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  1. #261
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Pavlov
    Yes, that was my idea too...
    And what's the maximum for org and morale? 100, or they can raise higher?
    Yes. The idea was that US, UK have 100 by 1945, GER 110 by 1944 and decreased to 100 with Volksturm. SOV should have 100 by 1945 or 47 too. (but their morale would decrease too)

    If someone has a "structure" to propose for this, i listen to him. I'm currently thinking about it.

    PS : too bad they don't open us a subsection - and don't even answer to my pm - since we're far more active than other existing subsections...

  2. #262
    Emperor of Canada Darknesskilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando Torres
    Yes. The idea was that US, UK have 100 by 1945, GER 110 by 1944 and decreased to 100 with Volksturm. SOV should have 100 by 1945 or 47 too. (but their morale would decrease too)

    If someone has a "structure" to propose for this, i listen to him. I'm currently thinking about it.

    PS : too bad they don't open us a subsection - and don't even answer to my pm - since we're far more active than other existing subsections...
    Soudn't the German Organisation and/or morale, rise to a cap in 1941, then gradually diminish 'till it finally collapse in 1945 ?

  3. #263
    Senior Paladin Vladimir Pavlov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Skobelev
    Well, it's good to keep in mind that org is much more valuable than morale.
    =0.o= Is it really? I've always thought, that morale is much more valuable... Perhaps, that's based on way of waging the war...

    If someone has a "structure" to propose for this, i listen to him
    Just a graphical diagram with curves of different colours for different nations. One diagram for morale and one for Org.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Pavlov
    =0.o= Is it really? I've always thought, that morale is much more valuable... Perhaps, that's based on way of waging the war...
    Yes it is. Rising org will not only increase the max org, it also affects how the org is regained since the higher the org, the higher it will be until the regain rate will drop lower. And org is the battle-winning ability since it keeps the units in fight.

    Morale, on the other hand, only raises the org regain rate. And it requires rather large morale numbers to make a real difference.

    So org is very much more valuable than morale.

    As for how the org/morale should go, are those numbers the basic country-specific numbers or the absolute maximum numbers (like elite paratrooper SS unit)? If they are just the country-specific with options for higher levels for elite formations, I will have to think for a couple of ideas I have.
    "The elemental truth must be stressed that the characteristic of any country before its industrial revolution and modernisation is poverty..." Mathias, First Industrial Nation, pg. 5
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  5. #265
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Skobelev
    As for how the org/morale should go, are those numbers the basic country-specific numbers ?
    This is it. The base is 30 and we have to finish around 100 as i said.

  6. #266
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darknesskilla
    Soudn't the German Organisation and/or morale, rise to a cap in 1941, then gradually diminish 'till it finally collapse in 1945 ?
    Probably 42-43. But i'm not an expert.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando Torres
    This is it. The base is 30 and we have to finish around 100 as i said.
    Well, so how much "extra" do you feel should be appropriate for elite division and bonuses from battalions? +20 max? More? Less?

    For USSR I think it should have rather low org AND morale until winter war experience. That would increase morale so USSR would have somewhat high morale but still low org when Germany attacks. Then the 41-43 doctrines would bring the org to higher numbers for all units - after this all units would get even more morale and armoured units and some other maybe would get some extra organisation.

    Is there a list of all battalions? I think those should have heavy influence how org and morale are. For example if there's tank destroyer battalion it should give lots more morale (by boosting the infantry morale) and somewhat more org.

    edit: and I disagree that German morale/org should go down. Up to the end of war the Germans made dogged resistance and it was more about allied material superiority than German doctrines having failed.
    "The elemental truth must be stressed that the characteristic of any country before its industrial revolution and modernisation is poverty..." Mathias, First Industrial Nation, pg. 5
    "The Central Committee and the government are in possession of definite proof that this massive exodus of the peasants has been organized by the enemies of the Soviet regime, by counterrevolutionaries, and by Polish agents as a propaganda coup against the process for collectivization in particular and the Soviet Government in general" - USSR leadership about famine & migration caused by bolshevik policy of confiscating all food despite human losses. Stéphane Courtois et al, The Black Book of Communism, pg. 164.
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  8. #268
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Skobelev
    Well, so how much "extra" do you feel should be appropriate for elite division and bonuses from battalions? +20 max? More? Less?

    For USSR I think it should have rather low org AND morale until winter war experience. That would increase morale so USSR would have somewhat high morale but still low org when Germany attacks. Then the 41-43 doctrines would bring the org to higher numbers for all units - after this all units would get even more morale and armoured units and some other maybe would get some extra organisation.

