Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

From what i've noticed, the computer decides what to name children at conception at the latest, since If I load up a pregnant woman the child is always named the same. Could very well be earlier somehow, or else it goes through the names with a fixed algorithm or something: in the Welsh game, in the 1086 save, my second son was always named Owain, loaded it up probably 3 times from a point before he was born (in this new 1072 Wales mod reincarnation, he hasn't been born, yet at least).

You could always edit the save I guess, just changing a characters name isn't that hard if you can find the right character. First check your primary titles tag to see the rulers character id, then search through your dynasty to find the kids with the right father and edit their names. Don't think it needs anything else. Or hey, the Welsh names aren't that common, just do Find and search for the rulers' (or directly for the kids') first names directly.

Also, 2 questions for jordarkelf and/or Drachenfire: I was amused by the fact that Rhys Morgan (char id 6382) is part of my dynasty, yet has no relatives of any kind in 1066. He's in 2.1b already, is this sort of thing common?

Question 2: I know this is hardly an undisputable source, but wikipedia ("List of rulers of Wales"), seems to imply that the 1066 scenario should have Cadwgan ap Meurig Morgan as Duke of Morgannwg and Count of Gwent, with Caradog (the Count of Gwent in-game) as a vassal Count of Morgannwg (Glywysing): " [The Kingdom of Gwent was rule by] Cadwgan ap Meurig (1063-1074 [years of his reign]), who was also King of Morgannwg, ruling Glywysing through
Gruffydd ap Rhydderch's son, Caradog ap Gruffydd (1075-1081) who seized Gwent and the Kingdom of Morgannwg"
To clarify, Caradog ruled the County of Morgannwg from 1063-1081, and seized power from Cadwgan in 1074/1075.

Both Counties are in the base game already (Morgannwg C019, Gwent C020), but the Duke of Morgannwg title is only added with DVIP-Wales. Are there other historical sources that would be more reliable maybe? Otherwise, take this as my suggestion for the next update of DVIP-Wales: Make Cadwgan the Duke of Morgannwg and Count of Gwent, with Caradog as the vassal Count of Morgannwg.

JohnnyReb said:

The "Vassals" section of the character sheet is blank, whether I select my king, another king or a duke. But they're still my color and if I click on the duke's picture, hi character sheet shows me as his liege.

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is this in the 1204 scenario? I've had the same problem, and usually it works to just let it roll over into the next month

edit: I should have read the rest of the page

Snaake said:

You could always edit the save I guess, just changing a characters name isn't that hard if you can find the right character.

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Aye, this is what I may have to do. Edwyn is an ok name... but not exactly heoric. And anyway, it owes more to Anglo-Saxon influence methinks and would be inappropriate for Llywelyn'd heir, who would have chosen one of the dynasty names. I did delete Edwyn once to see what it would default to, and it went to Gruffydd, which would be ok but Llywelyn's eldest son is already Gruffydd, lol, and will be added soonish.

Ah well.

As for Ffraid... it's my least favorite Welsh female name. Supposedly it is very popular back in the day but honestly it puts me of mind of being a-fraid. :rofl:

Snaake said:

Also, 2 questions for jordarkelf and/or Drachenfire: I was amused by the fact that Rhys Morgan (char id 6382) is part of my dynasty, yet has no relatives of any kind in 1066. He's in 2.1b already, is this sort of thing common?

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Ill need to get in and see who he is, it is possible there is a duplicate or he was added for another reason. Lemme get back in today when I get home.

Snaake said:

Question 2: I know this is hardly an undisputable source, but wikipedia ("List of rulers of Wales"), seems to imply that the 1066 scenario should have Cadwgan ap Meurig Morgan as Duke of Morgannwg and Count of Gwent, with Caradog (the Count of Gwent in-game) as a vassal Count of Morgannwg (Glywysing): " [The Kingdom of Gwent was rule by] Cadwgan ap Meurig (1063-1074 [years of his reign]), who was also King of Morgannwg, ruling Glywysing through
Gruffydd ap Rhydderch's son, Caradog ap Gruffydd (1075-1081) who seized Gwent and the Kingdom of Morgannwg"
To clarify, Caradog ruled the County of Morgannwg from 1063-1081, and seized power from Cadwgan in 1074/1075.

Both Counties are in the base game already (Morgannwg C019, Gwent C020), but the Duke of Morgannwg title is only added with DVIP-Wales. Are there other historical sources that would be more reliable maybe? Otherwise, take this as my suggestion for the next update of DVIP-Wales: Make Cadwgan the Duke of Morgannwg and Count of Gwent, with Caradog as the vassal Count of Morgannwg.

