Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

jordarkelf said:

Any province in Scotland which is Saxon or Scandinavian in culture, unless ruled by a Saxon. Gaelic provinces will need to be converted by normal means.

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I don't remember what provinces were given what culture by the game, as I've been using the GCM for yonks. If I remember correctly though, Caithness, Sutherland and Galloway were given Norse culture in the game, and none of these ever became English speaking in the CK timeframe.

jordarkelf said:

Even if this leads to them getting names from that naming list? Cultures are primarily used to get the right name list in CK for rulers, and having a French or Norman king of Scotland will lead to Scotland turning French or Norman over time. Isn't it better here to add some Scoto-Norman names to the Scottish list, and make the dynasty Scottish in culture?

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The French tag covers a large number of family naming patterns, so it'll cover no one family well. Doesn't change the fact that 13th century English and Scottish kings were French rather than English or Gaelic speakers. I don't think any of the naming lists yield normal names. From your event firing only six names are used for kings, William, Alexander, John Robert, David and James. Similar small range for all European monarchs. You have to accept these lists have faults. Names weren't done by culture, but family tradition. The actual purpose of these naming lists seems to be to give modern cultural groups OWNERSHIP of medieval cultures, and most of the lists are anachronistic. The "Polish" and "Czech" kings like German names ... but if you "translate" these names into these modern languages, you can shuffle this out. Scotland's problem is that it's modern language is different. If Scotland was still Gaelic speaking William would be Uilleam, Alexander Alasdair, David Daibhidh, etc, just as Heinrich is Henryk, Ludwig is Ludwik, Sigmund Zygmunt, etc.

The best way to simulate Lowland Scottish names is using the English tag. Scottish Gaelic naming patterns differed far more from Irish Gaelic naming patterns than the Scoto-English names differed from English names. As also Scottish is a Celtic tag, you should be using that for Scottish Gaelic names rather than Scoto-English ones, esp. as they have more provinces throughout the game. This is besides the fact that it is more historical. Your mod though.

jordarkelf said:

I'll rename the dynasty to that then... would at least fix the problem of a mediaeval first name and a modern last name.

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Still think you'd be better using Mac Ailpin, more in sync with the culture of the era.

Calgacus said:

Still think you'd be better using Mac Ailpin, more in sync with the culture of the era.

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Well in my games I shall rename them Dùn Chailleann, for me it both reads and rolls off the tongue better, hehe. And all that bit about popular monarchy.

I do this with the Plantagenet dynasty too... change the Angevin dynasty to Plantagenet anways.

Drachenfire said:

Well in my games I shall rename them Dùn Chailleann, for me it both reads and rolls off the tongue better, hehe. And all that bit about popular monarchy.

I do this with the Plantagenet dynasty too... change the Angevin dynasty to Plantagenet anways.

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What could be done, and it's probably better, is do what is done for the Welsh and almost every other European people ... namely use modern forms. These are the forms in my game atm, e.g. Maol Chaluim rather than Mael Coluim, etc.

jordarkelf said:

@Hasimir: Ruben Rubinid has his dynasty and title in 1066 for playability reasons.

His descendants are the Rubinids, a new dynasty that had no claims to the Bagratuni titles, so he should have the same one. Otherwise either his children will be of the 'wrong' dynasty, or as a player it is gameover if a wrong dynasty inherits. Something I want to avoid as much as possible.
While it is true that the Rubenids did not become independent until 1080 in the area (after a rebellion), they already held lands there prior to that, and Ruben (or Roupen) was probably the highest lord in the region before and after Philaretos. So here the setup is probably correct, as Philaretos did not hold any titles until after Manzikert.

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Too much "probably" in your last sentences But you may be right. We haven't enough sources on this area.

Otherwise, what do you think of my previous proposals concerning the Almoravids ?

jordarkelf said:

DVIP 9.21 depends on the second 2.1 beta patch.

Suggested install order for a clean install:
1) CK
2) Deus Vult
3) 2.1 beta patch 2
4) DVIP 9.21

Suggested install order for existing DVIP installs:
Apply the second beta patch to your game overwriting all files, and then apply DVIP 9.21 on top of it, again overwriting.

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Can the other mods, MK and break free, be installed as well?

What about the reg fix that can be down loaded on gamers gate for Deus Vault?

Thanks in advance

jamo said:

Can the other mods, MK and break free, be installed as well?

