Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

[Veldmaarschalk]

"Install order:
1) Crusader Kings
2) Deus Vult
3) Latest Deus Vult beta patch
4) DVIP
Optional:
5) DVIP addon"

I install it in this order, but once I get to step 5 my game starts acting weird. (one of the 4 religious choices gets replaced with a law for heirs)

That is Working as Designed, it is a new female-inheritance law and that is the only way of adding it to the game.

[Mrdie]

The Nubian thing is indeed epic. First Arabic names, then Greek names, and now finally their own (mostly Greek-esque, but still ) names.

The only thing more epic is if somehow someone removes the culture limit in a source expansion thing and adds an Albanian culture.

[MnM]

That is Working as Designed, it is a new female-inheritance law and that is the only way of adding it to the game.

When I add the DVIP add-on, Monastic Supremacy and Church Supremacy disappear while a new inheritance law appears between the two. Thus I'm limited to only two religious options.

Is that intended for DVIP add-on and considered normal, where the only way to max church donations in the DVIP add-on is to do so manually?



(also, does DVIP decrease character stats overall throughout the game? I noticed that brides seemed to have less high stats at the start of a DVIP game)

[jordarkelf]

When I add the DVIP add-on, Monastic Supremacy and Church Supremacy disappear while a new inheritance law appears between the two. Thus I'm limited to only two religious options.

Is that intended for DVIP add-on and considered normal, where the only way to max church donations in the DVIP add-on is to do so manually?

There are three, you need to scroll down to see the third (old fourth) ecclesiastical law. I removed monastic supremacy, but regal supremacy, church supremacy, and ecclesiastical balance are still there.

I can't help the location of the law or that it bumps down one religious law out of view until you scroll, it's a GUI issue.

(also, does DVIP decrease character stats overall throughout the game? I noticed that brides seemed to have less high stats at the start of a DVIP game)

What stats spawned courtiers start with is hardcoded. I can't change this, nor would I if I could. DVIP does have events that bump down stats of kids if they grow up with more than 8 in two stats, or 10 in any one stat, since Crusader King is balanced with stats being on a scale of 1 = bad, 8 = good, 10 = super -- and with DV it is very rare NOT to end up with 8 8 8 8 or more characters.

-----

What do you people think of the following?
Just like 1.05 merged the three Egyptian muslim kingdoms into one by also giving the Mamelukes/Ayyubids the FATI (Fatimid) tag and renaming this to 'Egypt', I am considering doing the same for the Turks: merge SELJ (Seljuk Turks), RUMS (Rum), and OTTO (Ottomans) all into SELJ and naming it 'Turks'. This would remove the dynasty from the name, and prevent situations where a non-Seljuk is leader of the 'Seljuk Turks' etc.. It's also a better representation I think, since after all they were successor realms. England doesn't have separate Anglo-Saxon, Norman, Angevin tags either.
It would also free up two additional king tags...

Another thing: it bugs me to have two Egypts. Does anyone know if there was another contemporary term used by Christians for muslim Egypt -- or if not, is 'Al Misr' is the name the muslims used already in the 11th century?

[MnM]

Ah, why'd you get rid of monastic supremacy? That was one of my favorite laws!

[jordarkelf]

Ah, why'd you get rid of monastic supremacy? That was one of my favorite laws!

It's the least used one in all scenarios and events, and I needed to get rid of a law to create the female inheritance one.
I also considered deleting one of the gavelkind laws for it, but all the inheritance laws are needed to model historical countries.

[MnM]

Why's it the least-used? I figured it'd be more popular, since it lets you max church donations and it doesn't screw you over like Church Supremacy does.

Also, why do stats get nerfed so much in DVIP? To make things more challenging?

[Drachenfire]

It's the least used one in all scenarios and events, and I needed to get rid of a law to create the female inheritance one.
I also considered deleting one of the gavelkind laws for it, but all the inheritance laws are needed to model historical countries.

Unless it is used elsewhere, the law used for the Welsh inheritance is incorrectly applied. I am not at my home computer so do not know specifically which one is used there in the game.

But according to historians such as Herbert Lewis, Professor John Davies, J. E. Lloyd, R. R. Davies, amongst others, Welsh succession as applied in the 11th century and onwards was effectively primogeniture.

According to Hurbert Lewis in his book The Ancient Laws of Wales, Chapter VIII: Royal Succession; Rules to Marriage; Alienation pgs 192–200. Though not explicitly codified as such, the edling, or Heir apparent, was by convention, custom, and practice the eldest son of the lord and entitled to inheirit the position and title as "head of the family" from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certin circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim materinal patromony through their mother in certin circumstances

It is this second point in Welsh succession which has caused such misunderstandings by the Anglocentric historians who wished to emphasize Welsh particularism. They did not understand that dividing lower ranking titles amongst junior sons did not equate to the transmittle of the primary title "Prince of Gwynedd" or "Prince of Deheubarth", along with the position of head of the family, to (usually) the eldest son. It did not help matters when some of these junior sons then usurped their elder brothers, junior sons often aided by Marcher lords or the English crown.

So, if no other realm uses the law in game that is allied to Wales, you can get ride of that law.


By the by, did anyone create a fix where AI vassels will adopt this as a succession law of the lord?

[jordarkelf]

Hi Drachenfire,

DVIP has an event where any ruler can adopt female inheritance, regardless of them being independent or vassals.

Also, why do stats get nerfed so much in DVIP? To make things more challenging?