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I do not myself trust wikipedia's history articals concerning Wales because almost all are unsourced, or sourced to suspect websites. Rather, I refer to John Davies History of Wales or J.E. Lloyd's A History of Wales: From the Norman Invasion to the Edwardian Conquest, among others. If I do not see it in a published source then I tend to be conservative in my recommendations here in CK.

All that Lloyd says is that Morgannwg returns to its historic dynasty in the person of Cadwgan ap Meurig (who I recommended naming of the dynasty 'Morgan',), with Gwenllwg and Upper Gwent under the control of Caradog ap Gruffydd ap Rhydderch. He does not comment on the relationship between the two, however. The impression I get from the text between these two, and with Deheubarth, is a relationship of competition and rivalry, and that the relationship between Cadwgan and Caradog was not one of suzerain and vassal. You recommend that they should be, other then Wiki do you have a source for this?

As far as weather or not Morgannwg should be raised to "Duchy" level, I am neutral on this point really. I have no issue with Cadwgan ap Meurig becoming "Duke of Morgannwg", so long as he remains rivals with Caradog ap Gruffydd and Bleddyn in the Brecons. I believe that the reasoning for Morgannwg to not already be a duchy level was because it was reasoned that by comparison to the Prince of Deheubarth that the ruler of Glamorgan did not exert as much wide ranging influence after 1063 until their conquest by the Normans.

will it be possible for us to see a Kingdom of Austria?

I've been wanting to create a Kingdom of Austria (encompasing Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Hungary etc) but whenever I take over Hungary, I am made the Kingdom of Hungary and king of Hungary, unless I chose to not press the claim that I stake, and remain the Duchy of Austria.

I believe what would be good, would be if there was a level above King and that is Emperor....which is what Germany would be, as a kingdom of germany in 1066...didnt exactly happen, there was the Holy Roman emperor....but that was about it really...

Even when Germany became a unified country (1870's) Bavaria still had a King.

So yeah......

Or do I have to do some trippy modding stuff in order to proclaim a Kingdom of Austria?

A "kingdom of Austria" title can be created using some of the undefined kingdom user tags. At the moment I am not by my home computer so could not tell you which numbers to use.

Baically, what you would do is assign the Austrian duchy and Tyrol duchy tags to the new Kingdom of Austria tag, and there you have it. You would have to then create the "Kingdom of Austria" by becoming duke or overlord of those provinces to create that kingdom level title.

You may petition Jord to create the Austrian kingdom in his "Wales map mode/More Kingdoms... which has other kingdoms as part of the mode. I personally would welcome a "kingdom of Austria" myself as an aspirational title.

Once you create the title it would be your first kingship title, if you wish to recreate the Habsburg Empire then you would conqure or marry into the Hungery, Bohemia, Croatia, et al. Hopefully you could marry into those realms... isn't that how the Habsburgs created their empire?

Originally Posted by Snaake
Also, 2 questions for jordarkelf and/or Drachenfire: I was amused by the fact that Rhys Morgan (char id 6382) is part of my dynasty, yet has no relatives of any kind in 1066. He's in 2.1b already, is this sort of thing common?

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@Snaake: Oh! The orphan Rhys Morgan in Gwynedd (Gwyn). Yeah, I have not been able to determin who he is. He was a character already in the vanilla but his family connections is in question. I wouldn't assume he is connected with the rulers in Glamorgan, though. Another contributor Llywelyn is the one who fleshed out the Morgan family for Glamorgan for my origional Welsh mode Here be Dragons which largely rewrote the Welsh set up and was largely adopted by Jord and Veld for their mods.

@ Jord: by the way Jord, we do need a new character to be the bishop of Bangor for Gwynedd in the 1066 scenario... a bishop Dyfan Bangor. I have no comments on his stats, other then that he needs to be Ecclesiastical Education so that he may be apppointed bishop. Birthdate maybe around 1025ish?

Drachenfire said:

@Snaake: Oh! The orphan Rhys Morgan in Gwynedd (Gwyn). Yeah, I have not been able to determin who he is. He was a character already in the vanilla but his family connections is in question. I wouldn't assume he is connected with the rulers in Glamorgan, though. Another contributor Llywelyn is the one who fleshed out the Morgan family for Glamorgan for my origional Welsh mode Here be Dragons which largely rewrote the Welsh set up and was largely adopted by Jord and Veld for their mods.

