Lord Blekinge said:
The improvement pack is meant for vanilla DV
Do you perhaps mean vanilla-CK ? If so, then no. The improvement pack won't work with vanilla-CK
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
The improvement pack is meant for vanilla DV
Do you perhaps mean vanilla-CK ? If so, then no. The improvement pack won't work with vanilla-CK
I downloaded this mod but when it started it showed the original title screen for DV. Is this correct? My version number is also shown as 2.0 not 2.1; is this right?
kevster said:
This mod is meant to be played with the latest beta-patch for CK-DV, which you can download from here
DVIP doesn't add a new title-screen and neither does it update your version of CK-DV
And if you have question about this or any other mod, ask so in the discussion thread of the mod and not in this thread.
I have already stated that, just two posts above yours
EDIT
Threads split and merged
Last edited:
I did some characters for the counts of Fife. I'll check see if there are any more relevant names ... tomorrow. I'll use ids between 281001 and 299000 for any new characters I post.
The genealogy is based on that theorized in John Bannerman's article "MacDuff of Fife", illus. on p. 33 (in book Grant & Stringer (eds.) Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship and Community, Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1998).
Does anyone know btw how to alter the display on the kingdom/duchy/county selection screen. I've always been content in the past not to bother with it, but some people seem to be able to work it. Or do they?
PHP:
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281001 }
name = "Giric mac Cináeda"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 688 }
father = { type = 10 id = 6004 }
country = C046
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 991 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1039 month = december day = 31 }
dna = "050502851447097"
attributes = {
martial = 5
diplomacy = 7
intrigue = 4
stewardship = 2
health = 5
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
just = yes
proud = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281002 }
name = "Dub" # forename made up, representing Shakespeare's MacDuff
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 3121 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281001 }
country = C046
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1028 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "05050285000109"
attributes = {
martial = 7
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 7
stewardship = 3
health = 5
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
knowledged_tactician = yes
intricate_webweaver = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281003 }
name = "Der-Ilei" # name made up, representing Lady MacDuff
gender = female
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100046 }
country = C046
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1030 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "08000405030105"
attributes = {
martial = 3
diplomacy = 6
intrigue = 7
stewardship = 4
health = 5
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
pragmatic = yes
proven_dealbreaker = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281004 }
name = "Causantín"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 3121 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281002 }
mother = { type = 10 id = 281003 }
country = C046
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1060 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "05050285040109"
attributes = {
martial = 2
diplomacy = 2
intrigue = 1
stewardship = 4
health = 9
fertility = 7
}
traits = {
just = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281005 }
name = "Gille Míchéil"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 3121 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281002 }
mother = { type = 10 id = 281003 }
country = C046
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1065 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "05050285060109"
attributes = {
martial = 3
diplomacy = 1
intrigue = 1
stewardship = 1
health = 9
fertility = 7
}
traits = {
proud = yes
}
}The genealogy is based on that theorized in John Bannerman's article "MacDuff of Fife", illus. on p. 33 (in book Grant & Stringer (eds.) Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship and Community, Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1998).
Does anyone know btw how to alter the display on the kingdom/duchy/county selection screen. I've always been content in the past not to bother with it, but some people seem to be able to work it. Or do they?
Start a scenario and immediately save the game while it is still paused.
Then copy the lines that start with this
Code:
capital = { 0 1 0 3 4 5 6 7 0from your save game to your scenario.eug file, replacing the original lines in the .eug file
Isles
Thanks!
To jordarkelf, I'll try to help fix the Kingdom of the Isles scenario (Man, Carrick, Galloway, Argyll, bits of Strathclyde and Western Isles)
In the 1066 scenario, you have the following genealogy:
*Sihtric Caech Ui Imair
father of
* Olaf Cuaran Ui Imait
father of
* Harald Ivarsson Crovan
father of
*Ivar gamle Crovan
father of
*Harald ddu Crovan
father of
*Godred Meranach Crovan and Domnall Crovan
There are obviously problems with this. Since Benjamin Hudson is the world's foremost authority on the isles in this period (perhaps with Alex Woolf), I scanned the genealogies (bits of which are conjectural obviously):
I fix the characters and draw up new ones.
If you can hold off updating it, I can even implement the changes for you and upload it here with a changelog.
Veldmaarschalk said:
Thanks!
To jordarkelf, I'll try to help fix the Kingdom of the Isles scenario (Man, Carrick, Galloway, Argyll, bits of Strathclyde and Western Isles)
In the 1066 scenario, you have the following genealogy:
*Sihtric Caech Ui Imair
father of
* Olaf Cuaran Ui Imait
father of
* Harald Ivarsson Crovan
father of
*Ivar gamle Crovan
father of
*Harald ddu Crovan
father of
*Godred Meranach Crovan and Domnall Crovan
There are obviously problems with this. Since Benjamin Hudson is the world's foremost authority on the isles in this period (perhaps with Alex Woolf), I scanned the genealogies (bits of which are conjectural obviously):
I fix the characters and draw up new ones.
If you can hold off updating it, I can even implement the changes for you and upload it here with a changelog.
I've drawn up new characters to make Scotland and the Isles in 1066 more historical. I've add lots of Ailech and Clann Cholmain kings as and when they've interlinked. It's a shame Tir Eoghain (Ailech) is so weak in the game, as it was actually one of the two stronger kingdoms in Irish history. I have these on file and can upload them if you want ... edited into the last version of your mod.
Mac Congail is count of Carrick; his father Fingal is count of Galloway. They are both vassals of Crovan, Duke of the Western Isles. Fingal's father Gofraid is count of Man under Leinster hegemony (this is the historical arrangement, not Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó's son Murchad controlling it directly, which is inaccurate). When he dies Fingal will inherit, bringing it out of Leinster overlorship (accurate).
A descendant of Kenneth II is in power in Argyll, Gilla Brigte. This was based on Alex Woolf's two papers. He is a vassal of the Western Isles. WEIS has been removed from its anachronistic vassalage to Norway. This dates from the time of Magnus Barelegs, not 1066. The Norwegian King should have a claim on it, which I've given him.
I created a duchy of Lothian for Gospatric of Dunbar (added to game by jordar, the game's Gospatrick of Atholl was intended to represent the same guy though following outdated genealogical theory). This simulates the de facto control by Gospatric's kindred of east Lothian, the Scottish borders, Cumbria and Northumberland, and his recognition as Earl in Northumberland a year after the game starts. He controls Lothian, Berwick (capital), Northumberland with his son Dolfin a vassal in Cumberland (explained this above).
Another vassal of Gospatric is Mael Coluim of Strathclyde, who has been conjectured to be the son of Owain the Bald. His only mention in history was as accompanying Earl Siward when the latter attacked Mac Bethad (this is what led to the misconception in later medieval sources that Mael Coluim III of Scotland spent a childhood in England). Recent literature, e.g. Woolf, Broun, Oram, and regard it as far more likely that he is a completely different person from the Scottish king. The Scots do not control Strathclyde in 1066 ... as Mael Coluim is recorded a few years later trying to dislodge Gospatric (with whom he was later allied against King William). It's likely it was under Gospatric's control, but as there is no mention of Mael Coluim of Strathclyde's death anywhere he may well have been alive and well in 1066 ... and I've heard a theory whispered among historians that his descents were the earls/mormaers of Lennox, a semi-independent Gaelic lordship (attested 1200 onwards ) around Dumbarton!
