Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

[Walter Hawkwood]

Also remember that vyatich provinces in 1066 should be devoid of any tech. Another thing to consider is giving princes of Pereyaslavl, Chernigov and Kiev an initial alliance with each other and probably friendship with each other: "Together with his elder brothers Iziaslav and Sviatoslav he [Vsevolod] formed a sort of princely triumvirate which jointly waged war on the steppe nomads, polovtsy, and compiled the first East Slavic law code".

[Hasimir Fenring]

Also remember that vyatich provinces in 1066 should be devoid of any tech. Another thing to consider is giving princes of Pereyaslavl, Chernigov and Kiev an initial alliance with each other and probably friendship with each other: "Together with his elder brothers Iziaslav and Sviatoslav he [Vsevolod] formed a sort of princely triumvirate which jointly waged war on the steppe nomads, polovtsy, and compiled the first East Slavic law code".

Great work Walter ! I've always thought that 1066 Russia was neglected by CK programmers and modders. I can't wait for your next update Jordarkelf !

BTW, concerning Brittany, Hoel never ruled the county of Rennes. Before being duke consort, I was "only" count of Cornouaille and Nantes.

[Veldmaarschalk]

Great work Walter ! I've always thought that 1066 Russia was neglected by CK programmers and modders. I can't wait for your next update Jordarkelf !

BTW, concerning Brittany, Hoel never ruled the county of Rennes. Before being duke consort, I was "only" count of Cornouaille and Nantes.

Ah yes of course, I confused Rennes with Nantes But the Nantes province is also in the Gallo-part of Brittany. And he was duke of Brittany, Drachenfire just names him duke-consort, and had modified Wiki accordingly, that doesn't mean of course that it is correct.

Hoel when still count of Cornouaïlle, Nantes and Léon. Had fought together with Eudes de Brittany (the uncle of Conan II) against Conan II in the late 1050's.

[Hasimir Fenring]

Concerning Léon, you are wrong. In 1066, the viscounty was held by Alan of Leon (born aroud 1020). The "CK count", Morvan died in 1065.
You can check this here:

http://fabpedigree.com/s004/f287127.htm

@ Jordarkelf: I'm currently gathering information about my "home" county of Léon. It seems that the CK setup concerning this county is completely wrong. I will post my results later.

[Veldmaarschalk]

Concerning Léon, you are wrong. In 1066, the viscounty was held by Alan of Leon (born aroud 1020). The "CK count", Morvan died in 1065.
You can check this here:

http://fabpedigree.com/s004/f287127.htm

I don't want to make Hoel count of Leon, though he is named count of Leon, here. And so does this one

Those are the same two sites on which the claim that Hoel is just Duke-Consort is based. So we either believe those sites or we don't. Since your site names Hoel as duke of Brittany

But the fact that Hoel is named as count Leon doesn't mean that Alain can't be the Viscount, since a Viscount (or Vicomte) was the representative of the count. Since in large counties (or counts who had several counties) a count couldn't be everywhere at the same time. So Counts appointed Viscounts, often the position of Viscount became hereditiary and a Viscount became the 'real ruler' of the county.

[Drachenfire]

The status of Brittany 1066


The House of Roazhen
(Resnn, in Gallo)



The Roazhen dynasty ruled from Rennes Castle in the Gallo region of Brittany, having come to prominence in the mid 10th century.

By the early 11th century the Roazhen and Normandy houses were united by a double dynastic marriage: Jefrez I married Hawise of Normandy, sister of Richard II of Normandy, and Richard II of Normandy married Jefrez's sister Judit.

Despite this intermarriage, the traditional rivalry between Brittany and Normandy continued... with Richard II formulating a border policy that was continued by his successors in Normandy (Crouch, David "The Normans: a History of a dynasty", 2002) This policy included sponsoring rebellions against rival lords in Brittany, Anjou, Main, and the Vexin. In Brittany, this included sponsoring Euzon, Kont Penteur, (Eudes, Count of Penthièvre) in his bid to disinherit his nephew Konan. In Brittany this policy paid off, with a pro-Norman faction forming against Konan II when he came of age.

Konan II represented a threat to William of Normandy, as he represented the senior line of legitimate claimants to the Duchy of Normandy following Richard III’s death (Patterson, Benton, "Harold and William", 2001), through Hawise of Normandy. It was in William's interest to aid rebel counts like Euzon and Rivallion of Dol against Konan II.

During Konan’s minority ( c. 1040-1050 ) his paternal uncle Euzen ruled as regent of Brittany, and refused to give up his authority once Konan came of age in 1052. Euzen was married to Hoel of Cornwall's sister, Oanez Kerne ( Agnes of Cornwall ), and they were allied against Konan's inheritance. Once Konan captured Euzen Penteur in 1062 he had him chained and imprisoned, and Konan could claim the ducal throne.