    Is there a list of all battalions? I think those should have heavy influence how org and morale are. For example if there's tank destroyer battalion it should give lots more morale (by boosting the infantry morale) and somewhat more org.
    +30 max seems good but i can't really have any "balance" notion until i test it.
    For the batallions, they are not finished yet but here is a short list of what we'll implement :

    - Light motorization
    - Heavy motorization
    - Tank Destroyer
    - Police
    - Recon
    - Anti tank
    - Regiment Artillery
    - Division Artillery (for HQ only)
    - Mobile Artillery
    - Static/Mobile AA
    - Light Armored
    - Heavy Armored
    - Extra slot (will use it for flavour attachements such as russian snipers etc)


    EDIT : for the GER, i meant at least, their orga growth should be "slower" after 42 so the Allied will recover them.

  9. #269
    Senior Paladin Vladimir Pavlov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Skobelev
    For USSR I think it should have rather low org AND morale until winter war experience. That would increase morale so USSR would have somewhat high morale but still low org when Germany attacks. Then the 41-43 doctrines would bring the org to higher numbers for all units - after this all units would get even more morale and armoured units and some other maybe would get some extra organisation.
    Agree. I'd say, slow advance of morale on "Traditional" branch, slow advance of "Organization" on Tuhachevsky branch. Then, a big + to org after Talvisota (not sure about morale - I don't think, results of the Winter War greatly increased it...). In 41 - big raise of morale (making it among highest in the world, if not highest at all), then slow progression of morale and medium progression of org till 1947..

  10. #270
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Pavlov
    Agree. I'd say, slow advance of morale on "Traditional" branch, slow advance of "Organization" on Tuhachevsky branch. Then, a big + to org after Talvisota (not sure about morale - I don't think, results of the Winter War greatly increased it...). In 41 - big raise of morale (making it among highest in the world, if not highest at all), then slow progression of morale and medium progression of org till 1947..
    Well we really need those graphics.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando Torres
    +30 max seems good but i can't really have any "balance" notion until i test it.
    For the batallions, they are not finished yet but here is a short list of what we'll implement :

    - Light motorization
    - Heavy motorization
    - Tank Destroyer
    - Police
    - Recon
    - Anti tank
    - Regiment Artillery
    - Division Artillery (for HQ only)
    - Mobile Artillery
    - Static/Mobile AA
    - Light Armored
    - Heavy Armored
    - Extra slot (will use it for flavour attachements such as russian snipers etc)


    EDIT : for the GER, i meant at least, their orga growth should be "slower" after 42 so the Allied will recover them.
    Yeah, that I agree with. Allies will definitely have much higher org growth from doctrines from 42 or so onwards.

    About +30 from brigades sounds good to me. It will allow very well the differentiation between different battalions.

    As for the org/morale from battalions, I think artillery types and antitank things (pak and tank destroyer) should give more morale bonus than org - "normal artillery" maybe would give no org bonus at all since it would have good soft attack. Tank battalions should IMO give the most for both morale/org but be quite costly. And the motorisations/recon to give good org but not so much morale.

    And the extra slot - do you plan on putting some "elite" formations to it? If so, it could be good for some paratroopers etc to have elite attachment with very good bonuses but it would either cost extremely much or be given by events.
    "The elemental truth must be stressed that the characteristic of any country before its industrial revolution and modernisation is poverty..." Mathias, First Industrial Nation, pg. 5
    "The Central Committee and the government are in possession of definite proof that this massive exodus of the peasants has been organized by the enemies of the Soviet regime, by counterrevolutionaries, and by Polish agents as a propaganda coup against the process for collectivization in particular and the Soviet Government in general" - USSR leadership about famine & migration caused by bolshevik policy of confiscating all food despite human losses. Stéphane Courtois et al, The Black Book of Communism, pg. 164.
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  12. #272
    Senior Paladin Vladimir Pavlov's Avatar
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    And mobile Reactive Rocket Launchers are considered just artillery?