What about the reg fix that can be down loaded on gamers gate for Deus Vault?

Thanks in advance

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This part of the forum is just for uploading files, discuss this mod here

jordarkelf said:

DVIP 9.21 depends on the second 2.1 beta patch.

Suggested install order for a clean install:
1) CK
2) Deus Vult
3) 2.1 beta patch 2
4) DVIP 9.21

Suggested install order for existing DVIP installs:
Apply the second beta patch to your game overwriting all files, and then apply DVIP 9.21 on top of it, again overwriting.

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Hi!

I was wondering if I should make a copy of CK and install this mod there.

Do I need to do the advanced install for the break free mod if Im only using DVIP 9.21 and mre provinces

Could someone let me know if the registry fix patch for Deus Vault (from Gamers Gate) is relevant?

Thanks to whoever does all this work with the mods.

They are always a great extension to Paradox games

J

Thanks Jordarkelf,

I just copied the whole of CK and DV together as I already had that installed.

The Mainpage screen does not show a credit for DVIP however just DV 2.1 beta, is that WAD?

Jamo

jamo said:

Thanks Jordarkelf,

I just copied the whole of CK and DV together as I already had that installed.

The Mainpage screen does not show a credit for DVIP however just DV 2.1 beta, is that WAD?

Jamo

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That little piece of information is stored in the .exe file and this mod doesn't change the . exe file. So yes, you can say it is WAD

One province, jordarkelf, that could change culture in the 1187 scenario could be Strathclyde. The region depicted looks more like Lennox, which was completely Gaelic-speaking (save the burgh of Dumbarton) into the modern period, but it is called Strathclyde, which changed culture from Celtic to English sometime between 1150 and 1300, and that settlement did begin earlier than anywhere else save the already English provinces. If you really want to change one, it would be that one.

Calgacus said:

One province, jordarkelf, that could change culture in the 1187 scenario could be Strathclyde. The region depicted looks more like Lennox, which was completely Gaelic-speaking (save the burgh of Dumbarton) into the modern period, but it is called Strathclyde, which changed culture from Celtic to English sometime between 1150 and 1300, and that settlement did begin earlier than anywhere else save the already English provinces. If you really want to change one, it would be that one.

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Finally decided to put your files over the default ones. Looked at the 1066 scenario for Scotland. Here are my suggestions:

1) Get rid of "Maldred of Atholl": i) probably a genealogical fiction ... Cospatric was the son of Maldred of Crinan, but the last part is the only evidence to connect him to Crinan father of Donnchad and thus the royal family. Probably just another Crinan of that name. ii) he was dead in 1066; iii) didn't control Galloway. I'll suggest alternative ownerships for Carrick and Galloway below.

2) You have two Gospatrics, one ruling Berwick called "Gospatric of Atholl" and another ruling Cumberland called "Gospatric of Dunbar". They are not different. The real Gospatric, Gospatric Earl of Northumbria should control the provinces of Strathclyde, Lothian, Berwick and Cumberland and have a claim to the earldom (Duchy) of Northumberland. He could use Duke of Lothian to simulate his status. You could put his son Dolfin as a vassal in CUmberland, as DOlfin was the rule when William Rufus expelled him from Carlisle.

3) Carrick and Galloway are Irish Sea Norse-Gaelic regions with nothing to do with the Kingdom of Alba until later. Put in charged of Carrick "Mac Congail".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Rhinns
For the sake of genealogical convenience you can follow Benjamin Hudson's argument that Mac Congaill was the son of of Fingal mac Gofraid (son of Sitric). Galloway you could either give to Mac Congaill, or to someone else in the Manx-Dublin family (who definitely ruled it). Godred Crovan for instance or his son Lagman.

4) Godred Crovan's dad is called "Harald ddu"; i assume Harald Dub is meant, yeah?

5) These Norse-Gaels, in Galloway, Man, Hebrides, etc, are Gaelic speakers of Norse paternal lineage who sometimes learned Norse, so is their population. You can't have both the provinces and the rulers Norwegian ... just doesn't represent the dynamics very well.

6) You don't have to use weird malformed spellings drawn from Anglo-Latin documents you know! Martachus is Muirchertach ... but this guy is just a name from a charter of the 1110s. Here's the list of known mormaers of Mar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Mar#Early_mormaers_or_earls
I suggest you should use for Martachus this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Máel_Petair_of_Mearns
You'll see why when you read. Mar btw is situated where Mearns actually is. Put a placeholder in Buchan, call him Cainnech and make him you per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Buchan#Early_Mormaers.2FEarls_of_Buchan
Make him a vassal of Scotland.

