There Will Be War - In The Balance

Ok, just to make sure I understand how the war has been going, The sides were:
Varyar(Italy), KoM(Norway), Hyme(Bohemia) and Carillon(Prussia)
vs.
Sid(Russia), fasq(Georgia), Eird(Byzantium)

With Lurken(Serbia) having taken to the side lines due to an agreement between Var and fasq.
The war began because Varyar(Italy) thought that Sid(Russia) was growing to. powerful. It sort of exploded after that with alliances, grabs for land and accusations of threats.

Is this correct? Or has Conq(Arabia) joined up.


From what I can tell the western powers haven't entered the war due to a NAP between ulmont and Sid. Little interesting that ulmont hasn't tried stabbing KoM and carillon in the back and invade england/wales. Would have been the perfect opportunity to as well. With the Northerner's armies on the other side of the continent stuck in a fight with Russia they would have to decide which war to win and which to lose. A loss in the east would put the bear on their doorstep and a loss in the west would effectively remove them from Brittania. Or at least reduce their presence. And Ike would get something to counterbalance the loss of the title King of Scotland.
Although ulmont has probably decided not too already. Maybe he feels that the NAP he has with Var extends to their allies, or maybe he is worried that Bohemia and Italy will come after him and since he is isolated from the eastern powers he would be in a great deal of trouble.

Anyway, very interesting game so far. Lets see how this war turns out.

Thlawrence said:

Ok, just to make sure I understand how the war has been going, The sides were:
Varyar(Italy), KoM(Norway), Hyme(Bohemia) and Carillon(Prussia)
vs.
Sid(Russia), fasq(Georgia), Eird(Byzantium)

With Lurken(Serbia) having taken to the side lines due to an agreement between Var and fasq.
The war began because Varyar(Italy) thought that Sid(Russia) was growing to. powerful. It sort of exploded after that with alliances, grabs for land and accusations of threats.

Is this correct? Or has Conq(Arabia) joined up.


From what I can tell the western powers haven't entered the war due to a NAP between ulmont and Sid. Little interesting that ulmont hasn't tried stabbing KoM and carillon in the back and invade england/wales. Would have been the perfect opportunity to as well. With the Northerner's armies on the other side of the continent stuck in a fight with Russia they would have to decide which war to win and which to lose. A loss in the east would put the bear on their doorstep and a loss in the west would effectively remove them from Brittania. Or at least reduce their presence. And Ike would get something to counterbalance the loss of the title King of Scotland.
Although ulmont has probably decided not too already. Maybe he feels that the NAP he has with Var extends to their allies, or maybe he is worried that Bohemia and Italy will come after him and since he is isolated from the eastern powers he would be in a great deal of trouble.

Anyway, very interesting game so far. Lets see how this war turns out.

Click to expand...

Actually Ulmont is at war with Georgia so that is why he aint back stabbing KoM.

Emperor Ike said:

Actually Ulmont is at war with Georgia so that is why he aint back stabbing KoM.

Click to expand...

Which pretty much tells you how far NAPs extend in my opinion, namely to signatories and named beneficiaries only.

What boggles me is what Ulmont has to gain from attacking Fasq, as any land Georgia owns is quite far away from his own Empire. Unless Ulmont was paid in some way to attack the biggest benefactor in the current War.

Just speculation though.

Yes it is unusual that he is going after Georgia. He has already showed that he doesn't want a strong Russia, however if the eastern powers defeat the central powers it would benefit him since his neighbors would suddenly be weakened and Russia is so far away it won't bother him. However is the central powers win then Russia would be weakened and his neighbors would grow stronger. A strong Norway/Prussia would hurt his chances of gaining Brittania.
Of course we also have to consider the future, does he believe that a strong Russia, Georgia would interfere with his plans for expansion in EU? Or would Italy, Norway, Prussia and Bohemia be more of a problem?

So it may not have been bribes that caused him to attack Georgia, although it is still very likely. He may also be trying to support Italy, since Varyar and ulmont have shown to be interested in different areas they would get along quite well.

So far Ulmont hasnt gained anything from the war with Georgia, Georgia can easily push back Britanny as Georgias manpower is nearly infinit however it is heavily hurting me as its distracting Fasquardon from helping me beyond 20,000 men, something that has made me rather frustrated.

But nonetheless once the Georgian war machine gears up we'll pwn the westerners to a point where they can never harm us in a big gang bang again.

Note that I believe this war to be absolutely pillocks and out of sheer malice, I'm only 4-5th place in absolute terms my manpower is less then all of my neighbours with the possible exception of Norway so far the demands will reduce my sheers by 1/3 and there will be no way or chance of ever getting them back, if I do try to get them back even through peaceful means this "alliance" so far has shown every willingness to gang me again so winning this war for me is now or never.

