Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

Powys 1204: the back-story to the division

Powys in 1204 was divided into Powys-Fadog and Powys-Wenwynwyn following the internal dynastic war between Madog ap Maredudd's successor Gruffydd ap Madog, later known as Gruffydd Maelor (after Maelor, where he established his court), and Madog's nephew Owain Cyfeiliog

Owain Gwynedd ab Gruffydd held a dynastically superior claim to the ruler ship of the whole of Powys over that of his uncle Madog (according to Welsh law and custom), with Madog ruling as regent until Owain came of age. According to Welsh custom, Madog was obliged to grant Owain land and title until he would come of age, and Madog granted his nephew the lordship of Cyfeiliog to rule and provide an income. However, when Owain came of age at 14, Madog usurped the ruler ship of Powys for himself, disinheriting Owain. While Madog lived, Owain was not powerful enough to overcome his uncle.

When Madog ap Maredudd died in 1160, Owain Cyfeilog pressed his claim in law and recovered most of Powys.... the area which would later become known as Powys Wenwynwyn, after the name of Owain's son and successor Gwenwynwyn. Owain Cyfeilog attempted to reunite Powys and reclaim the northern part of known as Powys Fadog.

Under the ruler ship first of Gruffydd ap Madog and then his son and successor Madog ap Gruffydd, Powys Fadog was able to resist Owain Cyfeilog, however under great stress. Through a dynastic marriage between Marared ab Madog with Iorwerth ab Owain, who was 3rd in line of succession for Gwynedd, would produce the eventual heir of Gwynedd in the person of Llywelyn the Great. Llywelyn the Great's father figure was his maternal uncle Gruffydd ap Madog, who assisted Llywelyn's fight against Dafydd the Usurper. Llywelyn was able to recover lower Gwynedd, the Perfeddwlad, and aid his uncle when needed.

By 1200 when Llywelyn recovered all of Gwynedd, he was able to offer greater protection for his maternal cousins in Powys Fadog and effectively vasselized them into a greater Gwynedd principality.

To offset Llywelyn's influence in Powys Fadog, Owain Cyfeilog and his son Gwenwynwyn presumed a dangerous policy of kowtowing to the English crown while attempting to restore their position in Wales.


For the set up 1204 for both maps (it won't matter which map, the set up here works for both):

Powys Fadog: Represented by the County of (the) Perfeddwlad, ruled by Llywelyn's maternal cousin Madog ap Gruffydd Maelor (b. 1191).

Powys Wenwynwyn: Represented by the County of Powys proper, ruled by Gwenwynwyn ab Owain.

These two should be enemies of each other.

I'll add other courtiers soon.

Finely downloaded the game successfully and played a bit! It plays much better!!

A few notes:


1. I added the 1187 character id's for many of the Aberffraw family members I posted above if you want to copy/paste them into the 4th crusade, just add deathdates for them.

2. Character "Gwenllain ferch Gruffydd" id 14721 (she is in the county of Powys) should be renamed "Susanna ferch Gruffydd" and her birthdate should have been around 1136.

3. Character Gwenllain ferch Gruffydd id 14801 should be born 1097, died 1136. Additionally, she should lose the character trait "Amaturish Pettyfogger" and instead have Valorous, Just, and Energetic. Read her bio. She really rocks!

4. Rhys ap Gruffydd Dinefwr, Prince of Deheubarth (and Gwenllain's husband, and I didn't write down his id ) should have the trait "Knowledged Tactician", be Energetic, and also possibly Valorous.

5. Joan, Llywelyn's wife, should have the trait "Charismatic Negociator" and prehaps have her base intrigue stat increased to a 7. Also, prehaps she should be friends with her father. (Disregard my earlier suggestion that Llywelyn and John be "friends" in favor of this solution).


Brittany
Suggestion: Guyomarc'h de Leon, Count of Leon (I dont have his ID with me at the moment) should be of Breton culture. He and his children all seem to have Breton spellings for their names and as Leon is on the extream end of Brittany, it follows that Breton culture would dominate there. Following this point of view, their dynasty name should drop the French prefix de, and should simply read "Leon". There is already a tag for that as either 20017 or 20103.

Constance of Brittany died in 1201 due to complications giving birth to twin daughters Alys and Catherine de Thours. The elder twin Alys de Thours should be Duchess of Brittany from 1201 onwards, and Brittany should at this time be a vassel of France (since 1199/1200) Prehaps
"marry" her to Peter de Dreux, her arranged husband from 1213 and tag her to the dynasty de Dreux?

I have other suggestions but that will need to wait as I compose my thoughts here.

