.

    One question, did the UK re-instate Oman or Yemen again?

  5. #3465
    Hijo de Santiago robou's Avatar
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    And now for more Soviet lambs to the slaughter...


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  6. #3466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmie0307
    Ahh...I saw that you encountered the Soviet Pacific Submarine Fleet...or what they call those WWI cruisers from the Imperial Fleet of Russia ( ) and some new ones of course...from the year 1938 (?)... too bad you did not finish them off....
    Tim
    Are you thinking of the Second Pacific Squadron from the Russo-Japanese War? I've stretched tenuous mentions of it a few times before, I believe. Their long and tragic-comical tale is my favourite naval story.

    But anyway, they certainly were some very exciting naval battles, far from the home theatres of all involved - who would have though it! While worried at the very high cost, I retain every faith in the commanders, men and ships of the I.J.N. (and their Air Arm...). Thinking on it, you still have eliminated every other national navy from being a threat, most notably the R.N., and your fleets must cover a huge area with the U.S. Navy simply showing up anywhere and spoiling for a fight.

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  7. #3467
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    I enjoyed the meeting of enemies. Seems to me that they are trying to blame one another for being incapable of stopping you
    Those naval battles were really action packed as well as telling. You desperatly need some new ship or better doctrine. However I am sure you will handle the situation.

  8. #3468
    The Goldmattress Mattabesta's Avatar
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    two words: MOAR CARRIERS

  9. #3469
    Field Marshal Nathan Madien's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattabesta
    two words: MOAR CARRIERS
    I think that is easier said than done.
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  10. #3470
    Tier 1 minion elbasto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattabesta
    two words: MOAR CARRIERS
    And what about CAGs?

    AHA! Where is your god now?!



    Good luck Remble. Although due to your overwhelming advantage in positioning (islands and such) the most critical campaign at this point is against the USSR, I am looking foward to the second naval showdown! I am sure you can't wait to free those air groups...

  11. #3471
    The american carriers were sunk, but the commander gains experience. Next year the USN will have modern carriers with skilled commanders. Those carriers grouped with modern destroyers are strong and fast. So don't underestimate the USN.

  12. #3472
    academic outlaw Moderator safferli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felkethar
    Unfortunatly even when the CAGs do mondernize, the defensive nature of the hulls does not, at least not as much as the offensive nature. Type 4s and lower have very poor defensive numbers. Type 5s begin to correct this problem but type 7s and higher are hard to damage.

    That being said, I am not disagreeing with you that the doctrines are important, because they are, but even with good positioning (and hence better use of the screens), with out better defense capability, what we saw happen here will only repeat itself over again. The only differance will be his screens will die quick deaths first.
    Carriers target capital ships first (on average). Better doctrines and tech will make the Japanese carriers very deadly, but it's true what you say: the defensive nature of CV-I-III are very poor. I can work with CV-IV (and these very often form the bulk of my Japanese navy) and CV-V are fine. Anything above that, and the IC costs of the carriers explode. At least, that's my feeling. I'd rather have 10 CV-V with level VII CAGs than 8 CV-VII.
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  13. #3473
    Field Marshal Kanitatlan's Avatar
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    I think the lesson from this naval mini-campaign is that against modern ships you need to make greater use of concentration of force. Whilst older model ships have a cost effectiveness advantage this counts for nothing if you don't apply significantly more ships. The problem that is developing is that the USA deploys the same size fleets it always has but now that they involve advanced ship models the appropriate scale of counter force has increased. This may mean that in the medium to long-term individual Japanese fleets need to be significantly larger possibly leading to a need to deploy fewer separate fleets.

  14. #3474
    Flying Miaou UncleAlias's Avatar
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    On the other hand, smaller forces are quite efficient against the usual naval encounter of a handful of screens, sometimes accompanied by transports.

    One solution would be to enable a "hit-run-concentrate" doctrine when encountering large enemy fleets, where smaller fleets would retreat as soon as possible and then gather into a stronger fleet to fight the threat.
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  15. #3475
    Field Marshal Nathan Madien's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleAlias
    On the other hand, smaller forces are quite efficient against the usual naval encounter of a handful of screens, sometimes accompanied by transports.