I renamed Martachus of Mar Mael Petair, a historical character who in 1094 fighting for Domnall Ban killed Donnchad II. A variation of this source suggests Mar, but most suggest Mearns ... which are more similar in Gaelic (na Maoirne versus Mar). I added a count for Buchan, taking him from the early 12th century Mormaer named Cainnech.
In my files, I have given Scotland a claim of Lothian county, Lothian Duchy, William claim on Northumberland (which would keep Gospatric as a vassal if beaten by both Scots and English ... historical !). I've given the Scots a claim on Strathclyde too, with both the Scots and Moravians getting a claim on Caithness. As above, I created MacDuff county of Fife out of Scottish royal demsene. For his losses, I got rid of Count "Maldoven" of Angus, a county which was ... unlike Fife, mostly royal demesne, and gave it to Scotland ... which has two counties, Atholl and Angus.
Morcar's realm is thus smaller (never a de facto ruler in Bernicia region), and Æthelwine has been created for the new bishopric of Durham ... the one English bishopric that should without any question of doubt whatsoever be in every scenario. He is Morcar's vassal.
Mac Congail is count of Carrick; his father Fingal is count of Galloway. They are both vassals of Crovan, Duke of the Western Isles. Fingal's father Gofraid is count of Man under Leinster hegemony (this is the historical arrangement, not Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó's son Murchad controlling it directly, which is inaccurate). When he dies Fingal will inherit, bringing it out of Leinster overlorship (accurate).
A descendant of Kenneth II is in power in Argyll, Gilla Brigte. This was based on Alex Woolf's two papers. He is a vassal of the Western Isles. WEIS has been removed from its anachronistic vassalage to Norway. This dates from the time of Magnus Barelegs, not 1066. The Norwegian King should have a claim on it, which I've given him.
I created a duchy of Lothian for Gospatric of Dunbar (added to game by jordar, the game's Gospatrick of Atholl was intended to represent the same guy though following outdated genealogical theory). This simulates the de facto control by Gospatric's kindred of east Lothian, the Scottish borders, Cumbria and Northumberland, and his recognition as Earl in Northumberland a year after the game starts. He controls Lothian, Berwick (capital), Northumberland with his son Dolfin a vassal in Cumberland (explained this above).
Another vassal of Gospatric is Mael Coluim of Strathclyde, who has been conjectured to be the son of Owain the Bald. His only mention in history was as accompanying Earl Siward when the latter attacked Mac Bethad (this is what led to the misconception in later medieval sources that Mael Coluim III of Scotland spent a childhood in England). Recent literature, e.g. Woolf, Broun, Oram, and regard it as far more likely that he is a completely different person from the Scottish king. The Scots do not control Strathclyde in 1066 ... as Mael Coluim is recorded a few years later trying to dislodge Gospatric (with whom he was later allied against King William). It's likely it was under Gospatric's control, but as there is no mention of Mael Coluim of Strathclyde's death anywhere he may well have been alive and well in 1066 ... and I've heard a theory whispered among historians that his descents were the earls/mormaers of Lennox, a semi-independent Gaelic lordship (attested 1200 onwards ) around Dumbarton!
I renamed Martachus of Mar Mael Petair, a historical character who in 1094 fighting for Domnall Ban killed Donnchad II. A variation of this source suggests Mar, but most suggest Mearns ... which are more similar in Gaelic (na Maoirne versus Mar). I added a count for Buchan, taking him from the early 12th century Mormaer named Cainnech.
In my files, I have given Scotland a claim of Lothian county, Lothian Duchy, William claim on Northumberland (which would keep Gospatric as a vassal if beaten by both Scots and English ... historical !). I've given the Scots a claim on Strathclyde too, with both the Scots and Moravians getting a claim on Caithness. As above, I created MacDuff county of Fife out of Scottish royal demsene. For his losses, I got rid of Count "Maldoven" of Angus, a county which was ... unlike Fife, mostly royal demesne, and gave it to Scotland ... which has two counties, Atholl and Angus.
Morcar's realm is thus smaller (never a de facto ruler in Bernicia region), and Æthelwine has been created for the new bishopric of Durham ... the one English bishopric that should without any question of doubt whatsoever be in every scenario. He is Morcar's vassal.
PHP:
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281006 }
name = "Cainnech" # attested in the early 1100s
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100041 }
country = C041
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1051 month = january day = 0 }
dna = "32960225009202"
attributes = {
martial = 6
diplomacy = 3
intrigue = 4
stewardship = 7
health = 7
fertility = 8
}
traits = {
martial_education = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281101 }
name = "Suibne mac Cináeda" # known as King of the Foreign Gaels, patronymic shared with the Scottish king - zone of control likely represents Argyll and/or Ayrshire; a Suibne is in Somerled's genealogy
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100045 }
father = { type = 10 id = 976 }
country = C045
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 970 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1034 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "03122473057811"
attributes = {
martial = 6
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 5
stewardship = 8
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
valorous = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281102 }
name = "Solam" # next in Somerled's genealogy
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100045 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281101 }
country = C045
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1000 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1045 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "04122473007811"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 6
stewardship = 4
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
arbitrary = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281103 }
name = "Gilla Adamnáin" # next in Somerled's genealogy
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100045 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281102 }
country = C045
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1000 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1045 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "04122402000111"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 4
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
just = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281104 }
name = "Gilla Brigte" # next in Somerled's genealogy
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100045 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281103 }
country = C045
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1042 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "04022402040111"
attributes = {
martial = 6
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 5
stewardship = 5
health = 7
fertility = 6
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281105 }
name = "Fergus" # historical ruler of Galloway ... theorized that he may be Somerled's brother
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100050 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281104 }
country = C045
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1065 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "04022410030111"
attributes = {
martial = 3
diplomacy = 3
intrigue = 2
stewardship = 2
health = 8
fertility = 8
}
traits = {
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281106 }
name = "Somairle"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100045 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281104 }
country = C045
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1066 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "04022402030111"
attributes = {
martial = 3
diplomacy = 1
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 3
health = 8
fertility = 8
}
traits = {
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281110 }
name = "Owain the Bald" # king of Strathclyde
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100047 }
country = C047
religion = catholic
culture = welsh
birthdate = { year = 1001 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1045 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "08000007095603"
attributes = {
martial = 6
diplomacy = 2
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 4
health = 4
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281111 }
name = "Máel Coluim" # son of the King of Strathclyde who was in the Northumbrian army that took control away from Macbeth
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100047 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281110 }
country = C047
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1015 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "08000007145603"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 1
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 3
health = 8
fertility = 5
}
traits = {
chaste = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281501 }
name = "Máel Sechnaill mac Máele Ruanaid"# High King of Ireland
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 199 }
country = C010
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 825 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 862 month = november day = 27 }
dna = "04560485025636"
attributes = {
martial = 8
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 7
stewardship = 7
health = 5
fertility = 5
}
traits = {
energetic = yes
generous = yes
knowledged_tactician = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281502 }
name = "Flann Sinna"# High King of Ireland
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 199 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281501 }
country = C010
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 847 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 919 month = october day = 1 }
dna = "04560285005636"
attributes = {
martial = 8
diplomacy = 7
intrigue = 6
stewardship = 4
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
energetic = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281503 }
name = "Donnchad Donn"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 199 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281501 }
country = C010
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 879 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 944 month = october day = 1 }
dna = "04560285025636"
attributes = {
martial = 5
diplomacy = 8
intrigue = 4
stewardship = 5
health = 4
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281504 }
name = "Domnall Donn"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 199 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281503 }