To keep the game balanced. Deus Vult stats are far too high otherwise.

[Drachenfire]

Hi Drachenfire,

DVIP has an event where any ruler can adopt female inheritance, regardless of them being independent or vassals.

Really? I have been gone too long! For last time I spoke on the subject the idea of the AI adopting this succession law was not widely accepted yet!!!! I love progress!

Also, if you were to change the acutal law you use and reintroduce monastic supremacy, then the Celtic lands and Northumbria could all go back to Monastic Supremacy as a religous law, more closely approximating the significant influence of monastaries in those regions.

*Now to wait for full cognatic primogeniture!

Next version is underway, should be released not too far in the future (I left in some minor errors in the current version ).
No promise on DVIP Wales / mapmod...

Could you not just add the Wales map (and subsequent characters, and coa) to the DVIP?


Further edit:

Further followup...

Does this mean that all of the rulers in Aquitainia, Chrisitian Spain, and Burgandy start off with this succession law? All of these realms inherited the principle of male-preference primogeniture from the Visigoths, according to historian Wemple in the History of Women: Silences of the Middle Ages.

[hyme]

do the mongols attack still?

[jordarkelf]

I didn't touch the events, so they should attack when they appear. I seldom get a game that lasts that long though

[MnM]

In DVIP, how do you become Papal Controller? It seems like having the highest piety is no longer enough.

[jordarkelf]

Nothing (can be) changed from vanilla. Same rules apply.
Either get the highest piety, or the best relation with the Pope -- this must be done before he is elected, or before the current PC dies.

[truth is life]

I'm actually reading some interesting books on the Merovingians and their heirs now, if I wished to I could extend the line of several CK dynasties back to 400AD already... but that would lead to needless character spam

What do you mean, needless?

[jordarkelf]

Too many characters will slow the game down. I could easily add a few hundred characters (entire dead family trees linked to a current ruler's ancestor, add a number of displaced dynasties complete with their ancestors as courtiers), but at one point this becomes detrimental to gameplay.
Asides from a few families (such as Charlemagne's), I think it's best to stick to only a few ancestors and restrict adding family trees only to link up separate families, or to reconnect different branches of one (such as how I reconnected the Zirid family across the Zirid kingdom, Palermo, and Granada).

[Calgacus]

As a rule, non-literate societies can't maintain truthful genealogies beyond the great-great-grandfather, so kinship bonds [and hence inheritance] don't often sustain at that point (sometimes they do, but there is huge scope for falsification). I.e., you shouldn't need go beyond 6 generations for gameplay-accuracy purposes (excepting some straight agnatic lines of the top monarchies).

[truth is life]

To keep the game balanced. Deus Vult stats are far too high otherwise.

Was this the stats themselves or their interference with the events assuming 10s were Godly? If so, it seems possible that the latter could be rewritten...though that would be quite a job and I see why you wouldn't want to do it!

Too many characters will slow the game down. I could easily add a few hundred characters (entire dead family trees linked to a current ruler's ancestor, add a number of displaced dynasties complete with their ancestors as courtiers), but at one point this becomes detrimental to gameplay.
Asides from a few families (such as Charlemagne's), I think it's best to stick to only a few ancestors and restrict adding family trees only to link up separate families, or to reconnect different branches of one (such as how I reconnected the Zirid family across the Zirid kingdom, Palermo, and Granada).

Yeah, I was kind of joking You know, how we're all genealogy/dynastic junkies around here...I suppose I should have picked the winky instead in that post. Don't go overboard, but more would be nice.

[jordarkelf]

The problem with stats in DV is how stats are now earned yearly over time by all kids (xcept the ones existing at scenario start). Children gain 1 or 2 stat points every year from 1 to 14 (? Could also be 12... not sure): at least one in diplomacy, martial, stewardship or intrigue, and possibly a second stat point in the same or another skill.
This means they can (and often do) end up with a score like 10/8/9/8 -- which is superhuman.

Note that this is the BASE stat, traits can raise these even further. E.g. prodigy adds one point to all stats, and the completed education traits can add up to 4 points for the main stat, so a character with a good combination of traits in DV can easily end up with a score of 12 or higher in multiple stats, and I've seen scores of 18 and higher... which are so far out of the range of what the game considers normal that they become meaningless.

Events use stats for various means, often with 5 = normal, 8 = good, and 10 = super. If I were to re-weigh these to Deus Vult, it'd be something like 7 = normal, 10 = good, 12 = super.
That in itself is modifyable, but there are also hardcoded checks for these stats which are based on CK values, not DV. For example the demesne size limit, income, assassination chance etc.. These cannot all be modified.

I still hope that we'll get another Deus Vult (beta) patch which slows the rate of stat gain (for example by making the chance of getting two stat points in a year much smaller, and/or by capping it to the age range 2-12), but since Johan is busy with new Paradox projects this is unlikely.

Hence the stat lowering events: they are the only way to keep the game working at least a bit like it should.
The main problem with them is that they are immersion breaking. I wish I knew a better way to make them fit, but there just isn't anything like a board of education in the middle ages that administers standardized tests. If there was, I'd use something like the following as event title and text:

"Grading on a curve: This child's final grades have been adjusted in order to fit a normal distribution."

[Lucasiewicz]

I currently have two advisors in my court with there respective stat over 20. I almost never have stats of advisors going below 10.

After reading your latest post it indeed seems that it has to be nerfed even further.