With William of Normandy preparing for his invasion of England, he warned his traditional neighboring rivals not to invade Normandy. Normandy in 1066 was surrounded by allies or lords favorable to William (Brown, Allen “The Normans and the Norman Conquest”, 1969). William’s primary ally was with his father-in-law Baldwin, Duke of Flanders, who was also the guardian of King Phillip of France. (Brown, Allen “The Normans and the Norman Conquest”, 1969) In France neither a youthful King Phillip nor Geoffrey of Anjou was in a position to thwart William (Phillip’s father Henri died in 1060). Anjou was launched into a dynastic war from 1060, which allowed William to take Main from Anjou in 1063. (Brown, Allen “The Normans and the Norman Conquest”, 1969) Only Konan II offered resistance when he rebuffed William’s warning.

In 1064 William sponsored the rebellion of Rivallon of Dol against Konan II. Konan then laid siege to Dol, which occupied a stratigic position on the Breton side of the Breton-Norman border. William relieved the siege, defeating Konan II at a battle near Dinon, fifteen miles west overlooking the river Rance. After the battle, Konon II surrendered to William, but the terms of surrender were not recorded.

In the spring of 1066 Konan launched a campaign against Anjou in an attempt to take Angers. During the siege Konan died, with many pointing towards poisoned gloves. His gloves had been lathered in a concentrate of belladonna or henbane (Patterson, "Harold and William", page 93), and when he took his lunch with his poisioned hands he ingested the poison. (*always wash your hands! )

Following Konan’s death, the pro-Norman faction had taken over Brittany, centered around Hoel of Cornwall, who had previously supported Euzon Penture. Hoel married Konan’s sister and heir, Hawiz, and ruled through her.

So, as of 1066:

Yes, Hoel was in control of Brittany, and of the pro-Norman faction. However, by 1076 Hoel would go to war against William I, now King of England. In a battle at the Breton border town of Dol in 1076 the combined armies of Hoel and Philip of France resoundly defeated William.

Later, Hoel and Hawiz's son Alan IV would also war against William of England and his heirs. Though in their defeat they were forced into dynastic intermarriages with the Angivin house.

For the set up, I think Hawiz should be made Duchess, and have a claim on the duchy of Normandy, as well as on Avarnches, and possibly Anjou and Main (However, I conceed that Hawiz probably did not exert any authority over her inheritance). These claims would be passed on to her son Alan.

edit: I conceed to Veld's point that in 1066 a pro-Norman faction was in control of Brittany (though they would not be so in 10 years).

However, I also think that England should be allied with the Duchy of Flanders, rather then with Brittany.

IMO, we should ally Brittany with France, to precipitate their 1076 alliance.

[Hasimir Fenring]

I don't want to make Hoel count of Leon, though he is named count of Leon, here. And so does this one

Those are the same two sites on which the claim that Hoel is just Duke-Consort is based. So we either believe those sites or we don't. Since your site names Hoel as duke of Brittany

But the fact that Hoel is named as count Leon doesn't mean that Alain can't be the Viscount, since a Viscount (or Vicomte) was the representative of the count. Since in large counties (or counts who had several counties) a count couldn't be everywhere at the same time. So Counts appointed Viscounts, often the position of Viscount became hereditiary and a Viscount became the 'real ruler' of the county.

That's strange, I never saw this point in my investigations. However, the house of Léon owns the county since the IXth century. And, AFAIK, the county of Léon was downgraded to a viscounty by the dukes of Britanny.

[Veldmaarschalk]

However, I also think that England should be allied with the Duchy of Flanders, rather then with Brittany.

IIRC this won't work, since the duchy of Flanders is a vassal of the king of France and a vassal can't have allies, unless his loyalty is below 50%.

You can of course make the duke of Flanders start with -50%, but he will then soon be up to 100% and then the alliance ends. And the 'duke of Flanders' was the regent of king Philippe so he wasn't unloyal to him. CK can't really portrait the fact that the important nobles of France all acted independently and had their own foreign policy.

One of the reasons that the duke of Brittany starts as an ally with the king of Englad was to weaken England in the game. Before this was done, you would normally see at the start of the scenario an alliance between France, England and/or Germany. And this powerfull block would crush all rebellions and would also lead to a French or German conquest of certain Welsh or Scottish provinces.

That's strange, I never saw this point in my investigations. However, the house of Léon owns the county since the IXth century. And, AFAIK, the county of Léon was downgraded to a viscounty by the dukes of Britanny.

Like I said, I don't want to make Hoel count of Leon, I just copied a line from one of the sites, I was to lazy to type it. . And accidently forgot to remove the 'county of Leon' from it.