country = C010
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 919 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 952 month = october day = 1 }
dna = "04560203025636"
attributes = {
martial = 5
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 6
stewardship = 6
health = 5
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281505 }
name = "Máel Sechnaill Mór"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 199 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281504 }
country = C010
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 948 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1022 month = september day = 2 }
dna = "04040206025636"
attributes = {
martial = 6
diplomacy = 2
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 6
health = 5
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281506 }
name = "Gormflaith"
gender = female
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 199 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281502 }
country = c010
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 882 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 948 month = october day = 1 }
dna = "04560285015636"
attributes = {
martial = 7
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 6
stewardship = 8
health = 6
fertility = 6
}
traits = {
forgiving = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281507 }
name = "Land"
gender = female
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100047 }
country = c004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 872 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 910 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "08000007005603"
attributes = {
martial = 5
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 4
stewardship = 8
health = 3
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
naive_wirepuller = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281511 }
name = "Niall Glúndub"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 691 }
father = { type = 10 id = 944 }
mother = { type = 10 id = 281506 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 869 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 919 month = november day = 18 }
dna = "04563601076461"
attributes = {
martial = 8
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 6
stewardship = 4
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281512 }
name = "Muirchertach of the Leather Cloaks"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 691 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281511 }
mother = { type = 10 id = 281507 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 900 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 943 month = february day = 26 }
dna = "03563601076408"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 5
stewardship = 6
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281513 }
name = "Domnall"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 691 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281512 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 930 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 980 month = december day = 1 }
dna = "03563601076408"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 5
stewardship = 6
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281514 }
name = "Áed"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 691 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281513 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 960 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1004 month = december day = 1 }
dna = "03563602076408"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 6
stewardship = 5
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281515 }
name = "Muiredach"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 691 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281513 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 954 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 977 month = december day = 1 }
dna = "01560202076408"
attributes = {
martial = 3
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 7
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
modest = yes
clubfooted = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281516 }
name = "Lochlann"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 691 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281515 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 975 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1019 month = december day = 1 }
dna = "07050202076408"
attributes = {
martial = 3
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 7
health = 3
fertility = 3
}
traits = {
deceitful = yes
proud = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281517 }
name = "Ardgar"# This follows one of two theories of origin of the mac/ua Lochlainn high kings of Ireland
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 101712 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281516 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1010 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1065 month = december day = 1 }
dna = "07050202106408"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 7
health = 3
fertility = 5
}
traits = {
deceitful = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281518 }
name = "Domnall"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 101712 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281517 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1048 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "05050202056402"
attributes = {
martial = 9
diplomacy = 6
intrigue = 7
stewardship = 7
health = 9
fertility = 8
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281519 }
name = "Magnus"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 101712 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281517 }
country = C004
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1052 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "06050202056402"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 6
health = 9
fertility = 8
}
traits = {
proud = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281520 }
name = "Dúnflaith"
gender = female
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 691 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281512 }
country = WEIS
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 942 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 990 month = december day = 1 }
dna = "03560401116408"
attributes = {
martial = 5
diplomacy = 6
intrigue = 9
stewardship = 7
health = 5
fertility = 5
}
traits = {
cruel = yes
flamboyant_schemer = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281521 }
name = "Glúniairn"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 20084 }
father = { type = 10 id = 5790 }
mother = { type = 10 id = 281520 }
country = C049
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 960 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 989 month = december day = 1 }
dna = "01560401066408"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 4
stewardship = 8
health = 6
fertility = 6
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281522 }
name = "Gilla Ciaráin"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 20084 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281521 }
country = C049
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 979 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1014 month = april day = 23 }
dna = "01560405060509"
attributes = {
martial = 5
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 4
health = 6
fertility = 7
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281523 }
name = "Sihtric"
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 20084 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281521 }
country = C049
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 980 month = january day = 1 }
deathdate = { year = 1014 month = april day = 23 }
dna = "01560406060509"
attributes = {
martial = 3
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 3
stewardship = 5
health = 6
fertility = 6
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281524 }
name = "Gofraid mac Sihtric"# ruler of Man in 1066 under the King of Leinster
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 20084 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281523 }
country = C054
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1004 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "01060406060509"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 4
intrigue = 5
stewardship = 8
health = 3
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
forgiving = yes
generous = yes
indulgent = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281525 }
name = "Fingal"# succeeder as ruler of Man
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 20084 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281524 }
country = C050
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1022 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "07060406060509"
attributes = {
martial = 6
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 8
stewardship = 3
health = 5
fertility = 5
}
traits = {
generous = yes
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281526 }
name = "Mac Congáil"# attested as "King of the Rhinns", an area approximating to later Wigtownshire and probably parts of Carrick
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 20084 }
father = { type = 10 id = 281525 }
country = C049
religion = catholic
culture = irish
birthdate = { year = 1039 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "05060206060009"
attributes = {
martial = 7
diplomacy = 5
intrigue = 6
stewardship = 4
health = 7
fertility = 7
}
traits = {
tough_soldier = yes
}
}
character = {
id = { type = 10 id = 281601 }
name = "Æthelwine" #Bishop of Durham
gender = male
dynasty = { type = 12 id = 100056 }
country = C049
religion = catholic
culture = saxon
birthdate = { year = 1025 month = january day = 1 }
dna = "09050013010405"
attributes = {
martial = 4
diplomacy = 7
intrigue = 5
stewardship = 7
health = 5
fertility = 4
}
traits = {
modest = yes
scholarly_theologian = yes
}
}
Last edited:
Here are the files, if you want to look at them.
If you want, I have lots of info on potential courtiers for LOTH, SCOT and Fife. I would have done them too, but I'd need to create a bunch of new dynasties.
Alex Woolf btw put up a few of his articles, two of which constitute relevant background reading!
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/history/staff/alexwoolf.html
If you want, I have lots of info on potential courtiers for LOTH, SCOT and Fife. I would have done them too, but I'd need to create a bunch of new dynasties.
Alex Woolf btw put up a few of his articles, two of which constitute relevant background reading!
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/history/staff/alexwoolf.html
Im glad to have you contributing to Scotland Calgacus! What was ever decided on with regard to the Gaelic names list. That is, Irish names list representing both Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic cultral names. Are we rendering them into somewhat 'modern' Scottish Gaelic?
