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I think Rethel is in CK Reims region, since the medieval city belonged to Reims abbey of Saint-Rémy until Manasses Ist claimed himself count of the city in the second part of Xth century (french wiki here and here).

edit : and only at 35 km of Reims ;)
 
Thanks :)

I'm going to give Reims to the de Rethels in 1187 -- Marie Capet was still ruling over Champagne as regent until later that year, so it should either be directly part of Champagne, become a bishopric, or can be used for Rethel. I prefer the latter since the dynastic history is interesting to me.
 
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Okay I've thought it over, and I am thinking of these possible duchy/kingdom revisements:

Breton March: Nantes and Rennes, using the ELRI tag. Title is claimed by BRIT in all three scenarios.
Breton kingdom: non-recreatable, in 1066 only and held by Hoel. Using the PISA tag.

Welsh March: Herefordshire, Shrewsbury, Chester -- using MADA tag.
Gloucester added to WARW(ick), GLOU (Salisbury + Bristol) renamed to something -- Salisbury?.
Title of Welsh March is not held by anyone in any scenario, but England will probably create it.

Scottish March: not needed IMHO. Galloway already has this rôle.


Here's a quick look at the proposed CoAs as I currently have them.

Breton March:
This CoA simply is a blue version of C106 (Nantes). As it merges French blue with the Breton CoA I think it fits.
ELRI.bmp


Kingdom of Brittany:
This flag is the Kroaz Du -- the oldest Breton flag.
PISA.bmp


Salisbury (Gloucester replacement):
The CK SALI CoA. If we can just swap Gloucester for Salisbury this one's dealt with.
GLOU.bmp


Welsh March:
Bottom-left quarter of the CoA of the Earl of March
MADA.bmp
 
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The Breton Marches were created by carolingians (Roland from the song of Charlemagne was duke of those Marches) but were annexed by the Kingdom of Brittany and ceased to exist in the IXth century.

There were two different Marches, a Rennes-Vannes one, in the VIIIth century, and a Tourraine-Anjou-Maine one, in the IXth, as Brittany borders expanded.

The Norman invasion and the reduction of the royal power in France, made those old carolingian administrative form of Marches to disappear (ie. Neustrie became Normandie) as Bretons didn't use them at all.

Carolingians named their borders Marches, and there are others in France : Provence, Flandre, Gothie and Neustrie -- and others in Francie Orientale (Germany) or Italy.


The Brittany Kingdom itself ended in 909 with the death of Alain I le Grand and the Norman settlement, and were never recreated since.


I don't think the Breton Marches or Kingdom are appropriated in a XIth century game as they disappear 200 years before...
Still for playability sake, the Kingdom should be recreated in adding Tourraine, Maine, Anjou (and Avranches), but these counties legitimately belongs to France, and I don't think Dukes of Brittany laid claims on them.



(Sorry for my poor franco-english :))
 
No problem, I value the input.

The purpose for this proposed change in Brittany is mainly the following:
a) To make sure Brittany remains independent in 1066 -- making it a kingdom accomplishes this. Think of it as abstracting a powerful duchy into a kingdom.
b) To allow for the Gallo parts of Brittany to be held by someone else than the Breton parts

Brittany is one of the largest duchies in Europe, most duchies have 3 provinces at most.

I'm not making the kingdom-level Brittany recreatable on purpose -- just like Navarra, it is just too small and historically lost its independence during the timeframe, not gained it. By 1187 Brittany is a french vassal, and would never become fully independent again.
But theoretically if Brittany had remained independent, over time it would have become accepted as a separate nation just like Navarra was.
The only difference between duchy/principality and kingdom is after all wether or not the Pope crowned you... had Brittany survived long enough outside French influence they might have petitioned for the crown.

(Navarra is a kingdom because it claimed to be the true successor to Pamplona, Wales is a historic one that reemerged a few times in the CK timeframe).


Now if I were to add a recreatable Brittany, I'd certainly include those provinces you mention. Just like I'd like to add Cornwall to Wales.
 
For plausability and undeterministic approach, Brittany should be recreatable, imo.

Examples as follows:

For the Kings of England, Scotland was not independent but a vassel of England, as was the Pincipalities of Wales, and the lordships of Ireland. Yet, Scotland confrimed its independence after a series of wars against Edward I longshanks (who had conqured Wales only 20 years before). So Scotland may not have remained independent had history slided another way.

And Brittany was independent de jure all the way until the Duchess Anne was forced to marry into the French royal family, and Brittany did not "lose" independence so much as was inherited by her legitimate heirs, the kings of France. It wasnt until the French revolution that Brittany lost its distinctive Breton Parliament, founded in the 14th century, during the wars of Breton Succession.

Please reconsider the decision on making the k.o. Brittany non-recreatable. For in history it was de jure a soverign state with a recognizable parliament in the 14th century. Albiet, Brittany became a French satailite, but diplomatically, the independent Breton rulers managed to play France and England off of each other for centuries.
 
