Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Hasimir Fenring said:
Now it's my turn to desagree ;) Concerning Breton, even if I don't speak it, I'm used to reading Breton names each time I go to the street (in the Breton speaking part of Brittany, every roadsign for example is translated in Breton).

Concerning CK, I'm just disappointed with the fact that gallo/french dynasties are badly represented. I just want to find a way to solve that problem. Maybe we could give french culture to the gallo dynasties (I mean, those which come from Rennes, and Nantes).

Concerning purely Breton dynasties, I found a better translation with the help of Breton players:

+"Kerne" is wrong, should be replaced by "ar vro Kerne"
+idem for "Leon", replaced by "ar vro Leon"
+"Porhoet" should be replace by "ar vro Porhoet"

The others 1066 dynasties should be IMO french (representing gallo for some of them):

+"Roazhon" should be replaced by "de Rennes"
+idem for "Penteur" dynasty which is a branch of the "de Rennes" dynasty.
+"Naoned", replaced by "de Nantes".

Otherwise, I found more correct Brittany CoAs, maybe I could post them here and we could discuss about them. It will be great if we could make a more historical CoAs pack for DVIP, don't you think ?
Click to expand...


These are the Gallo rendering of:
Roazhon (Rennes) in Gallo is Resnn
Nanoed (Nantes) in Gallo is Naunnt
Click to expand...

I have no problem with, and I think Jord agreed, that the Gallo region should be represented by French culture.... but with any generic dynasties poping up there with Gallo sir names.

Two questions/observations:

ar vro is from or of?

If this is so... and the translation of ar vro Kerne is from Cornwall, or of Cornwall... this is a styalistic concern. I do not mind ar vro Kerne.... but prefer simply Kerne myself. In the Welsh language (sister to Breton) the of or from is a given and not spoken and is not necessary. Owain Gwynedd, for example, rather then the absolutely more correct form Owain o Gwynedd, for example.

The "Penteur" dynasty... they may have been a cadet of Rennes (I do not know if this is so in 1066, if it is so we should know the connection between them and Hawise)... but Penteur was their primary title and taking the precident of other dynasties, the dynasty name in this case was taken from the title of the county. In 1066 I prefer Penteur.

Edit: There was not a Nantes dynasty in 1066. Hoel of Cornwall (Hoel Kerne) inherited Nantes from his mother... who was Countess of Nantes and the last of that line.

CoA: Yes... Jord was looking for a more correct CoA for Brittany before.
 
Last edited:
"ar vro" means "from the country/land of".

I don't know which one is the best. I have created a thread about this subject on the french forum. And a Breton speaking player wrote that "Hoël de Cornouaille" should be translated in "Hoel ar vro Kerne". I never saw a "Hoel Kerne" in my readings. Most of the time, it is "Hoel ar Vreizh" (Hoel of Brittany).

AFAIK, in one case, the "ar vro" disappeared. It concerns the "Penteur" dynasty.Eudes of Penthièvre is always translated in "Eozen Penteur/Pentevr" and never in "Eozen ar vro Penteur/Pentevr".
 
As per above...

In general for CoA's: any historical CoAs are welcomed. If possible, I prefer CoAs that are valid for the majority of the game period, but if that is not possible, in cases where the original dynasty was completely replaced (like Brittany) I prefer the older CoAs.

Dynasties: I trust Bretons know best. No objection to "ar vro Kerne" vs "Kerne". As for the Penteurs -- if they generally used a different dynastic name, I prefer to give them a separate dynasty. But even better would be to know how to link them up with marriages or children -- even if that means introducing a placeholder character. I have had to use placeholders before (in the different ibn Ziri branches).

Gallo: Gallo provinces will be French, and generic courtier dynasties for their provinces should get Gallo names. Any Breton ruler that was Gallo or French with 100% certainty will get his proper name.

The current Breton setup is oversimplified, since I have no perfect knowledge of the area and time. I simply turned anything French into Breton for 1066 and 1187, so if this can now be corrected -- great!
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
"ar vro" means "from the country/land of".