Likewise, we would also want to follow the same precident for Scottish Gaelic surnames (both generic and actual).
Likewise, we would also want to follow the same precident for Scottish Gaelic surnames (both generic and actual).
Drachenfire said:
Thanks! If jordar is receptive, I can do more, esp. for adding courtiers and fixing the other two scenarios. I would like to know if he is going to take a hard line with his use of the "Scottish" tag ... which while I understand what is being done, is too unhistorical.
No, they're not being rendered in modern forms here ... spellings are early medieval generally. And different orthography is being used for the Gaelic surnames in the game as for the forenames, and there's a mixture of medieval Gaelic, modern Irish and modern Gaelic in the game. I guess this makes it little worse than the Russian names, which mix up BGN/PCGN and LoC systems of transliteration. I.e. Yaropolk but Iziaslav (that is, either Yaropolk and Izyaslav, or Iaropolk and Iziaslav). If jordar gives me the names of the Scottish and Irish dynasties I can find a way of reconciling the spellings.
Since I was adding people from the isles. Where is Gruffydd ap Cynan in the game? I couldn't find him.
1187 scenario
Looked at the 1187 scenario. Many mistakes, almost all of which you I know aren't responsible. I like that you add nicknames in this. It is appreciated.
Anyways, Carrick should not be a vassal of Galloway ... but direct vassal of either the Scottish or English crown. Galloway was an independent principality, but they were I suppose vassals of the English and Scottish kings in a certain sense. Lochlann (Roland) of Galloway's younger son, the famous warrior and naval commander Tomás Mac Uchtraigh, is missing. He was important for his fleet of galleys, hired by the English crown several times to fight in France, sacking the city of Derry with the King of the Isles, and becoming Mormaer of Atholl through marriage. He'd be a cool addition. I'd add a character, but he needs a new dynasty ... or I guess Tomás of Galloway could be added.
Alan fitz Walter should not be Duke of Argyll/Strathclyde. Given his family spent the next half century trying to reach comital status, duchy status is going way too far. Alan's son Walter had the nickname "Og", which is Gaelic for "the Small" or "the Younger", which suggests Gaelic culture. See this following article by an Edinburgh University scholar for details:
http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/scottishstudies/ebooks/chap 3 boardman.pdf
If you are intending "Scottish" to mean "English in Scotland", Galloway, Carrick, Western Isles, Fife, Mar, Man, etc, should not be "Scottish" .... only Berwick and Lothian and, at a BIG stretch, Strathclyde (per comments above). Lots of the characters need their cultures fixed too.
Buchanan is not the correct dynasty for the rulers of Buchan. The Buchanan come from late medieval Lennox. Roger mac Colban is highly problematic, but he certainly wasn't married to Eua. The guy married to Eua, was Colban, probably a from the macduff kindred of Fife. Their son would be Fergus (pure hypothesis), which is spelled here "Furhas mac Colhan", which looks like a spelling mistake made by a Ukrainian.
"Rogerus comes de Bouchan" is a name that occurs in a charter copy, reputed to be a copy of a charter granted to the Celi De of Monymusk. It's very suspicious because of a sole mention, and because Roger is not a name known in any Gaelic family. May be a Latinisation of Ruaidhri (Roger would be pronounced "Rau-yer"), but this is normally Rodericus or Rothericus. Fergus does appear to be their descendant (his court is well documented, and contains a high number of native Scots from Fife). Time scale indicates that if Roger did exist he was probably not the father of Fergus. Conclusion? You could make everyone but Fergus dead in 1187, with Fergus ruling (his own daughter marries an Anglo-Norman mercenary commander who, with her, begins the Comyn family of Buchan, with his daughter "Marjory"). Fergus could be aged or rather infertile with his daughter married to William Comyn. I can't tell you what name "Marjory" represents (haven't looked at the Latin forms here, but is usually Marcella or Margeria), but it is commonly used in the period for a Gaelic female name. King Robert I's mother "Marjory" is called "Marthok" in Barbour's Bruce, which looks like Gaelic for "Little Mary" or "Little Margeret", which is roughly what Marjory meant in French at the time. I've always just used Mairsil, though this is the opposite from what is happening here, being a Gaelicization of the French name rather than a Frenchification of a Gaelic name.
Mar: Gille Crist's sons has two Eoins, where one should be a Iacob ("James" or "Jacob").
The count of Atholl shouldn't be a "Duke of Albany". This should probably be royal demesne.
The Isles are a big problem. This is what you have:
* Somerled
** Donnchad (d. 1181)
*** Donnchad
*** Dubgall Screech
*** Uspak
** Ragnall (Duke of Western Isles)
*** Ruadri
*** Dhomnhaill (this is the modern Gaelic genitive with the H misplaced - i.e. donald son of donald is "Domhnall mac Dhomhnaill")
*** Dubhgall
*** Ragnhild
** Aengus (Count of Argyll)
This (you probably weren't responsible for any of it) is full of mispellings and is inaccurate. Per Sellar's article "Hebridean Sea-Kings", the following is accurate:
*Somhairle
**Gillabrighde (d. 1164)
**Dubhghall (fl. 1155) (ancestor of MacDougals)
*** Amhlaibh (Olaf)
*** Donnchadh
*** Dubhghall Screech
*** Somhairle
*** Uspak ?
**Raghnall
*** Ruaidhri (ancestor of MacRuaidhris)
*** Domhnall (ancestor of MacDonalds)
** Aenghus (d. 1210)
** Amhlaibh
** Bethoc/Beathag (prioress of Iona)
McDonalds don't exist in 1187, so shouldn't be in the game (besides perhaps being made Domhnall mac Raghnall's dynasty just for fun!), let alone have two counties. It's the Mac Ruaidhris who virtually monopolize the kingdom of the isles (outside Man) in the 13th century, followed by the MacDubhgalls in Lorne/Argyll. The MacDonald (MacDomhnaill) kindred are a subordinate kindred who don't emerge as powerful until after the virtual destruction of the MacRuaidhri. Raghnall son of Somerled should definitely not have the "mac Domnaill" dynasty.
The count of Argyll is very likely wrong. I.e. Aengus son of Somerled "mac Domnail", in 1187. Aenghus son of Somhairle who died in 1210, did exist, but he is not known to have held much significant land.
Anyways, the Gaelic names list you have contains lots of the same name repeated and spelling that dates quickly ... forms such as Mael Coluim instead of Maelcholuim, Cellach instead of Ceallach, are dated by the 13th century, and the forms of Classical Gaelic (less standardized ... so much variation occurs) are used. Anyways, redid the list for Scoto-Hibernic balance (based on provinces and numbers of provinces) and more consistent and durable spelling (game last until the 1450s):
Looked at the 1187 scenario. Many mistakes, almost all of which you I know aren't responsible. I like that you add nicknames in this. It is appreciated.