    One solution would be to enable a "hit-run-concentrate" doctrine when encountering large enemy fleets, where smaller fleets would retreat as soon as possible and then gather into a stronger fleet to fight the threat.
    My style of naval warfare runs along that line. I like to conduct hit-and-run attacks near naval bases to minimize my losses. There's nothing worse than losing expensive capital ships in my opinion.
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  16. #3476
    I do not knwo everything about the Russian Navy...but I know that the Japanese were very fast in 1905 with killing the Russian Baltic Fleet (I thought within half an hour most of it was destroyed or heavily damaged???, after a trip of about half a year from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok..) Anyway I wanted to say that most of the Soviet Navy before WWII were old ships from the Imperial Navy...think of those cruisers like the Aurora and the old Battleships...and I saw a lvl. I submarine (1918) so the Soviets would have gained those....

    I think that those Soviet subs are more of a target practice than a real threat...I do not know how many convoys are left...but I know that they would do little damage....(I hope )

    Good Luck Remble!

    Tim

  17. #3477
    hmm with your manpower so low i would like to know how many convoys and escorts you have left. if you are losing those that could hurt you more than losing a few men in battles. those resources are your life blood, start losing those and you will be severely weakened. though im sure you will find a way to get past that keep up the good work

  18. #3478
    Quote Originally Posted by BobaFett696
    hmm with your manpower so low i would like to know how many convoys and escorts you have left. if you are losing those that could hurt you more than losing a few men in battles. those resources are your life blood, start losing those and you will be severely weakened. though im sure you will find a way to get past that keep up the good work

    He had them more then enough last time. Allies are not concentrated to do heavy convoy bombardment so he should stay fine.

  19. #3479
    Velko, safferli - The Naval battle went worse than it should have but in the end it achieved its aims. The extra Oil was a bonus

    Phax - I won't even be trying to move towards Baku yet as there are far too many Soviet troops present.

    Hermann Steiner - Any invasion of Australia would be possible with or without my fleets as I have not tried to protect it. Theoretically the AI is out of range even from Diego Garcia but that does not mean it can't do it. The AI seems to not be interested in such an invasion which would be put down by sending a TAC wing there if it should occur.

    Thurak - I re-ran the sequence of events from the Persian Gulf onwards a few times and only once did the Carriers survive their meeting with BB Division 1. You can guess which time that happened

    Cyphers Fury - They lost a few ships and I only lost one. Even their IC cannot replace losses too quickly so it is a blow to the US even though not that big of one. I don't mind having my ships damaged, I just hate to see capital ships sink.

    Inner Circle, Nathan Madien - Thank you. The capture of Persia will probably make things worse for a little while until I can reduce the enemy numbers.

    Felkethar, safferli - Welcome aboard Outdated ships are never too good but I have little choice as I have to spend way too much IC on resources. You are correct that the IJN is in for a rough time but then again in this AAR my Navy doesn't do much of the fighting. The doctrines will help some until I can spare some bombers to even the odds again.

    Timmie0307 - The trades with Venezuela have slowly improved over time yes. I have re-done most of them already to take advantage of the good relations but its still a high trade.

    Manziel - I like SHBB's! They did a very good job of destroying an equally modern USN in my other AAR but this could also be a factor of difficulty level. I don't really have enough gun ships to pull that off here though.

    FlorisDeVijfde - I think Hirohito is the only one expecting Japanese troops in Moscow by April 1948

    OneArmed - Thanks. Nope no re-instatements at all. I am not sure if the AI can do it even if it wanted to.

    robou - There might be the possibility of some Soviet troops dieing in the future

    Ruodnane - You are correct, I have already destroyed a much greater naval threat in this AAR. I have every confidence in my bomber wings repeating the process when the time comes.

    Avatar018 - Glad you liked the meeting Yes the IJN needs some modernising but its a very slow process.

    Mattabesta - I am building two Carriers. They aren't as modern as the US ones but the AI cheated them anyway

    elbasto - The bombers will be the deciding factor I expect. The real problem I am going to face is what to do if I can capture the Soviet Union. Most of Europe is also at War with me which means I almost have to conquer all the way to France, which would place an unbelievable strain on my TC. The Soviets still have an Albanian VP province as well which means I have to go that far to annex them.

    cjwet - I won't underestimate them at all. I know what my bombers can do though

    Kanitatlan, UncleAlias, Nathan Madien - Concentration of force is certainly required if I wish to tackle the enemy fleets head on. During most of this AAR I have tried to avoid such battles as best I can and used my fleet to sink smaller mostly Transport fleets. I don't really have much choice and never have as the IJN began totally outnumbered and now is just outclassed. Hit and run will continue while I wait for my bombers to come free.