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Yup, him, forgot he was in Gwynedd at the start. He didn't really feature into my game (other than that I got some humor out of marrying him to some lustful 35-year old at the age of 16), since he got wounded, ill, intestinal worms, ill again, and then died (in that order) without siring any heirs. Tough guy to kill Would just have been interesting, he could theoretically be cross-married into the rest of the dynasty, without even any chance of inbreeding.

As to the earlier thing, no, I don't actually have other sources. I haven't actually really read any Welsh history, just found that stuff on wikipedia. I think it would make for a slightly more interesting starting scenario (I agree that they should definitely be rivals). Could also be changed so Cadwgan is Duke of Morgannwg and Count of Morgannwg, with Caradog being a vassal Count of Gwent. Since Gwent has base income of 1.2 in 1066 and Morgannwg has 0.6, this would leave Cadwgan quite likely to be able to make a successful coup (maybe give him a claim to the Duchy to begin with), due to being rivals and thus disloyal and probably having a larger army.

This is mostly justified by what i'd feel to be best for the dramaturgy of the starting scenario and what could and probably would result from it, but I more than understand your willingness to rely on published sources for historical accuracy. For the same dramaturgy I would be discinlined to have Morgannwg begin as a one-province Duchy, instead the one province with claims on it's neighbours, as in the current DVIP-Wales 1066 scenario, feels appropriate.

The articles did have some sources, didn't actually read through the sources themselves. I may check up on them later at some point.


P.S. Playing in Wales, i've finally found a use for those couple of lessons of Welsh pronounciation (and some interesting grammar trivia) that a Welsh teacher taught our class for fun once. The class was English literature, and we read the Mabinogion as one of the pieces for the world literature section of the class (world lit was defined as translations into English). :rofl:

Snaake said:

Yup, him, forgot he was in Gwynedd at the start. He didn't really feature into my game (other than that I got some humor out of marrying him to some lustful 35-year old at the age of 16), since he got wounded, ill, intestinal worms, ill again, and then died (in that order) without siring any heirs. Tough guy to kill Would just have been interesting, he could theoretically be cross-married into the rest of the dynasty, without even any chance of inbreeding.

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A 35 year old and 16 year old? lol. I have grave misgivings about those kinds of marriages and what they might reveal, lol. I myself try to marry people close in age. In addition, since I do not usually marry my female courtiers until they are well into their mid-twenties... I usually have the chance to marry them to the people that they fall in love with. This is fun to be honest, because usually if I marry the eligible heir as soon as she is 16, she may find that she has fallen for someone else. Therefore, I wait.

I am suspecting that the indistructable Rhys Morgan, with his ecclesiastical education, was placed there to be a character available to be a bishop for the player of that dynasty.

Just an FYI, even though Rhys Morgan is not technically of your dynasty, I think the computer still reads him as so, so that if you marry that Rhys Morgan to a Morgan in your court, then there is still the chance for inbreeding. Well, that is if Rhys Morgan's dynasty tag is the same as the Morgans for Glamorgan. I or Jord will have to double check. I know there is a generic dynasty name Morgan that can appear all across Wales, but I do not know if Rhys Morgan in Gwynedd and the Morgans in Glamorgan are tagged to this generic dynasty or if they have their own dynasty tag.

Snaake said:

As to the earlier thing, no, I don't actually have other sources. I haven't actually really read any Welsh history, just found that stuff on wikipedia. I think it would make for a slightly more interesting starting scenario (I agree that they should definitely be rivals). Could also be changed so Cadwgan is Duke of Morgannwg and Count of Morgannwg, with Caradog being a vassal Count of Gwent. Since Gwent has base income of 1.2 in 1066 and Morgannwg has 0.6, this would leave Cadwgan quite likely to be able to make a successful coup (maybe give him a claim to the Duchy to begin with), due to being rivals and thus disloyal and probably having a larger army.

This is mostly justified by what i would feel to be best for the dramaturgy of the starting scenario and what could and probably would result from it, but I more than understand your willingness to rely on published sources for historical accuracy. For the same dramaturgy I would be disinclined to have Morgannwg begin as a one-province Duchy, instead the one province with claims on its neighbors, as in the current DVIP-Wales 1066 scenario, feels appropriate.

The articles did have some sources, did not actually read the sources themselves. I may check up on them later at some point.

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I'll be getting to the available online sources within the next few days and have a recommendation. I understand the desire for dramatic license, for that is what we will be doing with the Mortimer family in 1187 (as Counts of Shrewsbury rather then as courtiers in Hereford where Wigmore is technically located) and 1204. However, on the outside I am not convinced of the necessity to grant Gwent the rank "duke" simply because of game mechanics- that eventually the ruler of Gwent would become duke because the paramaters are set to make him so. There would have to be some evidence that the ruler of Gwent would have suzerainty over the ruler of Glamorgan, or a claim to that position, that could not be better represented by rivalry or claims.