Anyways, Carrick should not be a vassal of Galloway ... but direct vassal of either the Scottish or English crown. Galloway was an independent principality, but they were I suppose vassals of the English and Scottish kings in a certain sense. Lochlann (Roland) of Galloway's younger son, the famous warrior and naval commander Tomás Mac Uchtraigh, is missing. He was important for his fleet of galleys, hired by the English crown several times to fight in France, sacking the city of Derry with the King of the Isles, and becoming Mormaer of Atholl through marriage. He'd be a cool addition. I'd add a character, but he needs a new dynasty ... or I guess Tomás of Galloway could be added.
Alan fitz Walter should not be Duke of Argyll/Strathclyde. Given his family spent the next half century trying to reach comital status, duchy status is going way too far. Alan's son Walter had the nickname "Og", which is Gaelic for "the Small" or "the Younger", which suggests Gaelic culture. See this following article by an Edinburgh University scholar for details:
http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/scottishstudies/ebooks/chap 3 boardman.pdf
If you are intending "Scottish" to mean "English in Scotland", Galloway, Carrick, Western Isles, Fife, Mar, Man, etc, should not be "Scottish" .... only Berwick and Lothian and, at a BIG stretch, Strathclyde (per comments above). Lots of the characters need their cultures fixed too.
Buchanan is not the correct dynasty for the rulers of Buchan. The Buchanan come from late medieval Lennox. Roger mac Colban is highly problematic, but he certainly wasn't married to Eua. The guy married to Eua, was Colban, probably a from the macduff kindred of Fife. Their son would be Fergus (pure hypothesis), which is spelled here "Furhas mac Colhan", which looks like a spelling mistake made by a Ukrainian.
"Rogerus comes de Bouchan" is a name that occurs in a charter copy, reputed to be a copy of a charter granted to the Celi De of Monymusk. It's very suspicious because of a sole mention, and because Roger is not a name known in any Gaelic family. May be a Latinisation of Ruaidhri (Roger would be pronounced "Rau-yer"), but this is normally Rodericus or Rothericus. Fergus does appear to be their descendant (his court is well documented, and contains a high number of native Scots from Fife). Time scale indicates that if Roger did exist he was probably not the father of Fergus. Conclusion? You could make everyone but Fergus dead in 1187, with Fergus ruling (his own daughter marries an Anglo-Norman mercenary commander who, with her, begins the Comyn family of Buchan, with his daughter "Marjory"). Fergus could be aged or rather infertile with his daughter married to William Comyn. I can't tell you what name "Marjory" represents (haven't looked at the Latin forms here, but is usually Marcella or Margeria), but it is commonly used in the period for a Gaelic female name. King Robert I's mother "Marjory" is called "Marthok" in Barbour's Bruce, which looks like Gaelic for "Little Mary" or "Little Margeret", which is roughly what Marjory meant in French at the time. I've always just used Mairsil, though this is the opposite from what is happening here, being a Gaelicization of the French name rather than a Frenchification of a Gaelic name.
Mar: Gille Crist's sons has two Eoins, where one should be a Iacob ("James" or "Jacob").
The count of Atholl shouldn't be a "Duke of Albany". This should probably be royal demesne.
The Isles are a big problem. This is what you have:
* Somerled
** Donnchad (d. 1181)
*** Donnchad
*** Dubgall Screech
*** Uspak
** Ragnall (Duke of Western Isles)
*** Ruadri
*** Dhomnhaill (this is the modern Gaelic genitive with the H misplaced - i.e. donald son of donald is "Domhnall mac Dhomhnaill")
*** Dubhgall
*** Ragnhild
** Aengus (Count of Argyll)
This (you probably weren't responsible for any of it) is full of mispellings and is inaccurate. Per Sellar's article "Hebridean Sea-Kings", the following is accurate:
*Somhairle
**Gillabrighde (d. 1164)
**Dubhghall (fl. 1155) (ancestor of MacDougals)
*** Amhlaibh (Olaf)
*** Donnchadh
*** Dubhghall Screech
*** Somhairle
*** Uspak ?
**Raghnall
*** Ruaidhri (ancestor of MacRuaidhris)
*** Domhnall (ancestor of MacDonalds)
** Aenghus (d. 1210)
** Amhlaibh
** Bethoc/Beathag (prioress of Iona)
McDonalds don't exist in 1187, so shouldn't be in the game (besides perhaps being made Domhnall mac Raghnall's dynasty just for fun!), let alone have two counties. It's the Mac Ruaidhris who virtually monopolize the kingdom of the isles (outside Man) in the 13th century, followed by the MacDubhgalls in Lorne/Argyll. The MacDonald (MacDomhnaill) kindred are a subordinate kindred who don't emerge as powerful until after the virtual destruction of the MacRuaidhri. Raghnall son of Somerled should definitely not have the "mac Domnaill" dynasty.
The count of Argyll is very likely wrong. I.e. Aengus son of Somerled "mac Domnail", in 1187. Aenghus son of Somhairle who died in 1210, did exist, but he is not known to have held much significant land.
Anyways, the Gaelic names list you have contains lots of the same name repeated and spelling that dates quickly ... forms such as Mael Coluim instead of Maelcholuim, Cellach instead of Ceallach, are dated by the 13th century, and the forms of Classical Gaelic (less standardized ... so much variation occurs) are used. Anyways, redid the list for Scoto-Hibernic balance (based on provinces and numbers of provinces) and more consistent and durable spelling (game last until the 1450s):
PHP:
irish;female;Áine
irish;female;Áine
irish;female;Éua
irish;female;Éua
irish;female;Órlaith
irish;female;Úna
irish;female;Aíbinn
irish;female;Ada
irish;female;Affraic
irish;female;Affraic
irish;female;Aigneas
irish;female;Aibhilín
irish;female;Ailbhe
irish;female;Ailsa
irish;female;Alis
irish;female;Annábla
irish;female;Bébhinn
irish;female;Bean-Alban
irish;female;Bean-Mhídhe
irish;female;Bean-Mhumhan
irish;female;Bethóc
irish;female;Bethóc
irish;female;Cacht
irish;female;Cairistiona
irish;female;Caisséne
irish;female;Caitilín
irish;female;Catríona
irish;female;Dearbháil
irish;female;Dearbhorghaill
irish;female;Dearbhorghaill
irish;female;Deirdre
irish;female;Deirdre
irish;female;Dubchobhlaigh
irish;female;Echradh
irish;female;Eilionora
irish;female;Eithne
irish;female;Fionnghualla
irish;female;Fionnghualla
irish;female;Forbhlaith
irish;female;Gormflaith
irish;female;Gráinne
irish;female;Gruóch
irish;female;Gruóch
irish;female;Imag
irish;female;Iosbail
irish;female;Lasairfhíona
irish;female;Lucia
irish;female;Máire
irish;female;Máireadh
irish;female;Máirghread
irish;female;Máirghread
irish;female;Máirghread
irish;female;Marsail
irish;female;Marsail
irish;female;Maolmhuire
irish;female;Maolmhuire
irish;female;Mauda