Angivine Empire

Richard the Lionheart should already be married to Berengaria of Navarre (in 1201), id 6501. Also, Richard's fertility should be a 1 or 2 at most given his alleged homosexual relations. Also, he should be friends with Berenguela's brother Sancho VI of Navarre, id 6502. Allegedly, they were closer then was Richard and his wife! :rofl:

I think Henry II FitzEmpress should be a "Tough Soldier" rather then a "coward" in 1187. Why/how does that trait apply for him?

Question: Why was the choice of Angevin decided as the dynastic name for this family rather then the better known Plantagenet?

Then again Capet was also a retroactive nickname given to the rest of the dynasty during the French Revolution


also, here I am again with weirdness from the 1204 scenario

for some reason all of the Bulgarian nobles are of Croatian rather than Bulgarian culture (the provinces are Bulgarian)

jordarkelf said:

Muchos gracias for the info D. I'll get to implementing it

As for Angevin vs Plantagenet -- Angevin is the proper name, Plantagenet is a nickname retroactively given to the members of this dynasty in the late fourteenth century.

Click to expand...

No problem... thank you for the Christmas Present of the 4th Crusade! It's the only scenario I may start playing a true Welsh hero without much outside modification (such as trying to maneuver Gruffydd ap Cynan into a position to reclaim his inheritance in 1066) ... well ... one could play Rhys ab Gruffydd Dinefwr in the 1187 scenario who was also a hero... but he never achieved what Llywelyn did. I'll try and get more sugggestions for Wales and Brittany shortly.

Incidentally, I noticed all of the nicknames you use are in English.... "Richard Lionheart".... rather then Richard Coeur de Lion. This is fine, and please follow precedent with the Welsh too... in 1204 use Dafydd the Usurper, and Iorwerth the Broken-nosed, and Hywel the Poet (or the Bard) (all three are dead by the 1204 scenario start so it is simply styalistic). In such cases it is not necessary to use their patronomyic ab Owain.

In addition, could you use the definite article the when they are appropriate? Such as Richard the Lionheart. Grammatically it is simply more correct. (Don't forget to reduce his fertility to 1 or 2!!)

My personal vote is for Plantagenet if you are open to changing it, but I'm not too concerned.

jordarkelf said:

Well actually I prefer nicknames in the original language... if I know what they are!
As for Angevin/Plantagenet -- if I haven't already, I'll merge the two dynasty tags across the scenarios. Then it's a simple matter of renaming a single dynasty to switch all Angevins to Plantagenets.

Oh, and merry christmas everyone

Click to expand...

*nod*

For myself, I only see the use of Angevin in the context to their lose feudal empire... the Angevin Empire... analogous to the use of Dutch rather then something else for possessions of the Netherlands. In the book store, most books on the kings of England list the dynasty as Plantagenet.

A further note on use however.

In both the 1187 scenario the Plantagent dynasty members would not have thought of themselves as particularly English and, in my opinion, they should in fact be French culture. I don't think Richard ever visited England as King. The Angevin center of power was in Angers in Anjou, and Poitiers in Poitou.

From this perspective I would make those members of the Plantagenet dynasty French in culture, even King John. Though it would be understandable if King John were to be 'English', because once he became king and lost most of their French possession to France this was when the "English" mentality began to assert itself in the national consiousness of the nobles in England.

In 1204 King John is King and prehaps should be "English" by this time to facilitate an "English" monarchy?

More food for thought, if they are French in culture should Plantagenet not be rendered into French as Plantagenêt its a small difference I know. I leave this styalistically up to you.

Further note, if you are going back and adding nicknames, prehaps add l'Emperesse as the nickname for Maude "Matilda", Henry FitzEmpress' mom?

Marry Christmas to you too!



Edit: Correction for 1204 above! I had stated John was not king in 1204 when he was! lol.

This might seem like a really small thing, but you probably shouldn't be able to pick option B in the ius primae noctus event if your ruler is female, huh?

Although I have this feeling it's something one can't fix simply by adding a condition, is it?

Some notes about the 1066 scenario.

-Shouldn't the county of Jülich have Dutch culture? I read it was only Germanized after the 18th century or so, and much of the historical county of Jülich is in modern day Limburg. Here we call it 'Gulik'.
- Willem van Sticht should be named Willem van Gelre, as he was closely related to the Van Wassenbergs/Van Gelre's in the neighbouring county.
- The 'Van Wassenberg' dynasty can be connected to the 'Van Vlaanderen's. Theodericus van Wassenberg, who was really called 'Diederik', was nicknamed 'Flamens', which means Flemish. The connection goes like this:

Arnulf van Vlaanderen (already in the game)
(961 - 987)
Gerard van Wassenberg (not in the game yet)
(980 - 1035)
Gerard van Wassenberg (already in the game)
(1000 - 1053)
Theodericus van Gelre (starts as Count of Gelre)
(1035 - )
- Maybe also just give them the 'van Gelre' last name, since the nephew of Theodericus, who became count after Theodericus' dead, already called himself 'van Gelre' instead of 'van Wassenberg'.

