Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

jordarkelf said:

Calg -- I've gone over your changes, and I must say I like them a lot. I'll definitely use them in the next update!

As for the naming of the scottish tag -- any objections to 'Lowlander'? Would get rid of the implied Gaels-aren't-Scots you seem to object to.

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Lowland is not ideal, but it is the only way to name the culture as far as I can see.

One thing you might wanna play around with is Man. In one of the games I played the Duke of Leinster confiscated the title within a few months. Maybe the relationship between the two should be made less friendly or something. When that doesn't happen the isles thing really falls in place!

Also, the Haraldsson branch of the Ui Imair is largely missing from the game ... which was why I was asking Drachen about ap Cynan above. I can draw up more characters if you like, or you could do so (posted the genealogies above).

A couple of more points. Ui Imair is plural, and should be changed to singular, i.e. Ua Imair. If you're gonna go with my Fife suggestions, you might wanna fix the spelling ... from Macduff to MacDuibh or Mac Duibh (or if you are going with early med rather than late med forms, Mac Duib).

Also, if I remember, the Lapps have Iberian armour ... you reckon you could shift some of the tags around? It does look odd.

I still object to changing the cutural names we have set, Gaelic should represent both Irish and Scottish Gaelic until we get more tags, with Scottish for the latter scenarios. It works best across all scenarios. But I see that does count for little now. I know I do not like lowlander as a name for a culture at all. I will have to change this in my scenarios... please remind me how to change this.

While I agree there is more nuiance to the cultural set up in Scotland, I do not agree with your recommendations in light of the limited cultural tags we have and what would best represent cultures through out the scenarios. I do agree that there are more nuiances.

Additionally, it is important to also have the Scottish tag avaiable, even if somewhat anachronistic, for players who want to play as Scottish but have a naming list such as Malcom, Alexander, James, Margeret, ect. It is a bridge for those players as well. For those players that what a more Gaelic feel, that option too is available with the Gaelic representing both Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

I could argue a simular nuianced approach between the Norman-Welsh of south Wales verses those in Pura Wallia, which I will once we get new tags.

As far as Gruffydd ap Cynan, he was in Norse Dublin until he began his campaigns to restore his inheritance against the Mathrafal house then in control of Gwynedd. In game, he is in Leinster court.

Drachenfire said:

I still object to changing the cutural names we have set, Gaelic should represent both Irish and Scottish Gaelic until we get more tags, with Scottish for the latter scenarios. It works best across all scenarios. But I see that does count for little now. I know I do not like lowlander as a name for a culture at all. I will have to change this in my scenarios... please remind me how to change this.

Calgacus, while I agree there is more nuiance to the cultural set up in Scotland, I do not agree with your recommendations in light of the limited cultural tags we have and what would best represent cultures through out the scenarios. I do agree that there are more nuiances.

I could argue a simular nuianced approach between the Norman-Welsh of south Wales verses those in Pura Wallia, which I will once we get new tags.

As far as Gruffydd ap Cynan, he was in Norse Dublin until he began his campaigns to restore his inheritance against the Mathrafal house then in control of Gwynedd. In game, he is in Leinster court.

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Thanks.

As far as I can tell Gaelic is still representing Scottish and Irish cultures. The only thing that looks like changing, besides distribution, is the awful use of "Scottish" for Anglo-Scottish, which is the equivalent in historical absurdity to using "Welsh" to mean Anglo-Welsh marcher culture. Lowlander has problems, but far fewer than "Scottish". Does "Lowland Scottish" sound better to you?

Calgacus said:

Thanks.

As far as I can tell Gaelic is still representing Scottish and Irish cultures. The only thing that looks like changing, besides distribution, is the awful use of "Scottish" for Anglo-Scottish, which is the equivalent in historical absurdity to using "Welsh" to mean Anglo-Welsh marcher culture. Lowlander has problems, but far fewer than "Scottish". Does "Lowland Scottish" sound better to you?

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I am unsure to be honest of Lowland Scottish is best too, but am willing to try it out. Goodness I cant wait until we get more tags for this.

It is very important, even if somewhat anachronistic, for players who want to play as Scottish but have a naming list such as Malcom, Alexander, James, Margeret, ect. It is a bridge for those players who want to play as Scotland but not necessarily Gaelic Scotland. For those players that what a more Gaelic feel, that option too is available with the Gaelic representing both Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

I say this as an admirer of Scottish Gaelic too. I love Gaelic Scotland and understand very well that Gaelic Scotland is very different from Gaelic Ireland. But our limitations need to be understood, and our audience understood as well.

Drachenfire said:

I am unsure to be honest of Lowland Scottish is best too, but am willing to try it out.