    Timmie0307 - The Soviet Submarines are sent to me to use as a tool for AAR purposes and it would be a little rude of me to sink them just yet

    BobaFett696, Grapp - Grapp is correct I am not losing many convoys at all. I am using the trade percentages to illustrate anti convoy activity but this activity is not directed towards the actual convoy ships merely the trade routes.

    Update to follow ...

  20. #3480
    Operation Improbable

    8






    1100 June 6th 1947.
    The Skies Above Abadan.
    Mj. General Kato had been re-assigned to an Interceptor squadron patrolling the Pacific to allow for a senior commander to take his place in Persia. The number of Allied attacks had been fairly consistant and needed to be stopped or at least reduced considerably.

    Lt. General LeMay made the mistake of trying to bomb the airfield at Abadan where Air General Yamashita had taken command of the two Interceptor wings based in the province. Both Interceptor wings were scrambled to intercept and made contact at 1100 hours on a clear morning. LeMay's bombers would suffer huge losses during the dogfight that ensued with the 57th USAAF Strategic Bomb Wing being totally destroyed during the encounter. Future attacks would meet with a similar response unless the Interceptors themselves received too much damage, which had not happened on this occasion.




    1500 June 6th 1947.
    Kwantung Army Headquarters. Xinjing, Manchukuo.
    Japanese forces were continuing their advance across most of Manchuria meeting only sporadic enemy resistance. Terauchi was content with progress even though it was not as swift as had been hoped with the terrain being as much of an obstacle as Soviet forces.

    The successful landing of eight Japanese divisions in Iman would hopefully speed up the process as Red Army forces would be threatened with encirclement once Terauchi arrived in Harbin. General Minami led the amphibious forces once again.




    1600 June 6th 1947.
    North China Army Headquarters. Lanzhou, China.
    Lt. General Takumi had managed to capture Tabriz to remove another enemy from the War but his stay in the province would be short lived. This was something that Higashikuni had expected.

    A total of six Soviet divisions attacked his position and he was ordered to withdraw towards the mountains of Hamadan to the south. General Abe would also withdraw from Kirkuk towards Bakhtaran as the Soviet advance would threaten to isolate his position.

    The other end of Higashikuni's line saw the twin advances towards Erenhot and Xilinhot continue against light Soviet resistance. Red Army troops were still marching towards this area from the west but were not arriving in sufficient numbers for the time being. Japanese bombers were finding enough targets to keep them occupied over the entire front but the advances of the Kwantung Army were beginning to reduce target availability in Manchuria. This would be corrected once the airbase in Harbin could be captured and held.

    At 0000 hours on June 7th Mj. General Ijuin arrived in Basrah to retake the province after the doomed American landing. There were an unknown, but thought to be minor, number of enemy aircraft on the airbase when Ijuin arrived. He would remain in the province with another division having been selected to replace his in Kuwait City. The new division was on its way by redeployment and would arrive in just over a week.

    Manpower losses had reduced enough to allow a daily net gain even though more than 7000 reinforcements were still required to repair Japanese ships.

    Shima had moved his Tactical bomber group to Abadan with the Interceptors switching to Basrah to accomodate the larger aircraft. Shima would hunt amongst the low hills north of the Persian border rather than the mountains towards Baku. There were fairly small enemy forces present for the time being which would allow easier targetting and would make the enemy move more troops to this area.




    1400 June 7th 1947.
    Kwantung Army Headquarters. Harbin, Manchukuo.
    Terauchi arrived in Harbin on schedule and would be greeted by the expected counter attack from Soviet forces. He did not think that the attack would be with a relatively small number of enemy troops though.

    Malinokskij would only use fourteen divisions which would be nowhere near enough to dislodge Terauchi and his twenty one. Jiamusi was now threatened by both forces in Harbin and Iman which could isolate all of the remaining Soviet troops to the south. What the Red Army commanders did not know was that Terauchi had no intention of trying to enforce such an encirclement. His own position in Harbin was not secure enough to allow a flanking attack on his forces and he would remain patient. Slow and methodical was required to keep casualties to a minimum.

    The capture of Harbin had allowed the Dive bombers based in Dalian to move forwards and they now had a very large number of enemy troops to attack at their leisure. The forces in Hailar province would receive the first attacks.

    At 0100 hours on June 8th Field Marshall Hata arrived in Liaoyuan to capture the province. This advance would serve two purposes. Firstly the retreating troops from Chongyin were now marching towards Japanese troops and could easily be captured. Secondly there was now a large Japanese force capable of moving towards Jilin to further advance the conquest of the mountainous area. Hata had support on both flanks with neither of those armies under any threat of counter attack, but his troops needed some rest. They would not get much.

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