Thlawrence said:

Yes it is unusual that he is going after Georgia. He has already showed that he doesn't want a strong Russia, however if the eastern powers defeat the central powers it would benefit him since his neighbors would suddenly be weakened and Russia is so far away it won't bother him. However is the central powers win then Russia would be weakened and his neighbors would grow stronger. A strong Norway/Prussia would hurt his chances of gaining Brittania.
Of course we also have to consider the future, does he believe that a strong Russia, Georgia would interfere with his plans for expansion in EU? Or would Italy, Norway, Prussia and Bohemia be more of a problem?

So it may not have been bribes that caused him to attack Georgia, although it is still very likely. He may also be trying to support Italy, since Varyar and ulmont have shown to be interested in different areas they would get along quite well.

Click to expand...

Why not attack Norway and Prussia as there would be much more beneficial.

Sid Meier said:

if I do try to get them back even through peaceful means this "alliance" so far has shown every willingness to gang me again so winning this war for me is now or never.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't count on that.

don't count on what? It is indeed now or never, your invading for no reason, Bohemia wants the Ukraine, your offering Lurken all lands North of Maldau Norway wants 90% of Golles lands and your demanding Pinsk and Co. If i lose all of this I will be a minor power of no consequence, I cannot lose without losing forever.

Sid Meier said:

don't count on what? It is indeed now or never, your invading for no reason, Bohemia wants the Ukraine, your offering Lurken all lands North of Maldau Norway wants 90% of Golles lands and your demanding Pinsk and Co. If i lose all of this I will be a minor power of no consequence, I cannot lose without losing forever.

Click to expand...

Amen to that.

(Image by unknown artist)

King-Kaštšei
For clarification, King-Kaštšei is name now given to the ynling half-men, half wild-beast king who mercilesly wanders in the virgil lands of Novgorod, spreading havoc where peace use to dwell.

Said prince to his heir-son
When he looked upon the west
Beware of King-Kaštšei
Who comes with crimson sail

Beware them all
Beware his wars
Beware of King-Kaštšei
Be sure all the doors, are all closed well
Alas, Kaštšei shall come again.

Said Prince to his heir-son
When he looked upon the south
Beware of Kin of Kaštšeis
As they breed from snails

They dwell in lies
They feast in crimes
They eat the corpses from the grave
Be sure the gates are all closed well
Alas Alas, Kaštšei shall come again.


“Where's the prince of the land?” Asks King-Kaštšei
“He's gone to Moscow”, says the heir to him
“Where's the host of the land” Asks King-Kaštšei
“They have gone into war” Says the heir to him.

“Where's the gold of the vault?” Asks King-Kaštšei
“Its hidden in the woods” Says the heir to him
“Where's the lady of the land?” Asks King-Kaštšei
“She has gone to hidding” Says the heir to him.

“We shall rob 'em, we shall burn 'em, we shall stick them onto pole”
When their blood runs do his cup.
Calls the Kaštšei for his pray

“Come ye outside the wall,” Says King-Kaštšei
“How can I cross the siege?” Asks the heir from him
“You have strong lattern” Says king-Kaštšei
Varjag in the dusk shall storm the walls done

“We will mock 'em, we will stab 'em, we shall take all what is their
Then the false-pope shall be praised,
from the mouth of the Kaštšei-king

But king-Kaštšei shall be beaten, Varjag horde shall begone by noon
The blood-stream shall reach all Danmark
From the gore of their kin.


Said prince to his heir-son
When he looked upon the west
Beware of King-Kaštšei
Who comes with crimson sail

Beware them all
Beware his wars
Beware of King-Kaštšei
Be sure all the doors, are all closed well
Alas, Kaštšei shall come again


A sort of adaptation of “Long Lankin”
(trad. AARranged by Gollevainen)

---------------------------------------------


And as for reward...yeas, again My wife to become pregnent. Third time shall tell and give me a heir

News came to Scottland​

Two diplomats entered the audience room where King Robert and Chancellor Ike were waiting. Both of the diplomats bowed.
"My lord we come with news from the east" The younger diplomat said.
"What kind of news?" King asked.
"These news are about the Western Allies and the Orthodaani Alliance" Younger man said. "What about them?" Robert asked.
"One of the leaders, Italy has declared war against Russia and it's allies" Older man said. "What?" Robert said. "How many of the Western Allies joined the war?" He asked. "All except France and Breton empire" Old man said. "So Kingdoms of Norway, Prussia and Bohemia are with Italy?" Ike asked. "Yes" Younger diplomat answered. "Those bastards!" Robert yelled. He stod up ,walked towards the window where he stoped and turned around. "This is madness those Ynglings doesn't seem to like peace" Robert said. "Has the Emperor send any letters to us regardin these evil acts by Norway? " Ike asked and walked towards the diplomats. "No, they haven't" Older diplomat said. "Good, leave us now" Ike said. Both of the diplomats bowed and walked out from the room.

Could we have the front page updated, soon??