IIRC for DVIP Wales, Morgannwg has a base value of 3, Gwent and Brycheiniog (Brecknockshire) have 2 each (ill need to double check, that was my recommendations to Jord and Veld though). That base value must be set at 0.6 based off technology and other considerations. However, in most of my games I see, half the time the AI ruler of Morgannwg is able to take the AI ruler of Gwent. The only times that I have seen the AI ruler of Gwent take Morgannwg is if he had first taken Brycheiniog.

Incidentally, the Morgan family did survive the Norman conquest of the Principality of Morgannwg. Once conquered and it was unlikely the Norman yoke would be overthrown, they accepted the demoted position of Barons of Avenne over their ancestrial capital of Afen, now known in Welsh as Aberafan and in English as Port Talbolt. The Morgan's took the Françoise surname de Avenne, for of Afen, but they died out in the early 14h century.

Snaake said:

P.S. Playing in Wales, i've finally found a use for those couple of lessons of Welsh pronounciation (and some interesting grammar trivia) that a Welsh teacher taught our class for fun once. The class was English literature, and we read the Mabinogion as one of the pieces for the world literature section of the class (world lit was defined as translations into English). :rofl:

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I'm unfortunatly not a Welsh speaker but have studdied the gammer as a hobby. I love Welsh, and it is maybe the second or third oldest language in Western Europe still as a living language. I hope for its continued growth from decline over this past century, and it appears that it is indeed on the rise. I read Lady Charolotte Guest's translations of the Mabinogion almost a decade ago.

I hope you don't mind my saying, but this is one of the travesties of conquest that a Welsh story is taught to a Welsh class as though it was “world” (i.e. foreign) literature. The Mabinogion should be taught as Welsh heritage, whatever language the Welsh class speaks.

Some replies to Drachenfire, but didn't want to quote that long a post...

I usually try to marry similarly-aged characters, not big differences like that (although the definition of "similarly-aged" does loosen when they get older - 45+64 is better than 16+35). I just did it for the laughs, especially as Rhys has such a huge beard and seemed like a real mans man (martial cleric in my game). Although about the diocese bishop thing, I had the Llancarfans (or something, can't remember the spelling): a father and two sons in my court, all with ecclesiastical education (I think they lived in Morgannwg at the scenario start), so no shortage of diocese bishops. The father served as one almost until his death, and both his sons were my diocese bishop at one point or another too, in addition to at least one of them serving as my chancellor initially. I even married one of the sons to my second cousin (maybe once removed), so their family line of loyal courtiers will continue in my game.

From editing the save file, I have a hazy recollection that Rhys would've had the same dynasty tag, but I have no idea if it's the generic one.

As to the matter of Morgannwg vs. Gwent: I might've been hard pressed to conquer Gwent myself in the game, although it probably would've been possible. In my game I conquered Gwent while I was still using the vanilla map of Wales, not the modded one. The point was that Morgannwg is quite a bit poorer in the start.

And wikipedia does also state that the Morgans survived the Normans: there was a mention that Iestyn ap Gwrgants son Caradog remained a ruler in the area, but as a vassal of the Normans.

As to the Mabinogion thing and school: you misunderstand me, something I did anticipate and therefore did pay some attention to phrasing, but: I'm Finnish with Finnish and English as 1st languages (due to living abroad as a child), the school I went to was an international program (IB) in an otherwise Swedish-language high school (Finland has a ~6% minority of Swedish-speakers), the teacher was a Welshman, the teaching language of the program is English, and the class was English literature, wherein world lit was defined as something foreign from the viewpoint of an English-speaking country (USA, England, etc.). Wales is not part of England, and the Mabinogion was originally in a language other than English, so it qualified

Complicated enough? Tried to avoid having to type all that out

I too, hope that Wales will retain it's own language and heritage.

I Realy like many aspects of CK but the total mess that is the map when i enter year 1200 ib ny 1066 is just insane. Is there anything that's being worked on here to prevent the cluster that is the current map.

I dont know if this is the proper place for this but I have been tryin to install a successful version of DVIP and everytime I try to start a game it is saying it cannot access DVIP_conquests, neither the DVIP or Addon contain this file so it is accessing something I dont have?????

Plz help!

In A People's History of England (1938) by A.L. Morton, he notes (p. 58) that:
"By 1069 William was ready for the next stage in the conquest, Mercia and Northumbria were goaded into revolt, and received the support of the King of Denmark."