I don't know which one is the best. I have created a thread about this subject on the french forum. And a Breton speaking player wrote that "Hoël de Cornouaille" should be translated in "Hoel ar vro Kerne". I never saw a "Hoel Kerne" in my readings. Most of the time, it is "Hoel ar Vreizh" (Hoel of Brittany).

AFAIK, in one case, the "ar vro" disappeared. It concerns the "Penteur" dynasty.Eudes of Penthièvre is always translated in "Eozen Penteur/Pentevr" and never in "Eozen ar vro Penteur/Pentevr".
Click to expand...

Humm... I would suggest taking the historic precident of dropping the 'ar vro', as it is generally understood in the Celtic languages, the example of Eozen Penteur for instance. It fits with what has occured historically.

As for Penteur as a last name: From my research the direct decendents of Eozen/Eudas (he who usurped the Breton ducal throne for almost 15 years form Konan!) were long suporters of the Norman duke... and later English kings. One of Eozen/Eudas' younger sons served as the Breton commander at Hastings. An ambitious lot... later in the 12th century Eozen/Eudas' great grandson married Bertha, Duchess of Brittany, and through her had a Penteur become Konan IV Duke of Brittany. Of corse, in the following centuries they would use the French rendering of the sir name.
 
In the 1066 scenrio, I can't tell you which dynasties is 100% :( The best thing to do is to keep the current setup as it is:

+only Breton dynasties: "ar vro Leon" in county of Léon, "Penteur" in county of Penthièvre, "ar vro Kerne" ruling Cornouaille and Nantes and "ar vro Roazhon" ruling Rennes.
+2 french/gallo counties: Nantes and Rennes.

BTW, I've never seen the CoA used in DVIP for Upper Britanny (I mean the one half Brittany, half blue). Where do you find it ? I've got another one that could fit: the first CoA known for Brittany.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Blason_Pierre_Mauclerc.png

It was used by the Franquish/Breton dynasty of Dreux. IMO, it perfectly symbolises french influence over Upper Britanny.

@Drachenfire: you're problably reffering to Alan "the red" of Penthievre. I think we should send him to the english royal court and give him a high intendance value. He was known as one of the richest man in history. Maybe we could also give his brother Brient a title representing the Richmond county.
 
jordarkelf said:
As per above...

In general for CoA's: any historical CoAs are welcomed. If possible, I prefer CoAs that are valid for the majority of the game period, but if that is not possible, in cases where the original dynasty was completely replaced (like Brittany) I prefer the older CoAs.

Dynasties: I trust Bretons know best. No objection to "ar vro Kerne" vs "Kerne". As for the Penteurs -- if they generally used a different dynastic name, I prefer to give them a separate dynasty. But even better would be to know how to link them up with marriages or children -- even if that means introducing a placeholder character. I have had to use placeholders before (in the different ibn Ziri branches).

Gallo: Gallo provinces will be French, and generic courtier dynasties for their provinces should get Gallo names. Any Breton ruler that was Gallo or French with 100% certainty will get his proper name.

The current Breton setup is oversimplified, since I have no perfect knowledge of the area and time. I simply turned anything French into Breton for 1066 and 1187, so if this can now be corrected -- great!
Click to expand...


Euzon Penteur was the paternal uncle of Konan II Roazhon , Duke of Brittany and his sister Hawiz, Duchess of Brittany. In 1040 Duke Alan III was killed beseigning a castle in Normandy (he was acting as one of the regents for a young William the Bastard), leaving Euzon as regent for his son Konan II (b. c 1032). However, when Konan II reached his majority at about 1048 Euzon refused to let go of power. Euzon was possibly suported by William (the Bastard) de Normandy. Euzon... with his powerful brother-in-law Hoel, Count of Cornwall (from his father's side) and Count of Nantes (from his mother's side) kept Konan II from claiming his inheritance. Euzon was married to Hoel's sister.

However, by 1057 Konan II was able to capture and imprision Euzon, and a peace was reached with Hoel. It may have been during these peace negociations that Hawiz/Hawise was married to Hoel. Or it may have been in 1066 that Hawiz was married to Hoel.