This is my understanding of the diplomatic situation. Bohemia, Prussia, and Norway are at war with Russia, Georgia, and Byzantium. Brittany is prohibited by treaty from attacking Russia, but is at war with Georgia. Italy is prohibited by treaty from invading Georgia, but is at war with Russia. I'm not sure about how Byz stands in those two last-mentioned wars. Serbia is courted by both sides; it had actually agreed to join the Easterners, but it was subbed this session and the sub was given the instruction "join unless a better offer is made". A better offer was then made; there was some confusion over whether Serbia was actually at liberty to DOW Russia due to its obligations under the Commonwealth, and the upshot was that fasquardon and Varyar agreed that Serbia was more trouble than it was worth, and that they would both withdraw their bids and keep Serbia neutral. Since then more bids have been made, and it is believed that Serbia will join the Eastern alliance.

Of the few neutrals, France is busy cleaning up rebellions in the wake of a child inheriting, Scotland is temperamentally inclined to attack Norway but would get stomped, and anyway ulmont could just peace him out, since Scotland is a vassal of Brittany; and Arabia I'm not sure about. It seems there was some cleaning up of Dukes going on there as well. Presumably Conq would like nothing better than to grab some Georgian lands in the Middle East, but there are treaty concerns and besides, Georgia is a behemoth.

So much for diplomacy; now the military situation. The Norwegian, Prussian, and Bohemian armies have all made progress in invading their respective corners of Russia, destroying local resistance and occupying considerable land. However, Georgian reinforcements are now arriving in strength, after a long overland march. Italian troops have attempted to land in the Crimea, but have been repelled with heavy casualties; Varyar is considering other options for more effective participation. Breton troops have landed in the Middle East and taken some land there, but the Georgian strongholds - Baghdad, Damascus - are far too heavily defended to attack effectively. However, these vast regiments are garrison troops, unable to come out of their fortified cities - the Baghdad regiment, I am informed, starts out at 50000 men and 66% attrition. This means it can repel any attempted siege of Baghdad by being raised for a few days; but it cannot come out to play in the field. ulmont is therefore starting to ignore the Georgian demesne and attacking vassals instead.

Here is a map showing the Norwegian, Prussia, and Bohemian gains in Russia, and also the Norwegian demands, the proposed border being outlined in red.



Oh, and we are not "invading for no reason", we have a really excellent reason. To wit, Russia has stuff that we want! Gimme!

That screenshot is full of lies and inaccuracies, it is nothing more but Norse propoganda, in actually combined Georgian Russian Armies are trouncing Norweigian Armies and pushing them back North, Carillon had been pushed back Westwards and despite nearly 3-4 year at war combined Italian Bohemian armies have yet to sufficiently cross the Dniepr, this war is still on and Kyiv has been liberated, the aggressors will be repulsed and the perpetrators sufficiently punished for their actions.

Ok, fair's fair; it seems I accidentally used an old save to make that screenie. Here is the situation in 1194, with Bohemia's demands added in blue:


Note that one province has for some reason gone over to Serbia, which isn't even in the war. Which accounts for why Italy isn't occupying anything any more. Also note Norway's gains along the White Sea coast.

Prussia has yet to make any demands; I do think Russia will survive this as a viable power, though, say about the size of Byzantium or perhaps Norway. Which is to say, as the current war demonstrates, by no means a negligible factor!

Edit: Oh, and while Prussia is no longer occupying two provinces of Novgorod, this is not because of any Russian battle-luck. Rather, it is because carillon offered Gollevainen a peace which included Golle becoming a vassal of Prussia. Because of a bug in MP, this showed up for Golle as an offer of white peace, which he naturally accepted. Since this was clearly not intended, we fixed it by a quick Russian DOW and another vassal-peace offer, restoring Golle to Russia, and losing carillon the two provinces he had occupied. So that's all bugs, and nothing to do with the war!

Huh? I didn't notice that those provinces are going to have to be returned then. As for Turki it was done by the AI and not something Im paritcularly upset over its between me fasq and lurken.

King of Men said:

Note that two provinces seem to have changed hands in the interim, which is possibly in violation of the vassal-annexation rule, but does explain why Bohemia is suddenly only occupying two provinces - two others have been annexed!

Click to expand...

The difference between April 17, which is when the save was taken, and April 18, which you seem to have let the game run to before taking the screen shot, is actually pretty key. At game start, Bohemia is still occupying those provinces.

Regarding the Prussian lost provinces, should control be reverted to Prussia, to restore status quo ante regarding the bug?

I don't think that's necessary; by the rules, carillon should have warned Golle about the vassalisation in the peace offer. Having to re-occupy the provinces is a reasonable punishment for that breach. Also you will note that my screenie is now updated and correct.

Yep he must pay the prize of re-occupation as he indeed didn't warn him. What was very evil indeed, must have been ordered by Norway. It also pretty much seems that despite the false norse propaganda the war is getting a new turn soon as Norwegian, Bohemian and Prussian armies are soon to be pushed back by Russian and Georgian armies. So i wish luck to the Orthodaani alliance and may they humiliate these warmongering Kingdoms that are violating russian lands withouth a good reason (it ain't a reason to go in and say i wan't your lands, better reason would be if they would have molested your people.)