"Mercia" probably refers to Lancaster, but perhaps Eadwin and Morcar Leofricson should be allied to and/or friends of Svend Estridson Knýtling and/or his son Harald Svendson? (Since the latter seems to have ruled in 1069)

Mrdie said:

In A People's History of England (1938) by A.L. Morton, he notes (p. 58) that:
"By 1069 William was ready for the next stage in the conquest, Mercia and Northumbria were goaded into revolt, and received the support of the King of Denmark."

"Mercia" probably refers to Lancaster, but perhaps Eadwin and Morcar Leofricson should be allied to and/or friends of Svend Estridson Knýtling and/or his son Harald Svendson? (Since the latter seems to have ruled in 1069)

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I believe that they are already both allied and friends, as well as Eadric the Wild (as Count of Chester and Shrewsbury), and Bleddyn ap Cynfyn Mathrafal should be allied with them as well. I'll double check when I get home.

Also, IIRC, all have low loyalty to William de Normandie, in preperation for the Harrowing of the North events.

I started playing this mod without having played the original game so this might be a problem not specifically connected to the mod. If that is the case then i apologize.

I started as the Count of Cornwall thinking that I should learn a little about playing the game before I attempted something bigger (like king of England). My income is about 2 gold per month and that gives my an annual income of 24. Most improvements costs 100 gold so it will take me four years to make enough money to build for instance a fishing wharf. Now, I have no problem with this. The game has a slow pace and I can live with that. What I cannot accept is that so far, about two years into the game, I have had four different events where I have been forced between either paying 100 gold or getting a bunch of negative modifiers. One was something about bandits, another a group of Crusaders that wanted me to put them up, the third some Arabic spice merchants and the last one wanted me to pay for herbs to help the sick (that one cost 150 gold). One of these events (if I had accepted it) would have meant financial ruin for my small realm, to get four of them in just a couple of years is crazy. Obviously I have no choice but to decline and as a result I have lost a bunch of prestige, piety and gained some unflattering traits such as weak-willed, selfish and hostile. This is really taking a lot of the fun out of the game for me since I have no chance of getting anything positive out of these events and my character is turning into a pretty poor ruler.

So, what I would like to know is: Have I been extremely unlucky to get these events or is it simply pointless to play with a small realm since I will never have the money to get positive traits from this sort random events.

Kamagate said:

I started playing this mod without having played the original game so this might be a problem not specifically connected to the mod. If that is the case then i apologize.

I started as the Count of Cornwall thinking that I should learn a little about playing the game before I attempted something bigger (like king of England). My income is about 2 gold per month and that gives my an annual income of 24. Most improvements costs 100 gold so it will take me four years to make enough money to build for instance a fishing wharf. Now, I have no problem with this. The game has a slow pace and I can live with that. What I cannot accept is that so far, about two years into the game, I have had four different events where I have been forced between either paying 100 gold or getting a bunch of negative modifiers. One was something about bandits, another a group of Crusaders that wanted me to put them up, the third some Arabic spice merchants and the last one wanted me to pay for herbs to help the sick (that one cost 150 gold). One of these events (if I had accepted it) would have meant financial ruin for my small realm, to get four of them in just a couple of years is crazy. Obviously I have no choice but to decline and as a result I have lost a bunch of prestige, piety and gained some unflattering traits such as weak-willed, selfish and hostile. This is really taking a lot of the fun out of the game for me since I have no chance of getting anything positive out of these events and my character is turning into a pretty poor ruler.

So, what I would like to know is: Have I been extremely unlucky to get these events or is it simply pointless to play with a small realm since I will never have the money to get positive traits from this sort random events.

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That just sounds like bad luck. As a small realm, you will often run into debt, but if you are careful, you can manage your finances. Starting as a small realm is the only way to play !

After having played for another seven years I have not had anymore events of that kind so it seems it was mostly bad luck. I have also realized that those "unflattering" traits weren't all bad. "Hostile" for instance gives you +1 to martial as well as -1 to diplomacy. I'm going to start a new game anyway since my ruler died without an heir and so I'll see if I have better luck. Funny story actually, I had five daughters but no sons and so when my ruler died at 52 the game ended. Talk about bad luck, I don't think I'm meant to rule in Cornwall .

I was wondering if there was any events that release historical states like Florence or the Ottoman Empire? There was a number of other empires that formed to protect regions and for political reasons, like in the case of the Byzantium Empire. I know that would be a burden on tags, especially since some are used already for the "More Kingdoms" mod. However, the Ottoman Empire already has a tag, so will I see an Ottoman Empire at some point?