Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

[Garbon]

I know that the Banu Ifran were earlier, but were they still Kharidjite in 1066?

But they shouldn't survive. In fact, within the span of 1-2 decades, all of those lands should be owned by the Almoravids. That's where my thought of 1-2 provinces minors stemmed from (in fact, they could even be mini-dukedoms).

Is shiite the best way to simulate all islamic heresy?

On a related note did you see my comment about Infa and my questions about Granada? As another question, why is Valencia independent? Valencia didn't become independent under Abu Bakr until sometime in the 1070s (I've seen 1075 and 1076).

[jordarkelf]

Much of the iberian setup is not necessarily 100% accurate, such as the alliances and independence, but is needed to allow the christian kingdoms to survive a bit.

'heretic' is a trait with very harsh effects, whereas sunni/shiite are traits which are tolerable to eachother. If I mark the Zenatans as heretic they will have an even harder time to survive as their courtiers would rebel etc.. Shiite gives the desired effect, a conflict with sunni islam, but does not penalize them further.

[saskganesh]

Uberpopes are a vanilla issue -- bishops have no demesne limits, so they will not create vassals. I don't know of any way to get around this.

The break free event will never fire for bishoprics, precisely to somewhat combat the behaviour you describe...

gotcha. I have a biased sample as I haven't played vanilla in a while.

[Jinnai]

I always thought your Timurid mod was interesting. Although, the White Horde and Blue Horde implementation never quite resonated with me, given the relatively few provinces on the map that would belong to the White Horde.

I understand that, but I thought the idea was to get as much of an accurate representation as possible.

[Mrdie]

Just wondering, since there seem to be events that prevent every child being a genius, are there events for old people to lose their skills? Like, say, after age 65. This is especially true for the martial and intrigue stats. After age 80 the rest should begin moving down too.

[jordarkelf]

No such events exist, but they're an interesting idea. I'll look into it when I have time.

[IamWhoa]

The rulers of Mallorca (and their vassals) in 1066 are Serbian Muslims. What's the story behind that?

[Davisx3m]

The rulers of Mallorca (and their vassals) in 1066 are Serbian Muslims. What's the story behind that?

They emigrated there and converted iirc.

[jordarkelf]

Nope. They're saqalibah (sp?), freed slaves.

Muslims for centuries (until the Americans stopped the barbary pirates in fact) kidnapped and enslaved Christians from the Mediterranean coasts. Dénia was a taifa where the population was made up of former slaves, mostly Serbians, who had converted to islam to escape slavery. In Dénia they had become the ruling party with the father of the ruler in scenario start.

[Garbon]

Much of the iberian setup is not necessarily 100% accurate, such as the alliances and independence, but is needed to allow the christian kingdoms to survive a bit.

Well color me skeptical on that front. The only way to have the Christian kingdoms survive is to introduce a great deal of inaccuracies on the muslim front?

Shiite gives the desired effect, a conflict with sunni islam, but does not penalize them further.

Is this a desired effect? Who exactly were they motivated to fight because of religious considerations? One can't really include the Almoravids as they thought just about everyone in the region was indulging in heresy. Also, while making the Zenata shiite might pick up the historical note that the were Kharijites, it has the strange effect of making them coreligionists with the Fatimids (whereas in reality they were bitter religious enemies).

[Llywelyn]

Just wondering, since there seem to be events that prevent every child being a genius, are there events for old people to lose their skills? Like, say, after age 65. This is especially true for the martial and intrigue stats. After age 80 the rest should begin moving down too.

I'll second that this is a very good idea. See here and here for people performing well into their 70s and 80s, which just isn't accurate.

Problem is the traits should go down a little by the 40s, but there's no way for the game to know if the event's already fired. Might have a problem with someone getting run down to 0 pretty quickly.

And I'd think age would lower diplo (can't stay up all night, make as many trips, etc.) more than intrigue, which should rightly go up (or given game limitations, stay the same) with age unless the guy goes senile.