It is very important, even if somewhat anachronistic, for players who want to play as Scottish but have a naming list such as Malcom, Alexander, James, Margeret, ect. It is a bridge for those players who want to play as Scotland but not necessarily Gaelic Scotland. For those players that what a more Gaelic feel, that option too is available with the Gaelic representing both Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

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Well, such players are better off playing Europa Universalis if they really want that. "Scottish" is an exonym and meant alot of things in the CK period. Something from north of the Forth, or even, from between the Forth and Mounth (Albanach), or something Gaelic (Gaoidhealg). From c. 1250 onwards it could also mean something from any territory ruled by the Scottish king. What it was never used for was something specifically English or Anglo-French. So though "Lowland" is a bit anachronistic too, it was at least used to mean that in the CK period. So find it difficult to understand why this would be contemplated, any more than calling the fitzGeralds Irish but the O Neills Gaelic.

Calgacus said:

Well, such players are better off playing Europa Universalis if they really want that. "Scottish" is an exonym and meant alot of things in the CK period. Something from north of the Forth, or even, from between the Forth and Mounth (Albanach), or something Gaelic (Gaoidhealg). From c. 1250 onwards it could also mean something from any territory ruled by the Scottish king. What it was never used for was something specifically English or Anglo-French. So though "Lowland" is a bit anachronistic too, it was at least used to mean that in the CK period. So find it difficult to understand why this would be contemplated, any more than calling the fitzGeralds Irish but the O Neills Gaelic.

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I am not advocating that this mode should be all things for all people. Because the game spans 400 years of history, and the fact of limited coding tags, we have to balance it all. It is only for balance and a sense of 'entry' into the game that I advocate the position that I do, for I do understand your argument and respect it very much. But given the considerations for all scenarios, it is an untenable position and one that will sure to bring up more issues down the road.

Most people that play the game or scenario will not see the difference between the Gaelic cultures, and not understand 'Lowland Scottish' verses 'Scottish', but they do understand the clear difference between Anglo-Saxon England and Anglo-Norman England. The naming conventions are clearly different.

Examples where anachronsitic decisions have been taken include using French to describe the people of Gallo-Brittany, or using French to describe the people in Normandy. Additional examples abound. I am sure other examples may be found.

Drachenfire said:

I am not advocating that this mode should be all things for all people. Because the game spans 400 years of history, and the fact of limited coding tags, we have to balance it all. It is only for balance and a sense of 'entry' into the game that I advocate the position that I do, for I do understand your argument and respect it very much. But given the considerations for all scenarios, it is an untenable position and one that will sure to bring up more issues down the road.

Most people that play the game or scenario will not see the difference between the Gaelic cultures, and not understand 'Lowland Scottish' verses 'Scottish', but they do understand the clear difference between Anglo-Saxon England and Anglo-Norman England. The naming conventions are clearly different.

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I ran the Grand Culture mod, so I'm probably the last person you need to remind about the lack of culture tags. But everything else you're saying doesn't make sense. Why does this mean Anglo-Scottish culture should get to monopolize the word Scottish? I would have expected most people would have been confused to hear that indigenous Scots weren't Scottish.

Calgacus said:

I ran the Grand Culture mod, so I'm probably the last person you need to remind about the lack of culture tags. But everything else you're saying doesn't make sense. Why does this mean Anglo-Scottish culture should get to monopolize the word Scottish? I would have expected most people would have been confused to hear that indigenous Scots weren't Scottish. :rofl:

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Thats not my position at all. No one has a 'monopoly' on the word Scottish. No one should take offense of the use of the word Scottish to describe the Anglo-influenced Scottish culture post King David. For balance, in my perspective it is far more important to represent the leading nobles of the Scottish lowlands and the Scottish monarchy in the latter scenarious as 'Scottish', with the naming list examples per above, rather then Lowlander. Lowland Scottish/Scottish Lowlander is only a compromise between yours and my point of view.

While I understand your point of view, I do not understand why you do not understand mine. While I appreciate your contrabutions to the Grand Culture mode, I did not necessarily agree with all of your positions taken there.

On a side note (and this is ment to be ironic and jestful, because I know you know the history) Scots were not native, rather from Ireland to begin with. As far as is practicable, only the Pics were were the native Caledonians.

Drachenfire said:

Thats not my position at all. No one has a 'monopoly' on the word Scottish. No one should take offense of the use of the word Scottish to describe the Anglo-influenced Scottish culture post King David. For balance, in my perspective it is far more important to represent the leading nobles of the Scottish lowlands and the Scottish monarchy as 'Scottish', with the naming list examples per above, rather then Lowlander. Lowland Scottish/Scottish Lowlander is only a compromise between yours and my point of view.

While I understand yor point of view, I do not understand why you do not understand mine. While I appreciate your contrabutions to the Grand Culture mode, I do not necessarily agree with all of your positions and emphasis.