7) Your count of Atholl, Mael Muire, is written as Mael miur.

8) Maldoven of Angus is fictional, as is his genealogy.

9) Suggested reorganization of Scotland in 1066:
i) Mael Coluim should lose Lothian, Fife and Strathclyde.
ii) He should gain Atholl (definitely the capital province, containing in CK Dunkeld, Scone, and most other early royal centers).
iii) He should gain Angus.
iv) He could gain Argyll, prolly for the best
v) Gain a claim on Duke of Lothian (Gospatric), County of Strathclyde and Lothian, but not Berwick (he will gain overlordship with Duchy).
vi) give Cospatric a claim of Duke of Northumberland, counties of Westmorland and Nothumberland.
vii) Remove the duchy of Albany. This just means Scotland in this period, and there is no need for it at this stage.

These things correspond with current historiography, see for instance Alex Woolf, From Pictland to Alba

Other things you could do to inprove the historical dynamic:

10) Make Durham a bishopric (definitely), subject to York (if existing). Durham was a proper-Prince bishopric. It's ruler was the bishop, not the early ... that's the very definition of County Durham

11) Create the Mac Duib (Macduff) family for Fife.

You could also consider:
12) Make York an archbishopric
13) Make Kent an archbishopric

Kingdom of Spain?

Hi there!

First of all: Being a fairly new player of DV and the DVIP, I would like to express my gratitude to everyone who made this great expansion possible - Thank you!

Then: I am not sure whether this has been suggested and answered before and I really do not know anything about DV modding. That being said, I have this question:

Would it be possible to add the Kingdom of Spain into the game for players who manage to dominate the Iberian Peninsula? I know that counties can only belong to one kingdom, so that Spain would have to replace the other kingdoms if it were done that way. So my question is:
Could a series of 3 events be implemented, in which the first checks for a character to be king of Leon, Castille, Aragon (and possibly Navarre) and the awards the Kingship of Spain (plus a Prestige bonus) to that character. The second event could then remove the other kingship, while the third adds them back in. That way, the in-game kingships are still in place and attached to the correct character, but the 'superior' kingdom of Spain gets first place and is mentioned first, determines the CoA, etc.

Can this be done or am I just advertising my lack of understanding of game mechanics?

Gunnar

Can't be done, every province can only belong to one kingdom. So it is either the kingdoms of Castille, Leon, Navarra and Aragon or the kingdom of Spain, you can't have both.

Also you can't give somebody a specific title through an event

Calgacus said:

Finally decided to put your files over the default ones. Looked at the 1066 scenario for Scotland. Here are my suggestions:


9) Suggested reorganization of Scotland in 1066:
i) Mael Coluim should lose Lothian, Fife and Strathclyde.
ii) He should gain Atholl (definitely the capital province, containing in CK Dunkeld, Scone, and most other early royal centers).
iii) He should gain Angus.
iv) He could gain Argyll, prolly for the best
v) Gain a claim on Duke of Lothian (Gospatric), County of Strathclyde and Lothian, but not Berwick (he will gain overlordship with Duchy).
vi) give Cospatric a claim of Duke of Northumberland, counties of Westmorland and Nothumberland.
vii) Remove the duchy of Albany. This just means Scotland in this period, and there is no need for it at this stage.

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I am uncertin about the hightlighted portions. Should not Dùn Phàrlain (Dunfermline) in Fife be the capital? Yes, Scone was the ceremonial site of the enthronement of Scotland's kings. But by 1066 the center of power was in Dunferline. I have no point of view on your other suggestions.

Drachenfire said:

I am uncertin about the hightlighted portions. Should not Dùn Phàrlain (Dunfermline) in Fife be the capital? Yes, Scone was the ceremonial site of the enthronement of Scotland's kings. But by 1066 the center of power was in Dunferline. I have no point of view on your other suggestions.

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Dunfermline was one of many royal centres. Scone was the principal seat of the kingdom (that's why it was the ceremonial centre and that's why Perth was built). The reason you prolly think of it like that is because that's where the cult of St Margaret developed.

will the improvement pack work with vanilla DV?