Either way, in 1066 Konan II was assinated and Euzon was released from prision. Hawiz became duchess, with Hoel ruling through her.


@Drachenfire: you're problably reffering to Alan "the red" of Penthievre. I think we should send him to the english royal court and give him a high intendance value. He was known as one of the richest man in history. Maybe we could also give his brother Brient a title representing the Richmond county.
Click to expand...

Yes, earlier I recommened placing the brothers Alan the Red and Briant in the English court. Currently, they remain in their father's court of Penteur. They shouldnt yet have a claim on Richmond (York) as the Harrowing of the North (when the Saxon Earls rebelled) happened yet... which was the reason Alan was given Richmond. Neither he nor Briant had legal heirs.
 
Last edited:
Hasimir Fenring said:
BTW, I've never seen the CoA used in DVIP for Upper Britanny (I mean the one half Brittany, half blue). Where do you find it ? I've got another one that could fit: the first CoA known for Brittany.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Blason_Pierre_Mauclerc.png

It was used by the Franquish/Breton dynasty of Dreux. IMO, it perfectly symbolises french influence over Upper Britanny.
Click to expand...

The CoA now used is an absolute fabrication. I had no suitable one ready in time, so I took the CoA of one of the two provinces which is Breton/red, and turned the red into blue to symbolize France.
I think the Dreux CoA would indeed fit better there. I'm pretty sure I have a version of it in CK form already as part of (iinm) Gigau's pack.
 
Though I have not uncovered any evidence of it....yet... I am put of mind that Euzon Penteur was in fact a bastard of Jefrez/Geoffrey I Roazhon/Resnn, Duke of Brittany, possibly an older brother of Alan III.

The reason is simple: Euzon did not inherit after Konan II was assinated, and was made regent to rule over Brittany during Konan II's minority.

This leads me to believe that though Alan III and Euzon shared the same father, they were not necessarily equal to inheritance either. This would give a reason why the Penteur tried so hard to take over Brittany for so long.
 
Last edited:
Drachenfire said:
Though I have not uncovered any evidence of it....yet... I am put of mind that Euzon Penture was in fact a bastard of Jefrez/Geoffrey I Roazhon/Resnn, Duke of Brittany, possibly an older brother of Alan III.

The reason is simple: Euzon did not inherit after Konan II was assinated, and was made regent to rule over Brittany during Konan II's minority.

This leads me to believe that though Alan III and Euzon shared the same father, they were not necessarily equal to inheritance either. This would give a reason why the Penture tried so hard to take over Brittany for so long.
Click to expand...

My book disagree with you :D if you want, I can scan the genealogy of Eozen Penteur and post it here. It clearly shows that Eozen was younger than Alan III

I think that Eozen didn't rise to the throne in 1066 because Alan Fergant was born around 1060. Even if Hoel and Hawiz are known as duke consort and duchess, it was in fact a regency.
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
My book disagree with you :D if you want, I can scan the genealogy of Eozen Penteur and post it here. It clearly shows that Eozen was younger than Alan III

I think that Eozen didn't rise to the throne in 1066 because Alan Fergant was born around 1060. Even if Hoel and Hawiz are known as duke consort and duchess, it was in fact a regency.
Click to expand...

Yes, that would be great!

I found your book online however no translations of it available :wacko:

Nor is there any part of that book posted online that I can have translated either. So you hold the golden ticket there my friend! I am jealous.

I may ask questions from you of that book from time to time if you dont mind :rofl:
 
Drachenfire said:
Yes, that would be great!

I found your book online however no translations of it available :wacko:

Nor is there any part of that book posted online that I can have translated either. So you hold the golden ticket there my friend! I am jealous.

I may ask questions from you of that book from time to time if you dont mind :rofl:
Click to expand...


then you must hurry because I should give it back the 3rd of march !
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
then you must hurry because I should give it back the 3rd of march !
Click to expand...

here it is:

18596.jpeg
[/url][/IMG]
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
here it is:

18596.jpeg
[/url][/IMG]
Click to expand...


So Euzon/Eudos was paternal uncle of William the Bastard of Normandy too. This explains alot. As Euzon was the second son but not the heir of Jefrez/Geoffrey I, he chose to surpress his nephew's inheritance and ally himself with his cousin William the Bastard... who was willing to recognize Euzon's suzentry over Brittany in exchange for his loyalty.

Ive seen this scenario before, many times.

Thanks!
 
Drachenfire said:
So Euzon/Eudos was paternal uncle of William the Bastard of Normandy too. This explains alot. As Euzon was the second son but not the heir of Jefrez/Geoffrey I, he chose to surpress his nephew's inheritance and ally himself with his cousin William the Bastard... who was willing to recognize Euzon's suzentry over Brittany in exchange for his loyalty.

Ive seen this scenario before, many times.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

here is Eozen's family:

18607.jpeg
[/url][/IMG]

Soon, I will post some proposals concerning county of Penthièvre
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
here is Eozen's family:

18607.jpeg
[/url][/IMG]

Soon, I will post some proposals concerning county of Penthièvre
Click to expand...

That familytree has the same information as all the sites that I can find, there I already made all those changes in my mod. :)

In my mod, Brient starts in 1066 as count of Cornwall. His brother 'Alan the Red/Rufus/le Roux' is also in his court. If you put Alan le Roux in the court of the king of England then he is just a character which can't be used by a player. When you put him in his brothers court you can at least arrange a marriage for him

All the sites that I can find also say that Hoel and Hawise married in 1066 and that their son Alan must therefore also be born in at least that year.

That Eudes didn't became duke can have many reasons, inheritance laws in those days were much more diverse and complicated then is represented in CK.
 
Hasimir Fenring said:
here is Eozen's family:

18607.jpeg
[/url][/IMG]

Soon, I will post some proposals concerning county of Penthièvre
Click to expand...


Yep, there is Alan the Red and Briant... and the youngest son Steffen.

I asked on Kerverker (Breton learners language forums) about the correct formate, this what he said:



...
if you were to assign a dynasty or family name to the count of Cornwall in the late 11th century... what would be more correct?

Hoel Kerne, Kont Kerne

or

Hoel ar vro Kerne, Kont Kerne







From Lausanne



Hoel Kerne seems correct to me...

the count of Cornwall = kont Kerne, kont bro-Gerne
Click to expand...
 
jordarkelf said:
Are you certain? Keep in mind the CK map is severely distorted in that area. I don't think these two provinces represent Yemen, that would be much further to the south.

Political history of Mecca @Wiki implies that Mecca and Medina were held by Hashemites, which were sunni muslims, until the Ottomans in 1517.
Click to expand...
Upon further reading it does seem i was off a bit, but so too is the game.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8108878
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Yemen#Islamic_history
The Rasulid dynasty ruled from Zabid...a Shi'ite city. It is off the map, so it can't really be represented, but what can be is the populace.

With the exception of the govenor a Rasulid and his wife & children the rest of the court should be Shi'ite. Mecca would then be the best representation of the capital.

This for the 1337 scenerio.
===
In addition in both the 1187 and 1337 scenerios there should be a larger number of Shia in eastern Persia. The saturation of Shia in this region over time is well documented.

Finally, atleast several berber in all scenerios should shia. Shia was the first form of Islam to be adopted by the Berber and it made far greater inroads than Sunni did for a long time.
 
Djordarkelf, I found some errors concerning county of Belgrade 1066:

+the count Theodoulos (id20488) have a wrong dynasty name. Instead of Syraneres, he's known as Theodoulos Synadenos (the dynasty already exists, id:101141).

+Although he's single in CK, IRL he married Euphrosyne Botaneiates (id90034).

+together they got a daughter called Teophano. She's present in CK She's the wife of Geza Arpady duke of Nytra and her id is 481. In CK Teophano haven't got any parents.

+otherwise, I haven't find any mention of their son Nikephoros (id90035) present in CK :confused: Dunno if you should delete him.

BTW, when will the next DVIP version be available?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back