Empty86 said:

Some notes about the 1066 scenario.

-Shouldn't the county of Jülich have Dutch culture? I read it was only Germanized after the 18th century or so, and much of the historical county of Jülich is in modern day Limburg. Here we call it 'Gulik'.
- Willem van Sticht should be named Willem van Gelre, as he was closely related to the Van Wassenbergs/Van Gelre's in the neighbouring county.
- The 'Van Wassenberg' dynasty can be connected to the 'Van Vlaanderen's. Theodericus van Wassenberg, who was really called 'Diederik', was nicknamed 'Flamens', which means Flemish. The connection goes like this:

Arnulf van Vlaanderen (already in the game)
(961 - 987)
Gerard van Wassenberg (not in the game yet)
(980 - 1035)
Gerard van Wassenberg (already in the game)
(1000 - 1053)
Theodericus van Gelre (starts as Count of Gelre)
(1035 - )
- Maybe also just give them the 'van Gelre' last name, since the nephew of Theodericus, who became count after Theodericus' dead, already called himself 'van Gelre' instead of 'van Wassenberg'.

Click to expand...

The van Wassenbergs weren't related to the 'van Vlaanderens', their forefathers came from Flanders (Valenciennes/Valens) though.

Look here

The name Arnulf was just very common in those days.

I think I got it from this familytree:

http://www.genealogieonline.nl/genealogie-database-deunhouwer/I5705.php

So I guess that's just plain wrong?

I believe it's not certain who was the most important ruler of Gelre in 1066. The title went from Gerald van Gelre to his brother Diederik (Theodericus), and then to the son of Gerard van Gelre. However it is not certain if Gerard van Gelre died after or before 1066.

South Wales 1204


William de Braose (born around 1144) should be Lord of Gwent in 1204 standard map, however with the Wales map version he should be Lord of Brycheiniog, Morgannwg, and Gwent (Representing Abergavenny, Brecons, Builth, Glamorgan, and his considerable holdings in Gwent) I would NOT give him the title "Duke of Morgannwg" (Wales map mode) so that he has to work to save funds to create that title. He was a court favorite of King John and should be his friend. He was implicated in the murder of Arthur Plantagenet, Duke of Brittany. The titular Prince of Deheubarth... who I believe is Maelgwn ap Rhys of the Dinefwr dynasty (who should be Lord of Ystrad Tywi in the Wales map mode, and Lord of Morgannwg in the standard map; and should have a claim on Brycheiniog, Dyfed (Pembroke), and Ceredigion in the Wales map mode). I know you have the Prince of Deheubarth as in Morgannwg in 1204 to accomidate the Countess of Pembroke in Dyfed.. and that's great. I have to check to be sure Maelgwn himself is the correct ruler though. The Prince of Deheubarth should have a claim on Dyfed and Gwent for the standard map mode.

William de Braose should have some trait which reflects his vicious nature and on account of his luring Welsh lords on the pretext of peace negociations around Christmas time, then having them masacured. He should be rivals with all the Welsh lords on this account.

His son is Reginald de Braose (born around 1164) and friends with Llywelyn the Great. He was a successful Marcher lord in his own right, though chose instead to become a vassel of Llywelyn the Great, and married his daughter Isabel to Llywelyn's heir Dafydd.


Roger Mortimer (born around 1155) should be Lord of Maelienydd (representing Maelienydd and Elfael) in 1204. He should be married to Isabel de Ferriers (born around 1191) and have four children: Hugh Mortimer (b.c. 1201), Ralph Mortimer (b.c. 1202), Philip Mortimer (b. c. 1203), and Joan Mortimer (b.c. 1204). By the by, the Welsh lord of Ystrad Twyi should have a claim on Maelienydd). I would place Roger and his family in Shrewsbury or Hereford in the standard map mode (where Maelienydd is not represented)

More to come. I am away from my computer so do not know if any of these people are already in game.


*I'm going to email the origionator of the Wales map to see if we can get him to redo Powys, to accomidate Powys Fadog and Powys Wenwynwyn.

*Another note, does it not seem that the shields and armies in Wales are too bunched together? I thought that had been fixed with the shields and armies more spaced out.

South Wales 1187

William de Braose (born around 1144) should be in possession as per 1204.