  13. #273
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Skobelev
    And the extra slot - do you plan on putting some "elite" formations to it? If so, it could be good for some paratroopers etc to have elite attachment with very good bonuses but it would either cost extremely much or be given by events.
    Why not. But we have to be carrefull with this or the elite units will be overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Pavlov
    And mobile Reactive Rocket Launchers are considered just artillery?
    Mobile artillery.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando Torres
    Why not. But we have to be carrefull with this or the elite units will be overpowered.
    Yes, absolutely. Either make it horribly expensive or just given by events. And only attachable to special units, not for infantry, I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando Torres
    Mobile artillery.
    Does it include both self-propelled artillery and rocket artillery? If both, they can be differentiated with country-specific models so USSR will get Katyusha.
    "The elemental truth must be stressed that the characteristic of any country before its industrial revolution and modernisation is poverty..." Mathias, First Industrial Nation, pg. 5
    "The Central Committee and the government are in possession of definite proof that this massive exodus of the peasants has been organized by the enemies of the Soviet regime, by counterrevolutionaries, and by Polish agents as a propaganda coup against the process for collectivization in particular and the Soviet Government in general" - USSR leadership about famine & migration caused by bolshevik policy of confiscating all food despite human losses. Stéphane Courtois et al, The Black Book of Communism, pg. 164.
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  15. #275
    Emperor of Canada Darknesskilla's Avatar
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    Soudn't the German Organisation and/or morale, rise to a cap in 1941, then gradually diminish 'till it finally collapse in 1945 ?
    Probably 42-43. But i'm not an expert.
    Well, '41 was like ZOMG we PWN, '42 was like: Why are we still fighting ? Shoudn't we have won yet ? Then in 1943, after Stalingrad, they we're starting to think the war could be lost. in '44 after Kursk & stuff, they were like: Were losing !

    and in '45 it was like: ZOMG we're getting PWNED!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES

    Hope that was helpful :P

  16. #276
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Skobelev
    Yes, absolutely. Either make it horribly expensive or just given by events. And only attachable to special units, not for infantry, I think.
    The attachements can't be given by events. The only thing you can do is activate a unit which have that attachement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Skobelev
    Does it include both self-propelled artillery and rocket artillery? If both, they can be differentiated with country-specific models so USSR will get Katyusha.
    Honestly, no clue. 49h will send me his list soon and we'll rework it if needed.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknesskilla
    Well, '41 was like ZOMG we PWN, '42 was like: Why are we still fighting ? Shoudn't we have won yet ? Then in 1943, after Stalingrad, they we're starting to think the war could be lost. in '44 after Kursk & stuff, they were like: Were losing !

    and in '45 it was like: ZOMG we're getting PWNED!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES

    Hope that was helpful :P



    Heh still German troops managed to inflict much higher losses to red army than they themselves got and maintained good ratio against WA also. So their morale would not get lower, it's just that allies will catch them up and then use the superior numbers and material base to crush them.
    "The elemental truth must be stressed that the characteristic of any country before its industrial revolution and modernisation is poverty..." Mathias, First Industrial Nation, pg. 5
    "The Central Committee and the government are in possession of definite proof that this massive exodus of the peasants has been organized by the enemies of the Soviet regime, by counterrevolutionaries, and by Polish agents as a propaganda coup against the process for collectivization in particular and the Soviet Government in general" - USSR leadership about famine & migration caused by bolshevik policy of confiscating all food despite human losses. Stéphane Courtois et al, The Black Book of Communism, pg. 164.
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  18. #278

  19. #279
    Emperor of Canada Darknesskilla's Avatar
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    Yet the situation on the Eastern Front started worsening from '42 on and German morale was very weak by 1944/45...

    What do you mean by "graphic" ?

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknesskilla
    Yet the situation on the Eastern Front started worsening from '42 on and German morale was very weak by 1944/45...
    Yes the situation started getting worse in 42. But it's not about how the combat values are absolutely. It's the relative values that are important. And Germany was losing the war because allies had quantitative edge. Germans had the qualitative edge if compared man on man or tank on tank.

    And the "morale" is for combat units, not for homefront or such. That's what dissent if for IMO. But then, it's naturally up to Fernando how he wishes to have things represented.

    And sorry, I don't know how I could do any graph. I'm not too good at stuff like that.
    "The elemental truth must be stressed that the characteristic of any country before its industrial revolution and modernisation is poverty..." Mathias, First Industrial Nation, pg. 5
    "The Central Committee and the government are in possession of definite proof that this massive exodus of the peasants has been organized by the enemies of the Soviet regime, by counterrevolutionaries, and by Polish agents as a propaganda coup against the process for collectivization in particular and the Soviet Government in general" - USSR leadership about famine & migration caused by bolshevik policy of confiscating all food despite human losses. Stéphane Courtois et al, The Black Book of Communism, pg. 164.
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