irish;female;Mór
irish;female;Mórag
irish;female;Muirgheal
irish;female;Nuala
irish;female;Raghnailt
irish;female;Róis
irish;female;Sadhbh
irish;female;Scáthach
irish;female;Seonaid
irish;female;Sisuile
irish;female;Sláine
irish;female;Siobhán
irish;female;Slaíne
irish;female;Suannóch
irish;female;Taileflaith
irish;male;Ádhamh
irish;male;Éamonn
irish;male;Éinri
irish;male;Ailean
irish;male;Ailean
irish;male;Aindréas
irish;male;Alasdair
irish;male;Alasdair
irish;male;Ailpean
irish;male;Amhlaibh
irish;male;Aodh
irish;male;Aodh
irish;male;Aodh
irish;male;Aodh
irish;male;Aodhán
irish;male;Aonghus
irish;male;Aonghus
irish;male;Aonghus
irish;male;Aonghus
irish;male;Aralt
irish;male;Art
irish;male;Brian
irish;male;Brian
irish;male;Brian
irish;male;Cailean
irish;male;Cathal
irish;male;Causantín
irish;male;Ceallach
irish;male;Cearbhall
irish;male;Cinaodh
irish;male;Cinaodh
irish;male;Cinaodh
irish;male;Conchobhar
irish;male;Conchobhar
irish;male;Daibhidh
irish;male;Diarmait
irish;male;Diarmait
irish;male;Domhnall
irish;male;Donnchadh
irish;male;Donnchadh
irish;male;Donnchadh
irish;male;Donnchadh
irish;male;Donnchadh
irish;male;Donnchadh
irish;male;Dubh
irish;male;Dubhghall
irish;male;Eóghan
irish;male;Eóghan
irish;male;Eóghan
irish;male;Eóin
irish;male;Eóin
irish;male;Eideard
irish;male;Eochaidh
irish;male;Fearchar
irish;male;Fearghal
irish;male;Fearghus
irish;male;Fearghus
irish;male;Fearghus
irish;male;Feidhlimidh
irish;male;Feidhlimidh
irish;male;Fionnlagh
irish;male;Fionnlagh
irish;male;Flaithbheartach
irish;male;Flaithbheartach
irish;male;Flann
irish;male;Giolla-Íosa
irish;male;Giolla-Brighde
irish;male;Giolla-Choluim
irish;male;Giolla-Críost
irish;male;Giolla-easpaig
irish;male;Giolla-Micheil
irish;male;Giolla-Phadraig
irish;male;Giolla-Ruadh
irish;male;Gofraidh
irish;male;Gofraidh
irish;male;Griogair
irish;male;Iacob
irish;male;Indrechtach
irish;male;Laoghaire
irish;male;Lochlann
irish;male;Macbheatha
irish;male;Madadh
irish;male;Maghnus
irish;male;Maolíosa
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolcholuim
irish;male;Maolduin
irish;male;Maolmhórdha
irish;male;Maolmhuire
irish;male;Maolsheachlainn
irish;male;Maolsheachlainn
irish;male;Morggán
irish;male;Muircheartach
irish;male;Muireadhach
irish;male;Muireadhach
irish;male;Muireadhach
irish;male;Muireadhach
irish;male;Muireadhach
irish;male;Muireadhach
irish;male;Murchadh
irish;male;Neachtainn
irish;male;Niall
irish;male;Niall
irish;male;Niall
irish;male;Niall
irish;male;Pádraig
irish;male;Roibeart
irish;male;Roibeart
irish;male;Ruaidhrí
irish;male;Ruaidhrí
irish;male;Ruaidhrí
irish;male;Somhairle
irish;male;Suibhne
irish;male;Tadhg
irish;male;Toirrdhealbhach
irish;male;Toirrdhealbhach
irish;male;Tomás
irish;male;Tuathal
irish;male;Ualtar
irish;male;Uilliam
irish;male;Uilliam
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Calgacus said:Thanks! If jordar is receptive, I can do more, esp. for adding courtiers and fixing the other two scenarios. I would like to know if he is going to take a hard line with his use of the "Scottish" tag ... which while I understand what is being done, is too unhistorical.
No, they're not being rendered in modern forms here ... spellings are early medieval generally. And different orthography is being used for the Gaelic surnames in the game as for the forenames, and there's a mixture of medieval Gaelic, modern Irish and modern Gaelic in the game. I guess this makes it little worse than the Russian names, which mix up BGN/PCGN and LoC systems of transliteration. I.e. Yaropolk but Iziaslav (that is, either Yaropolk and Izyaslav, or Iaropolk and Iziaslav). If jordar gives me the names of the Scottish and Irish dynasties I can find a way of reconciling the spellings.
Since I was adding people from the isles. Where is Gruffydd ap Cynan in the game? I couldn't find him.
Gruffydd ap Cynan of the Aberffraw line grew up in exile in Dublin. He is currently in game.
I thought the precident was to render first names in the modern spellings? Including surnames... for readability and what not.
Anyway, what do you consider a 'hard line', the point of using the Scottish tag was to represent the Anglo-Scottish culture of the second two scenarios. With Gaelic to represent Irish and Scottish Gaelic through out. This is the best compromise until Ulmont gives us more culture tags in his scenario.
Drachenfire said:
Remember that any changes Ulmont makes to the game aren't 'free'. They will become available through download at Gamersgate. So you will have to pay for it.
That is not Ulmont's choice, but those are the rules set by Paradox.
@Calgalus: thanks a LOT for the info. I'm very open to suggestions (almost all parts of the mod come from contributions by others).
I haven't had the chance to look at your changes yet (currently no internet at home), but will do so. The below might therefore already be addressed.
Names: Paradox uses modern spellings in most cases, so I guess to be consistent for Scotland I should do the same. As long as this is possible -- as far as I know modern Irish and (Scots) Gaelic are fairly divergent, whereas in earlier parts of the CK timeframe they were not.
In general though the cultures should be as follows:
scottish = "scottish english", or 'Inglis'
irish = "gaelic", both for Ireland and for Scotland
Re: Kingdom of the Isles: I actually tried to follow Woolf's genealogy, with two exceptions:
-Godred (Guðred) is known as 'Harald's son', but the records point to Harald's son being one Ivar (also in the geneology you posted). His dates seem very off to me. I can't recall where I read it now, but someone proposed that Ivar had a son Harald, who in turn was Godred's father -- what I have in the game now. The dates fit...
-Domnall/Donald Crovan. Paradox placed him in Scotland with no family connections at all, and I am not sure at all who he is supposed to be! Since I dislike such a thing immensely, I arbitrarily made him into Godred's brother (probably not correct, but...)
As for the rest (correct county/duchy setup, spellings, names etc.), I've no doubt you're right there.
Some of the weird names may simply be because CK-DV vanilla uses a rather weird mixture of english and gaelic names for Scottish nobles, with spellings going everywhere. Whereever possible I changed the names to versions I found on Wikipedia, but I left others as-is and might've made some mistakes.
I haven't had the chance to look at your changes yet (currently no internet at home), but will do so. The below might therefore already be addressed.
Names: Paradox uses modern spellings in most cases, so I guess to be consistent for Scotland I should do the same. As long as this is possible -- as far as I know modern Irish and (Scots) Gaelic are fairly divergent, whereas in earlier parts of the CK timeframe they were not.