It would be sad, but appropriate, to have really debilitating senility events occasionally fire as well, on the order of the catatonic schizo one.

[Mrdie]

more than intrigue, which should rightly go up (or given game limitations, stay the same) with age unless the guy goes senile.

Well it's more like being less alert and aware, which is pretty much unavoidable for people who get really old.

[jordarkelf]

There are the three user defined traits, one of those could be used to create an 'old' trait with skill adjustments. This would also help it not firing more than once per person.

[Llywelyn]

Oh, but that just begs for a page of people amused that their 41 year old is "old" while their 89 year old patriarch hasn't had the event fire for him yet.

How about modifying the severely wounded trait and text so that it also encompasses strokes, illness, and infirm old age? Senility could be a crazy trait you might pick up as you grow older?

[Jinnai]

Well color me skeptical on that front. The only way to have the Christian kingdoms survive is to introduce a great deal of inaccuracies on the muslim front?

Don't know if that still holds true. The bulk of the changes were in original CK.

Is this a desired effect? Who exactly were they motivated to fight because of religious considerations? One can't really include the Almoravids as they thought just about everyone in the region was indulging in heresy. Also, while making the Zenata shiite might pick up the historical note that the were Kharijites, it has the strange effect of making them coreligionists with the Fatimids (whereas in reality they were bitter religious enemies).

Yes. Shiites were for centuries treated as an inferior, if not, heretical branch of Islam by Sunni. It didn't help things that the few times Shiites had their own kingdoms they were usually more anti-Sunni (Mameluks went so far as to kill and otherwise eradicate any Sunni with governmental or potential government power).

As for Almoravids, well there is very little information as to their religious nature. However, the events as they are right now do not allow for heretic Shiites and heretic Sunnis.

[Jinnai]

I'll second that this is a very good idea. See here and here for people performing well into their 70s and 80s, which just isn't accurate.

Problem is the traits should go down a little by the 40s, but there's no way for the game to know if the event's already fired. Might have a problem with someone getting run down to 0 pretty quickly.

And I'd think age would lower diplo (can't stay up all night, make as many trips, etc.) more than intrigue, which should rightly go up (or given game limitations, stay the same) with age unless the guy goes senile.

It would be sad, but appropriate, to have really debilitating senility events occasionally fire as well, on the order of the catatonic schizo one.

Well first way to have them not fire too much is set the MTTH to yearly, not monthly. Second, it really high, like 50 years and have it go down as you age slightly, but never below 5-10 years.

Yea, someone could get hit twice in a row, but some people just aren't lucky.

[Garbon]

Don't know if that still holds true. The bulk of the changes were in original CK.

Indeed.

Yes. Shiites were for centuries treated as an inferior, if not, heretical branch of Islam by Sunni. It didn't help things that the few times Shiites had their own kingdoms they were usually more anti-Sunni (Mameluks went so far as to kill and otherwise eradicate any Sunni with governmental or potential government power).

While I appreciate the general statement that doesn't really answer my question.

[Jinnai]

While I appreciate the general statement that doesn't really answer my question.

Unless we make events and allow Muslim (and thus Shiite and Sunni) heretics, then there is nothing other than tweak some setups with claims and/or traits.

[Garbon]

Unless we make events and allow Muslim (and thus Shiite and Sunni) heretics, then there is nothing other than tweak some setups with claims and/or traits.

My point was that the Zenata were not shiites and I was curious as to whether or not it makes sense to represent their religion as shiite (hence the mentioning of how they were religious enemies of the Fatimids).

[Jinnai]

My point was that the Zenata were not shiites and I was curious as to whether or not it makes sense to represent their religion as shiite (hence the mentioning of how they were religious enemies of the Fatimids).

Make them heretics, make events to add/remove heretical nature from islam and make the Fatimids zealous non-heretics.