Maelienydd: Ruled by Maelgwn ap Cadwallon (b. 1160) of the Gwrtheyrnion dynesty (also known as others, but this is the earliest I could track down). Maelgwn should be the son of Cadwallon ab Idnerth (1060 - 1140) (who we see ruling Maelienydd in the 1066 scenario) with Efa ferch Madog, the daughter of Madog ap Maredudd of Powys... sister to Marared ferch Madog ap Maredudd (the mother of Llywelyn the Great, so Llywelyn's maternal cousin). Also, the dynasty that is ruling Maelienydd in the 1066 scenario should be retagged to Gwrtheyrnion. Their history is this:

Idnerth mawr wyr Elystan Glodrydd c. 1040-1055 (Idnerth grandson of Elystan Glodrydd. Use mawr wyr here as I can't track down who Idnerth's father was at present)
Madog ab Idnerth c. 1060-1110
Cadwallon ap Madog c. 1080-1140
Maelgwn ap Cadwallon b. 1160-1196 killed by Roger Mortimer

West Wales (Deuehbarth)

Deheubarth had been ravaged by the Anglo-Normans, with colonists in various key positions within the historic principality, namely in Dyfed by then compleatly dominated by the Marcher Earl of Pembroke (Pembroke... a corruption of Welsh Penfro or "Head Town", or capital, of the commote/district). Dispite this, there were moments when Deheubarth nearly overthrew the yoke of the occupier.

In 1187:

Dyfed: It is correct to list Isabel de Clare, 4th Countess of Pembroke and married to William Marshal, with her tagged to the Marshal family to assure continuity for someone playing her. Likewise, she should be in possession of Dyfed in the Wales map mode as well. The Bishop of St. David's was Peter de Leia, who therefor should be in her court as the Bishop there.

Ystrad Tywi: Representing Dinefwr and Cantrefs Mawr, Bychan and Eginawc, and after the Edwardian Conquest representing Carmarthenshire. He should also be lord over Ceredigion and have a claim against Dyfed held by Countess Isabel of Pembroke. In 1187 the indominitable Rhys ap Gruffydd Dinefwr should be Prince of Deheubarth and ruling from Ystrad Tywi. His traits should nearly also be like those of Llywelyn or William the Conqueror. He nearly recovered all of Deheubarth except for a small strip around Pembroke Castle, reversing the Norman occupation. Had not his son Maelgwn's machinations undoubtedly Deheubarth would have been in a much better possition in the next generation and Glamorgan may have been recovered.

His eldest son Gruffydd ap Rhys II should be his principle heir and in his court, and he should be married to Matilda de Braose, William de Braose' eldest daughter. (Remember William de Braose as King John's favorite and the one who may have carried out the assination of Arthur, Duke of Brittany. Also, William de Braose should be rivals with Gruffydd ap Rhys because of Williams's role in the assination of many Welsh leaders. Also in Prince Rhys' court should behis second son Maelgwn ap Rhys (Malcom, son of Rhys), who may or may not be considered a "Crusader" , but it is doubtful he actually took to the Crusade.

Both Gruffydd and his brother Maelgwn are sons of Gwenllain ferch Madog, the same Madog ap Maredudd mentioned above. Therefore, Gwenllain is the sister of Marared ferch Maredudd and Llywelyn the Great is therefore the maternal cousins of these boys.


By the way... Henry de Abergavenny should be Bishop of Llandaff in 1187 for whoever occupies Morgannwg in 1187... so that would be William de Braose in the Wales map mode.

West Wales 1204

Dyfed: Isebel de Clair Marshal, just as in 1187, along with her should be the Bishop of St. David's Geoffrey de Henlaw (English Catholic, chose stats yourself).

Ystrad Tywi: Maelgwn ap Rhys should rule here

Ceredigion: Gruffydd ap Rhys should rule here, claim over Ystrad Tywi, friends with Llywelyn the Great.

ACHA is a kingdom tag, wich isn't a problem at scenario start because the scenarios all set it to act as a duchy. However, if it gets erradicated and you hold 3 of the 4 provinces needed to recreate it, it will recreate as a kingdom. Maybe it should be replaced with PELO again?

I have just started playing DVIP and an awful lot of the automatically generated relationless courtiers are of the unnamed dynasty #1, which surprised me as that dynasty has no home provinces listed for it. Is that the expected behavior.

Also, I have noticed some dynastic oddities in Scotland:

Gospatrick of Dunbar, Duke of Lothian, is of a different dynasty to his full brother Maeldred of Atholl.
They are also both share a paternal grandfather (Crinan of Athol) with the King of Scotland, who is of yet another dynasty. (Although wikipedia suggests that the failure of Gospatrick's heirs to claim descent from Crinan when the Dunkeld line died out could imply that he hadn't been Gospatrick's grandfather)

Cináed mac Maíl Coluim mac Ailpin dies in 967, three years before his second son, Suibne mac Cináeda of Argyll is born, which though probably just a wrong date, could alternatively be due to the wrong Cináed being made father of Suibne mac Cináeda.

Gilla Brigte of Argyll's eldest son, Fergus of Galloway, is of a different dynasty to him.

Just a question. Is the "DVIP: Wales" just an addon or something completly different?