In general though the cultures should be as follows:
scottish = "scottish english", or 'Inglis'
irish = "gaelic", both for Ireland and for Scotland
Re: Kingdom of the Isles: I actually tried to follow Woolf's genealogy, with two exceptions:
-Godred (Guðred) is known as 'Harald's son', but the records point to Harald's son being one Ivar (also in the geneology you posted). His dates seem very off to me. I can't recall where I read it now, but someone proposed that Ivar had a son Harald, who in turn was Godred's father -- what I have in the game now. The dates fit...
-Domnall/Donald Crovan. Paradox placed him in Scotland with no family connections at all, and I am not sure at all who he is supposed to be! Since I dislike such a thing immensely, I arbitrarily made him into Godred's brother (probably not correct, but...)
As for the rest (correct county/duchy setup, spellings, names etc.), I've no doubt you're right there.
Some of the weird names may simply be because CK-DV vanilla uses a rather weird mixture of english and gaelic names for Scottish nobles, with spellings going everywhere. Whereever possible I changed the names to versions I found on Wikipedia, but I left others as-is and might've made some mistakes.
Drachenfire said:
I know. I was looking to do more characters for the Isles, but I can't find him. What court is he at?
Drachenfire said:I thought the precident was to render first names in the modern spellings? Including surnames... for readability and what not.
I don't know what conversation you are recalling. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages now with different phonology and different spellings, so using a Gaelic culture makes total modernization impossible. The list I just posted is as modern as one can get .... I do agree modern is preferable.
Drachenfire said:
It's very important to understand that such culture does not in any way exist in the second scenario, so using the tags in such way is just historical fiction. It maybe usable for 1337, but of course it shouldn't be called "Scottish" but maybe "Lowland" or something less inaccurate and offensive. There were endless complaints about the uniquely inaccurate treatment of Scottish culture in the game. The developers/developers' spokesmen, lor bless em, didn't want to address it (either for commercial reasons, or because they were getting bad advice), so they made the Scottish list more Gaelic while keeping it "English". The current "Scottish" list, which I did upon Byakhiam's request, does not represent proto-Lowland Scots, but is a Scottish Gaelic list written in English. A Lowland Scots list would be very different!
A Lowland Scots list would be very similar to the English list, but may have a few uniquely Scottish names like a Malcolm (Gaelic) and an Archibald (Flemish, Arkenbald) and maybe more Roberts and James with less Henrys and Richards, but in this way is not distintict enough for naming reasons to necessitate a separate tag. Honestly, if one is going to use a pan-Gaelic tag and there is a free Celtic tag, it would be better off used for Gall-Gaedhel or Scottish Gaelic than Lowland Scots, as the last is less distinctive in naming patterns in this period.
jordarkelf said:
Feedback!
jordarkelf said:
Paradox tends to, though with the Normans and Scots they picked modern spellings in a different language!
For the list I posted, it's based on Classical Gaelic/Early Modern Irish spellings, with modern Irish used when that's not useful. As modern as one can get. The key thing is to avoid cognitive dissonance by using too many different systems.
"Inglis" is just a Middle English way of writing "English".
If you are absolutely committed to using the tag in this way, I'd suggest "Lowland" or "Lowland Scottish", but definitely not just "Scottish". If we are following the logic of use that culture in whatever provinces English is a significant rather than majority language (so we can be generous to the culture), then I'd suggest the following provinces for
1337
Lothian, Berwick, Buchan or Mar (probably not both), Angus, Fife, and Strathclyde, with Gaelic in Western Isles, Carrick, Argyll, Galloway, Atholl, Ross, Moray, Sutherland, Caithness and Man.
I really don't think it should be used for 1187, but if you must then keep it to Lothian, Berwick and possibly Strathclyde.
jordarkelf said:
No harm I suppose in retaining him as a brother. "filius Haraldi nigri "is probably a Latin translating of "Mac Arailt Dubh", here meaning ancestor rather than son, which would be suggested from the "mac mic Arailt" elsewhere ("son of the son of Harald"), which proves his father wasn't a Harald.
The problem is that I lack a culture tag, so two must be merged. I see a need for five cultures, with four tags.
Vanilla CK has the following culture tags:
saxon: Anglo-Saxon, Old English. Used in the 1066 scenario for non-Norman England
english: Middle English. Used from the 1187 scenario onwards, replaces Saxon, Norman, and Scandinavian by event in England
scottish: "Scottish", used from 1066 onwards in Scotland. Represents a sort of mixture of lowland and highland (gaelic) names I guess. No difference between Gaels and others is made.
irish: Irish (Gaelic), used from 1066 onwards in Ireland
Only english occurs by event, replaces saxon and scandinavian cultures.
Scottish can replace scandinavian cultures by event but exists from the start.
DV changes this to the following:
saxon: also used in the Scottish lowlands that were not gaelic.
scottish: (currently) Scottish 'Inglis' -- the "scottish" flavour of Middle (etc.) English. Used from the 1187 scenario onwards, appears by event in Scotland
irish: (currently) Gaelic, used in both Ireland and Scotland. Does not change by event or anything.
Both english and scottish only appear by event and replace saxon and scandinavian cultures in their separate areas.
---
Another possibility that was discussed at the time was the following:
saxon: Old English, as per DVIP
english: Middle English, used in both England and Scottish lowlands by event
scottish: Scots Gaelic, used for the Scots highlands only.
irish: as per CK-DV vanilla
I can't really tell you why I decided on merging the two celtic cultures as apposed to merging english+lowland scottish, but you can probably blame it on my background: I am much more familiar with the difference in naming between Scotland and England (Alexander, Malcolm vs Henry, William) than that between Ireland and Celtic Scotland!
I completely defer the decision to you here, as you're the Scotland expert. It's a matter of deciding what is more important: distinctive names between Gaelic Scotland and Ireland, or distinctive names between germanic Scotland and England. Either case has problems
Vanilla CK has the following culture tags:
saxon: Anglo-Saxon, Old English. Used in the 1066 scenario for non-Norman England
english: Middle English. Used from the 1187 scenario onwards, replaces Saxon, Norman, and Scandinavian by event in England
scottish: "Scottish", used from 1066 onwards in Scotland. Represents a sort of mixture of lowland and highland (gaelic) names I guess. No difference between Gaels and others is made.
irish: Irish (Gaelic), used from 1066 onwards in Ireland
Only english occurs by event, replaces saxon and scandinavian cultures.
Scottish can replace scandinavian cultures by event but exists from the start.
DV changes this to the following:
saxon: also used in the Scottish lowlands that were not gaelic.
scottish: (currently) Scottish 'Inglis' -- the "scottish" flavour of Middle (etc.) English. Used from the 1187 scenario onwards, appears by event in Scotland
irish: (currently) Gaelic, used in both Ireland and Scotland. Does not change by event or anything.
Both english and scottish only appear by event and replace saxon and scandinavian cultures in their separate areas.