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I understand that 90% of your concerns rest on orthographic practices in the modern English speaking world rather than medieval culture. Essentially what you're after is names for guys on royal demesne ... bulk of counts were Gaels for the bulk of the CK period, including most of the ones with "non-Gaelic" names. What you're after is essentially a culture tag for the king, some courtiers, the count of Berwick and the 1337 counts of Angus and Moray, all of whom came from the area represented by modern Lothian and Borders region. If you want to push a the lack of culture tags argument, the most sensible thing would be not to have any tag representing "Lowland Scots" (who even being generous didn't exist in 1066 or 1187 ... at least two scenarios!), just use English and use it usefully for Gall-Gaels or Scottish Gaels. But ... if I recall from the Grand Culture Mod ... the argument against that was that it was offensive!

This is jordar's mod. He can name it what he likes, but so long as I'm here I will give him the advice I consider sensible. Your idea for the tag isn't sensible IMHO, and I say that both as having experience remodding the CK Scotland set-up and culture set ups, and as someone with two history degrees, including a research degree in medieval Scotland. Ignoring the offensive side, which obviously isn't important, would it help if I started quoting sources to you? This would really get across why your name suggestion might look so ridiculous to some.

Drachenfire said:

On a side note (and this is ment to be ironic and jestful, because I know you know the history) Scots were not native, rather from Ireland to begin with. As far as is practicable, only the Pics were were the native Caledonians.

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If you think about that, you'll realise it's rather fatuous. No people is native to anywhere is an absolute period. But in CK period Scotland there are natives and incomers. Plain and simple.

Calgacus said:

I understand that 90% of your concerns rest on orthographic practices in the modern English speaking world rather than medieval culture. Essentially what you're after is names for guys on royal demesne ... bulk of counts were Gaels for the bulk of the CK period, including most of the ones with "non-Gaelic" names. What you're after is essentially a culture tag for the king, the count of Berwick and the 1337 counts of Angus and Moray, all of whom came from the area represented by modern Lothian and Borders region. If you want to push the lack of culture tags, the most sensible thing would be not to have any tag representing "Lowland Scots" (who didn't exist in 1187 or 1337 ... two scenarios!), and use it usefully for Gall-Gaels or Scottish Gaels.

This is jordar's mod. He can name it what he likes, but so long as I'm here I will give him the advice I consider sensible. Your idea for the tag isn't sensible IMHO, and I say that both as having experience remodding the CK Scotland set-up and culture set ups, and as someone with two history degrees, including a research degree in medieval Scotland. Ignoring the offensive side, which obviously isn't important, would it help if I started quoting sources to you? This would really get across why your name suggestion might look so ridiculous to some.

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EDIT:

You are correct, this is Jord's mode and we shall disagree on this point until we get more tags. I am sorry for our dissagreements in this matter Calgacus and the patronizing tone it has taken.

I haven't followed this thread - but I recently started playing CK with this mod after several years hiatus - and I noticed serbian muslim rulers in the Baleares and Iberia. Is this intended?

Araanor said:

I haven't followed this thread - but I recently started playing CK with this mod after several years hiatus - and I noticed serbian muslim rulers in the Baleares and Iberia. Is this intended?

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I am sure its not ment to be, but lets wait for Jord before jumping to conclusions. Prehaps he knows something we dont.

jordarkelf said:

Regarding Scotland -- I will not change the way the culture tags are used. 'irish' will remain used to represent Celts and 'scottish' to represent the ruling class that could be called Scoto-Norman, Franco-Scottish, or Franco-Gaelic and is needed to allow for more-or-less correct names for the ruling class from ~1120 to the time of the Stewarts (137‏0+).

Since culture names can't be too long I can't use 'Lowland Scottish'. At the moment I can think of one of the three following:
A) Scottish (currently used)
B) Lowlander
C) Scoto-Norman or something similar

My own preference is clearly 'A', but if there is some consensus for another term it's no problem to use that instead. It's a simple matter of editing \config\world_names.csv

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A is appalling for so many reasons. I'd rather you used Martian. Lowlander is better still than Scottish and Martian.

Is Lowland Scots short enough btw?

I disagree with using anything but Scottish, and know that using anything but Scottish will cause more issues down the road, but for the sake of compromise I can change this in my scenarios. I feel it should be Scottish for the examples I've given above.

My choice is option A.

Drachenfire said:

I disagree with using anything but Scottish, and know that using anything but Scottish will cause more issues down the road, but for the sake of compromise I can change this in my scenarios. I feel it should be Scottish for the examples I've given above.

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Well, if being potentially insulting as well as historically ridiculous doesn't throw you off the idea, prolly nothing will. And I honestly don't see the strength of any of the arguments you've used, except for conclusions other than the ones you are advocating.

Calgacus said:

Well, if being potentially insulting as well as historically ridiculous doesn't throw you off the idea, prolly nothing will. And I honestly don't see the strength of any of the arguments you've used, except for conclusions other than the ones you are advocating.

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Its clear we disagree here Calgacus, Ive annotated my position above, several times. You and I will not get anywhere on this issue, and your patronizing tone is unhelpful.