Nothing's set in stone :)

I can make Brittany recreatable, but then it'll be Brittany + Tourraine, Maine, Anjou, Avranches, Poitiers, Thouars -- 12 provinces total.
Big advantage: Brittany is unclaimable without conquest in 1187 for BRIT and FRAN alike, and unclaimable in 1337 for BRIT.
Disadvantage: France is easier to claim, and a human player essentially gets a free king title in 1337. OTOH this counters Germany's free Bohemia....
I'll think on it a bit more.

What do you think of making Wales more difficult by adding the Cornish lands (Cornwall, Devon, Exeter) to it? That would eliminate the last free kingdom from the map by increasing Wales's size.
 
jordarkelf said:
Nothing's set in stone :)

I can make Brittany recreatable, but then it'll be Brittany + Tourraine, Maine, Anjou, Avranches, Poitiers, Thouars -- 12 provinces total.
Big advantage: Brittany is unclaimable without conquest in 1187 for BRIT and FRAN alike, and unclaimable in 1337 for BRIT.
Disadvantage: France is easier to claim, and a human player essentially gets a free king title in 1337. OTOH this counters Germany's free Bohemia....
I'll think on it a bit more.

What do you think of making Wales more difficult by adding the Cornish lands (Cornwall, Devon, Exeter) to it? That would eliminate the last free kingdom from the map by increasing Wales's size.
Click to expand...


but then it'll be Brittany + Tourraine, Maine, Anjou, Avranches, Poitiers, Thouars -- 12 provinces total.
Click to expand...

Not in favor, I think K.o. Brittany should be valued in its own kingdom and historic borders, and Poitiers is the historic home for the Duchy of Aquitainia anyway (which, imo, like Lothringia, should be a creatable kingdom too, it was almost as independent as Brittany was, but that is another topic). I think a two duchy kingdom of Brittany will give the Breton player enough of a launching pad to carve out for himself a plausable colonial empire, and prehaps hold his own with an allied K.o. England.


Alternatives which are plausable:

Another way to make it more plausable is simply to have the Breton player duke of Brittany and the Breton March, but not have K.o. Brittany created at any scenario start... but let the player of recreate it later. It always worked well in my scenarios.

If we worry about a too strong France and the need for another bullwark, then raise Aquitainia to a kingdom level too (though not currently one in any scenario)


What do you think of making Wales more difficult by adding the Cornish lands (Cornwall, Devon, Exeter) to it? That would eliminate the last free kingdom from the map by increasing Wales's size
Click to expand...

Not in favor, however an alternative is: take duchy of Cornwall away from England, and duchy of Welsh March away from England... this would be a plausable and attainable goal for any Welsh player to expand into. This way, if K.o. England is in a civil war, then the Welsh player may press his advantage and take some of those border counties... this was exactly what Prince of Wales Owen Glendwr did in the 15th century... when he allied into the Tripartide Alliance.

This always worked well in my scenarios. A strong Welsh ruler could easly expand into the March: Witness Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, Owain Gwynedd, and Llywelyn Fwar. Not having those duchies (Cornwall and the March) taged to England is a very plausable scenario, allowing the border to change sides.

England is not lessened by these moves.
 
Hmm, stuff to consider :)

Brittany at six provinces is just a bit too easy -- even the AI could create it with relative ease: all he'd need are 4 provinces. I feel uneasy about any kingdom with less than 9 required provines.
Maybe just add Avranches-Anjou-Maine? That would raise the requirement to 6, or all of Brittany proper -- something the AI can do, but will likely not until he is really stable (safe from France).
1066 I think should still start with the title as Brittany was then still independent, but in the other scenarios the AI (or a player) will need to gain enough gold to become free. France will lose just three provinces this way.


One thing I noticed as a result of adding Cornwall to Wales -- it requires the player to actually own all of Wales (GWYN + DEHE) before he can claim the title King of Wales.

Of course extending Wales into the March would also work the same way.


//Oh, and I finally got the great northern alliance working in 1066, so I'm removing the extra friendships, and Gwynned as rival for England.


As for Lotharingia and Aquitaine -- I have those in my game actually. Lotharingia mod should be somewhere on this forum, Aquitaine I never uploaded.
I also have a recreatable Navarra (6 provines -- I know this violates my own rule thankyouverymuch), and a "new" Crusader Kingdom of Edessa, taking lands from Syria and Mesopotamia.
 
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I agree with the interest of recreating the Kingdom of Brittany :)

But I still find it too easy to build it in CK terms. If we add 3 or 4 provinces to the 6 ones, the Duke is near to the 66 % of Kingdom requirements...

jordarkelf said:
Kingdom of Brittany:
This flag is the Kroaz Du -- the oldest Breton flag.
PISA.bmp
Click to expand...
It is said that the Kroaz Du (the black cross) sign was given by the pope to crusaders in 1188, like the english red cross or various others, but there are no imagery or texts about it until XIVth century.

Still, the Kroaz Du was used as a flag and not a coat of arm, as the oldest breton CoA known is Pierre de Dreux 's one, with typical breton hermine plain in the right canton :

special-pierre-de-dreux.png


Brittany should be in hermine plain, and not with a black cross :mad: :)


About Aquitaine and Lotharingie, I don't find it plausible to introduce them in CK and those two Kingdoms last only a very few years. They were created in applacation of salic-division law by Charlemagne and sons for their heirs, and disappeared very briefly as the kings died and the lands were inherited by their brothers...
 
IMO, I think it very plausable that a viable kingdom could and should be represented by the 6 county, two duchy each Kingdom of Wales and Kingdom of Brittany.

The Duchy of the Welsh March and the Duchy of Cornwall should remain untaged to any kingdom... thus allowing room for expansion by Wales or England. I do believe that the Welsh March and the Duchy of Cornwall should be in the possession of England at the scenario starts though.

They are small kingdoms yes, but they are what they are, and increasing their territory precipitously at the expense of Anjou or others is untenable as well. Let them be what they are, and let the player of these kingdoms enjoy them as they are, without too much attached that is not Welsh or Breton.

Anywhos... did Scotland and Ireland get their provencial values reevaluated alongside Wales? Prehaps Veld can post that discussion topic as well.

Also, were a monastary and church placed in Dyfed (for the Bishipric of St. David's) and in Glamorgan (for Llantwit Fawr) both high centers of learning in pre-conquest Wales?


Also, where Henry II FitzEmpress mom and grandad added? If not, here they are:

*A note, Empress Maude died in 1187, but I removed her death date to allow for plausability of her surviving a few more years. She was heroic, in that she fought hard to secure her legal succession to her father's throne... she had been designated his successor as Melisende had in Jerusalem. In the civil war between her and her usurper cousin Stephen de Blois, she was unable to secure England but did take Normandy. In her fifties, she abdicated her rights to the throne of England in favor of her son, who became Henry II FitzEmpress.

Code: 
}
character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 7027401755 }
	name = "Maltilda Imperatrix"
	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =752 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 7027401766 }
	country = ENGL
	religion = catholic
	culture = Frankish
	birthdate = { year = 1101 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "87939187498296"
	attributes = {
		martial = 5
		diplomacy = 8
		intrigue = 7
		stewardship = 7
		health = 8
		fertility = 8
	}
	traits = {
		energetic = yes
		just = yes
		proud = yes
		wise = yes
		valorous = yes
	}
}
character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 7027401766 }
	name = "Henry Beauclerc"
	gender = male
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =752 }
	father = { type = 10 id = 7027401777 }
	country = ENGL
	religion = catholic
	culture = Frankish
	birthdate = { year = 1068 month = may day = 3 }
	deathdate = { year = 1135 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "58306377481290"
	attributes = {
		martial = 7
		diplomacy = 4
		intrigue = 8
		stewardship = 6
		health = 4
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	}
	traits = {
		energetic = yes
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		proud = yes
		wise = yes
		valorous = yes
	}
}
 
I think I actually have that CoA in wood texture somewhere... but isn't that essentially the CoA of Dreux (France) with a Breton canton? Robert Capet was, as his last name reveals, a member of the French royalty.

We don't have a historical record of what -- if anything -- the CoA of the old Bretons was, asides from family crests of course. The Kroaz Du was the only attested flag ever flown by an independent Brittany from 1381 through 1488/1532.
 
Maud and Henry are in, and I did something to the Scottish provinces (not sure what now).

Dyfed has a church and monastery, Glamorgan a monastery.

I'll test how the AI behaves with a six-province Brittany...

As for the Welsh march and Cornwall -- I don't like NONE provinces much, so barring alternatives I'm keeping them in England.
 
Here are Gigau's the Great's version of the updated Welsh CoAs.


In his thread, post 1005, n order, from top to bottom, it is K.o Wales, Duchy of Gwynedd, and County of Gwynedd

In post 1006 is county of Powys, and below, Duchy of Deheubarth, and it can serve as county of Dyfed too.


EDIT: *nod* on your comments above. If only there was a way to allow for overlapping claims for kingdoms.
 
Ooops! Haer needs to expire by 1051, so that Bleddyn can marry his second wife!


Code: 
character = {
	id = { type = 10 id = 40507 }
	name = "Haer"
	gender = female
	dynasty = { type = 12 id =100064 }
	country = GWYN
	religion = catholic
	culture = Welsh
	birthdate = { year = 1025 month = january day = 1 }
	dna = "16715049514832"
	attributes = {
		martial = 6
		diplomacy = 5
		intrigue = 6
		stewardship = 7
		health = 4
		fertility = 5
	}
	traits = {
		proven_accountant = yes
	}
}
 
Wierd outcome

This happened on DVv6, as Count, my liege (Duke) asked for my province, I refused, went to war with Duke & his lord the King, I offer to be King's vassal, he accepts but I become suzerain with the King as 'my' vassal.

When I tried this against an islamic state, its endgame for me (which I assume is what's suppose to happen). Has this happened to anyone else?
 
aylo1: swap bug! Some things in the engine are bugged, such as demanding a revoking of titles on both sides, or demanding to become a vassal of someone. You can safely demand someone else become your vassal, but the reverse is bugged.
 
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