---
Another possibility that was discussed at the time was the following:
saxon: Old English, as per DVIP
english: Middle English, used in both England and Scottish lowlands by event
scottish: Scots Gaelic, used for the Scots highlands only.
irish: as per CK-DV vanilla
I can't really tell you why I decided on merging the two celtic cultures as apposed to merging english+lowland scottish, but you can probably blame it on my background: I am much more familiar with the difference in naming between Scotland and England (Alexander, Malcolm vs Henry, William) than that between Ireland and Celtic Scotland!
I completely defer the decision to you here, as you're the Scotland expert. It's a matter of deciding what is more important: distinctive names between Gaelic Scotland and Ireland, or distinctive names between germanic Scotland and England. Either case has problems
jordarkelf said:The problem is that I lack a culture tag, so two must be merged. I see a need for five cultures, with four tags.
Vanilla CK has the following culture tags:
saxon: Anglo-Saxon, Old English. Used in the 1066 scenario for non-Norman England
english: Middle English. Used from the 1187 scenario onwards, replaces Saxon, Norman, and Scandinavian by event in England
scottish: "Scottish", used from 1066 onwards in Scotland. Represents a sort of mixture of lowland and highland (gaelic) names I guess. No difference between Gaels and others is made.
irish: Irish (Gaelic), used from 1066 onwards in Ireland
Only english occurs by event, replaces saxon and scandinavian cultures.
Scottish can replace scandinavian cultures by event but exists from the start.
DV changes this to the following:
saxon: also used in the Scottish lowlands that were not gaelic.
scottish: (currently) Scottish 'Inglis' -- the "scottish" flavour of Middle (etc.) English. Used from the 1187 scenario onwards, appears by event in Scotland
irish: (currently) Gaelic, used in both Ireland and Scotland. Does not change by event or anything.
Both english and scottish only appear by event and replace saxon and scandinavian cultures in their separate areas.
---
Another possibility that was discussed at the time was the following:
saxon: Old English, as per DVIP
english: Middle English, used in both England and Scottish lowlands by event
scottish: Scots Gaelic, used for the Scots highlands only.
irish: as per CK-DV vanilla
I can't really tell you why I decided on merging the two celtic cultures as apposed to merging english+lowland scottish, but you can probably blame it on my background: I am much more familiar with the difference in naming between Scotland and England (Alexander, Malcolm vs Henry, William) than that between Ireland and Celtic Scotland!
I completely defer the decision to you here, as you're the Scotland expert. It's a matter of deciding what is more important: distinctive names between Gaelic Scotland and Ireland, or distinctive names between germanic Scotland and England. Either case has problems
In all historical case, save Orkney and Shetland way into the EUIII period, Scandinavian culture gives way to Gaelic culture in Scotland, not English culture. Hence, it is very unhistorical to have an event firing like that.
I don't mind so much Lowland Scotland having its own tag ... just as long as it's not used anachronistically and not used in an offensively inaccurate way (i.e. calling it "Scottish"). The main reason I merged it with English (rather than Scottish with Irish) in the GCM is because timelines and because of the Celtic tag animation, more appropriate to a Celtic culture than an Anglo-Frankish one.
Problems as you say exist either way. One of the problems it doesn't solve which some seem to think it solves is the culture of the rulers in 1187. They weren't Gaelic or English/Lowland Scottish, they were firmly French in culture. Using the French tag though results in an even more improbable series of names. In reality, the decision to determine names purely by culture is the biggest flaw that we cannot solve. People named their kinds according to their family naming tradition and social circumstances, like naming after a saint they loved or a social superior (as with King David I naming his son Henry after his overlord Henry I). This could follow a "ethnic pattern" in isolated "communication communities", but it is purely coincidental. The solution, unrealisable, would be to determine names by dynasty or to have the game react to previous naming patterns in the dynasty and to liege-vassal relations.
These would be the ideal tags:
SCOTTISH: Scottish Gaels north of the Forth in all scenarios
IRISH: Irish Gaels
GALL-GAEDHIL: Gaels of Western Isles, Man, Argyll, Galloway and Carrick, plus Dublin in 1066 scenario.
SCOTO-NORMAN: names for Scottish kings in and some of their followers in 1187 scenario, tied into an event firing in 1250
LOWLAND SCOTTISH: The Scottish English-speaking culture of 1250 onwards.
This would solve it, but we need far more hardcoded tags.
There does seem to be many who want a Lowland Scottish tag ... Like I said, what is done doesn't bother me as long as the bad things are avoided (see above).
The Highlands don't exist as a concept until near the end of CK period. This is an endless source of annoyance for me, esp. from the developers. The developers have went on wikipedia or something and found Highland regional council and made that their boundary, even though half of the Highlands are not in that council area (Veld seems to have done this too in his mod). In EU III, they continued to do this, messing up Scotland drastically, even though they were told of the error several times in advance, so they have no excuses. :wacko: The game has absurdly unrealistic provinces, and half of the early modern Highland area is Lowland Scottish in culture. C'est la vie. Just a game I guess.
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We are back at the beginning again.
Two cultures need to be merged to best represent the split here. Using the Irish tag as Gaelic for both Scottish and Irish Gaelic is the best option. Especially as the Scottish names list of the latter two scenarios is and should be much different then the 1066 scenario.
The Scottish tag should be used for the Anglo-Norman influenced Scottish culture in the Battle of Hattin and Hundred Years War Scenario. I do not like using 'lowland' before the Scottish tag.
Until we get more tags, this is the best option. With the current cultures set up for the British isles. I like what we have in place over any other options. Considering that we do not presently have any more culture tags, this is best. Now, I am all in favor of representing all the cultures that we can, even Manx and Cornish, however we do not have the tags for this.
@Veld: Aye, I expect Ill have to pay and thats ok so long as I can finely play with absolute cognatic primogeniture.
Two cultures need to be merged to best represent the split here. Using the Irish tag as Gaelic for both Scottish and Irish Gaelic is the best option. Especially as the Scottish names list of the latter two scenarios is and should be much different then the 1066 scenario.
The Scottish tag should be used for the Anglo-Norman influenced Scottish culture in the Battle of Hattin and Hundred Years War Scenario. I do not like using 'lowland' before the Scottish tag.
Until we get more tags, this is the best option. With the current cultures set up for the British isles. I like what we have in place over any other options. Considering that we do not presently have any more culture tags, this is best. Now, I am all in favor of representing all the cultures that we can, even Manx and Cornish, however we do not have the tags for this.
@Veld: Aye, I expect Ill have to pay and thats ok so long as I can finely play with absolute cognatic primogeniture.
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Drachenfire said:
Well, Scottish names in 1066 are more different from Irish names in 1066 than Anglo-Scottish names are from English names in 1337. So the reasoning doesn't make any sense. If you simply want that more then that's fine I guess, but naming isn't a good reason.
Like I already said fity times or something it didn't exist in the 1187 scenario. Why do you want it called "Scottish" btw? I've already told you many reasons why you shouldn't. Have I missed something here? If you wanna create fantasy land ... then fair enough ... just don't go around saying it's accurate.
I'm aware of how few tags we have btw. Thanks. :rofl: