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I prefer the current setup in Brittany as it makes Hoel about equally powerful as his wife -- he has two counties, she only one, but holds the ducal title.
Any change in this, and we might as well merge Hoel's counties of Cornwall and Nantes with the ducal demesne (i.e. add them to BRIT and move Hoel to his wife's court). Not that there is anything inheritingly wrong with that setup, but it belies the power Hoel held in Brittany -- I'd have to make him duke again. And that means stripping Hawiz of her power...
See the problem?

Since the map is the one thing I can't change, it's a careful selection of what to abstract away.
In Brittany this means the following:
Rennes -- is it more important as the capital, or as the county of Jafrez Grenonat? If the latter, what should become the capital?
Vannes -- is the ducal demesne more important than the viscounty?

If Alan Fergant inherites both his parents, he can redistribute a county to Jafrez Grenonat.

---

Which reminds me of something else -- CK has a third son of Conan, Rivallon (ID 10046). Can this possibly be Rivallon of Dol (a county not on the CK map, would lie either in Rennes or Avranches)?
If so, I think his parentage is incorrect. Rivallon of Dol fought Conan II together with Willy the Conker's help, and I can't find info placing him as Conan's brother.


Sources like this page and French wiki suggest that this Rivallon is supposed to be Rhiwallon of Dol, who might be dead in 1066. His (missing) son Jean is an ancestor of the Stewarts of Scotland.
 
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jordarkelf said:
I prefer the current setup in Brittany as it makes Hoel about equally powerful as his wife -- he has two counties, she only one, but holds the ducal title.
Any change in this, and we might as well merge Hoel's counties of Cornwall and Nantes with the ducal demesne (i.e. add them to BRIT and move Hoel to his wife's court). Not that there is anything inheritingly wrong with that setup, but it belies the power Hoel held in Brittany -- I'd have to make him duke again. And that means stripping Hawiz of her power...
See the problem?

Since the map is the one thing I can't change, it's a careful selection of what to abstract away.
In Brittany this means the following:
Rennes -- is it more important as the capital, or as the county of Jafrez Grenonat? If the latter, what should become the capital?
Vannes -- is the ducal demesne more important than the viscounty?

If Alan Fergant inherites both his parents, he can redistribute a county to Jafrez Grenonat.

---

Which reminds me of something else -- CK has a third son of Conan, Rivallon (ID 10046). Can this possibly be Rivallon of Dol (a county not on the CK map, would lie either in Rennes or Avranches)?
If so, I think his parentage is incorrect. Rivallon of Dol fought Conan II together with Willy the Conker's help, and I can't find info placing him as Conan's brother.
Click to expand...

I noticed that about Rivallion of Dol too... but can not confirm it. Dol is in the Rennes side of the border imo.

I prefer the current set up as well.
 
Here is what I found in my book about Jaffrez Grenonat:

"In accordance with Conan II last wishes, Hoel granted the city of Rennes and the ducal demesne in the same county to Jaffrez Grenonat, half-brother of the deceased."

IMO, there can't be ambiguity: Jaffrez was given the city and the county of Rennes.

I'm really disapointed with giving Hawise the ducal crown. It's true that Hoel was duke consort, but each book, site, says that with Hoel's ascension begins a new ducal dynasty.
Here is a link to wikipedia brezhoneg. On the right side, you can see the succesion of ducal dynasties.

Hawise didn't excercise any real prerogative. After her death (in 1072 IIRC), Hoel wasn't appointed regent of the duchy until Alan's majority. He continued to exercise the power till his death.

Riwallon of Dol: according to my book, "In 1064, Conan II should faced the revolt of a powerful vassal of the county of Rennes: Rivallon. Nephew of the archbishop Junguenée, Rivallon was granted the castles of Dol and Combourg which ones guarded the border with duchy of Normandy. The revolt was threatening the northern border of the duchy"

I dunno if this match with CK setup :confused:
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
Here is what I found in my book about Jaffrez Grenonat:

"In accordance with Conan II last wishes, Hoel granted the city of Rennes and the ducal demesne in the same county to Jaffrez Grenonat, half-brother of the deceased."

IMO, there can't be ambiguity: Jaffrez was given the city and the county of Rennes.

I'm really disapointed with giving Hawise the ducal crown. It's true that Hoel was duke consort, but each book, site, says that with Hoel's ascension begins a new ducal dynasty.
Here is a link to wikipedia brezhoneg. On the right side, you can see the succesion of ducal dynasties.

Hawise didn't excercise any real prerogative. After her death (in 1072 IIRC), Hoel wasn't appointed regent of the duchy until Alan's majority. He continued to exercise the power till his death.

Riwallon of Dol: according to my book, "In 1064, Conan II should faced the revolt of a powerful vassal of the county of Rennes: Rivallon. Nephew of the archbishop Junguenée, Rivallon was granted the castles of Dol and Combourg which ones guarded the border with duchy of Normandy. The revolt was threatening the northern border of the duchy"

I dunno if this match with CK setup :confused:
Click to expand...

Does your source go into why he donated Rennes to Jeffrez?

As far as Hawise rulership: She was hereditary Duchess, with her husband excercising authority by right of his wife. His authority patently derived from this fact. Whatever Conan II's wishes, by the time Hawise's heir Alain became duke of Brittany Rennes was the capital yet again.

This is the same scenario when we discussed the Earl of Fife in 1187... there is a legitimate Earl of Fife in Scotland by that year... however Dumfermline would remain the capital of Scotland until the 15th century.

Does giving Rennes to a transitory figure superseed the traditional capital of the Duchy? I take it then, Hasimir, you would prefer to see Hawise position as hereditary Duchess superseeded by her husband? If you wish it so... as the lone Breton advocate on the forums, I will not oppose it. You said yourself that he was her consort... he married into the legitimate ducal family represented by Hawise... he did not ascend to the throne. It was through his sons though that the new dynasty was founded.

The Breton site has omissions and is incomplete in information, imo. Ive looked into that already.

EDIT: since there is disagreement on the topic, I propose that in the DVIP leave Hoel as Duke (consort) of Brittany. And in the DVIP: More Kingdoms mode make Hawise as Hereditary Duchess of Brittany, Countess of Rennes. With her bastard brother within her court.
 
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Drachenfire said:
EDIT: since there is disagreement on the topic, I propose that in the DVIP leave Hoel as Duke (consort) of Brittany. And in the DVIP: More Kingdoms mode make Hawise as Hereditary Duchess of Brittany, Countess of Rennes. With her bastard brother within her court.
Click to expand...
Can do.
DVIP: Hoel duke, Jafrez count of Rennes
MK: Hawize duchess, Hoel count, Jafrez in Hawize's court.
 
Principality of Turnovo

I found another little oddity in the Principality of Turnovo in 1066:

Ruler Andronikos Doukas and his wife Maria Kometopoulos have a son Michael Doukas (no not THAT Michael ;)) who seems to be inbred.

I wonder how that is possible when his parents are not related :) ... most likely another vanilla inconsistency.
 
I don't think that Jaffrez Grenonat is a transitory figure. After Conan II death, he clearly showed his opposition to the ducal authority. To many vassals in county of Rennes, he was the heir of the Rennes dynasty. Few years after his ascension, Alan Fergant had to face Jaffrez's revolt and besieged Rennes successfuly.

BTW, the concept of capital is clearly unknown during the XIth century. The ducal court was travelling, and Hoel and Alan used to spend most of their life in the southern Brittany where their authority was much more respected than in the north.
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
I don't think that Jaffrez Grenonat is a transitory figure. After Conan II death, he clearly showed his opposition to the ducal authority. To many vassals in county of Rennes, he was the heir of the Rennes dynasty. Few years after his ascension, Alan Fergant had to face Jaffrez's revolt and besieged Rennes successfuly.

BTW, the concept of capital is clearly unknown during the XIth century. The ducal court was travelling, and Hoel and Alan used to spend most of their life in the southern Brittany where their authority was much more respected than in the north.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, Jafrez'll get his title back in the DVIP. See the interim changelog through my sig :)
I'll move the alternate setup (Hawiz as duchess in Rennes, Jafrez in her court) to the More Kingdoms addon.

Capital: very true. The ducal residence was in Nantes at the time, but the court was in Rennes -- and when Alan IV went on Crusade, his regentess Ermengarde moved the court to Nantes. Eventually it was moved there anyway.
 
jordarkelf said:
Can do.
DVIP: Hoel duke, Jafrez count of Rennes
MK: Hawize duchess, Hoel count, Jafrez in Hawize's court.
Click to expand...

Also in keeping with this in the DVIP, his and Hawise's names should be rendered as Hawise and Geoffrey Rennes... in keeping with representing the east as Gallo-French.

Also, all Breton characters in 1187 onwards should be French, rather then Breton.

Also, Alan Rufas Penthièvre should have his last name in French to represent his loyalties there (in both versions), and have better stats as he did lead a vangard in William the Bastards invasion army.
 
By that logic the culture of Hawise and Geoffrey Rennes, and Brient & Alan Rufus should also be changed to French, representing Gallo...

I might as well scrap Breton if there were no Breton rulers. Like vanilla CK.
 
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Drachenfire said:
Also in keeping with this in the DVIP, his and Hawise's names should be rendered as Hawise and Geoffrey Rennes... in keeping with representing the east as Gallo-French.

Also, all Breton characters in 1187 onwards should be French, rather then Breton.

Also, Alan Rufas Penthièvre should have his last name in French to represent his loyalties there (in both versions), and have better stats as he did lead a vangard in William the Bastards invasion army.
Click to expand...

I agree about Alan Rufus but, it may cause some "game overs" for human player who can't get heir with Alan's elder brothers :(
 
jordarkelf said:
@TempestDK: His parents weren't even cousins... trait removed. Good find.
Click to expand...

Maybe the stats of the children should be tweaked too ...otherwise they will grow up as super-statted children. The 1 year old daughter Eirene with 7,4,8,5 is going to be one mean m******
 
Okay let me get things straight here--

what is proposed is a replacement of half of Brittany's nobles with french in 1066, and a full replacement in 1187?

Give me a good argument to keep a Breton culture then... I can certainly use a free culture tag elsewhere.
 
jordarkelf said:
Okay let me get things straight here--

what is proposed is a replacement of half of Brittany's nobles with french in 1066, and a full replacement in 1187?

Give me a good argument to keep a Breton culture then...
Click to expand...

Only the Rennes family, and certin members of the Penteur family... the ones who went east. Euzon and his eldest son would remain Breton.

In 1187... Konstanza most likely was raised French. It is undocumented to what degree she would have identified with native Bretons.

The native provinces of Kerne, Leon, Gwened, and Penteur would remain Breton through-out the scenarios. Even if their lords were French.

In the end, we could use the Celtic tag elsewhere too. As proposed earlier. Remove all Breton altogether.

With the Celtic sprite, we could use it in Scotland/Ireland prehaps?
 
I don't really get it why all of a sudden, Breton culture should be removed.

My suggestion would be to let Brittany stay as is right now (so that people can rethink all the suggestions) and move on to some other regions of the map that (may) need improvement.
 
Few, had me worried there for a sec. I'm not really looking forward to another complete retagging like Scotland. :)
Rennes dynasty and "english" Penteurs will become french. 1187 -- need to look up if there are any Breton local nobles I can possibly add.
 
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