I am fine with Alan as count of Leon

[Hasimir Fenring]

I'm not fine with Alan being the count of Léon since the county was "de facto" integrated to the ducal demesne much more later (during the XIIIth century IIRC). Maybe I should go to my university and get some books about medieval Britanny to convince you.

[Veldmaarschalk]

I'm not fine with Alan being the count of Léon since the county was "de facto" integrated to the ducal demesne much more later (during the XIIIth century IIRC). Maybe I should go to my university and get some books about medieval Britanny to convince you.

Convince me of what ?

Here you said that Alan should be count of Leon and I am fine with that

Concerning Léon, you are wrong. In 1066, the viscounty was held by Alan of Leon (born aroud 1020). The "CK count", Morvan died in 1065.
You can check this here:

But no you say that Alan shouldn't be count of Leon

Who then should be count of Leon in 1066 ?

[Drachenfire]

I'm not fine with Alan being the count of Léon since the county was "de facto" integrated to the ducal demesne much more later (during the XIIIth century IIRC). Maybe I should go to my university and get some books about medieval Britanny to convince you.

Hasimir,

We always want the most correct leige to be in possession of the county. Veld wishes the most correct leige to be in place as well. If there is another you propose we would include him easily.

It is the goal to get Brittany correct, for it was neglected for so long.


You said Alan of Leon (born aroud 1020) should be count of Leon? Great! Then we can add him. But do go to university (since you are there in Brittany and have greater access then us web browsers) and flesh out his possible history and family.

When you go to your university also look for additional courtiers that can be added to these courts .... such as church figures that may have been there. For Wales I had added the Bishop of St. Davids to the court of Deheubarth, and also the Bishop of Llantwit Major to the county of Glamorgan. We can and should do that for Brittany too. Also, we can add minor nobles and other notables from within the county to the count's court. Basically, if someone important lived within Leon, Kernev, Gwened, Penture at the time of 1066 (and the other scenarious), then they should be added. I look forward to what you uncover!

Is it your propersition that Leon should be independent from the duchy at the 1066 scenario start? We can consider this.

In my research I joined a Breton learners site called Kavakar, maybe you have too?



I know from my resarch that leading magnets of Leon had protested against one of the later Dreux Dukes of Brittany in the 14th century. They were protesting against the Duke from collecting wreckage and spoils that washed ashore, and on whales and others that washed ashore. They claimed that no other Duke of Brittany had that right, and that they (the Leonease) were afforded more local home rule then elsewhere. From my prespective, it is probably very true that Leon and Cornwall retained a great deal of home rule, but it is also correct to say they were constituent componets of the Breton nation, as represented by the Breton ducal house as well.

The Dreux Dukes of Brittany, even though they began as a cadet branch of the Capet dynasty, by then were attempting to raise funds and keep Brittany independent from France at the time.


PS: your forum handle is from Count Hasimir Fenring from the Duneverse yes? I like it. Hehe.

[Hasimir Fenring]

Convince me of what ?

Here you said that Alan should be count of Leon and I am fine with that



But no you say that Alan shouldn't be count of Leon

Who then should be count of Leon in 1066 ?

Excuse me Veld, I misreaded your post I'm so confused... I thought that you wanted to make Hoel, count of Léon.

Anyway, I will try to look for some books on medieval Britanny and post here my results.


@ Drachenfire: you got it ! Fenring is one of my prefered character in Dune. In CK, I would have given him the "illusive shadow" trait

[Veldmaarschalk]

I am glad the problem is solved

And I have removed your 'double post'

More information about Brittany (or about any other region) is always welcome.

[jordarkelf]

My main PC is back up and running, so I've finally begun merging in the changes. Release of the next DVIP should be this week (weekend at the latest) unless I run into some big issue

[Hasimir Fenring]

I went to my university and found a great book: "Feodal Britanny from the XIth to the XIIIth century". Here are the modifications concerning county of Léon:

Unfortunetly, there isn't a lot of pieces of information . Nevertheless, I found that the first known viscount was Guyomarch. He died in 1055.

Secondly, after Guyomarch the first, there aren't any historical sources until Guyomarch II who dies in 1103.

According to several genealogical websites, Guyomarch was born in the 1030's.

Consequently, all characters in county of Léon should be removed except Guyomarch II, born in 1035. I haven't any idea of his attributes Jordarkelf, just make him a tough soldier. BTW, I think we can give him 50 prestige points at the beginning since the viscounty was the less prestigious title in Britanny.

[Drachenfire]

I went to my university and found a great book: "Feodal Britanny from the XIth to the XIIIth century". Here are the modifications concerning county of Léon:

Unfortunetly, there isn't a lot of pieces of information . Nevertheless, I found that the first known viscount was Guyomarch. He died in 1055.

Secondly, after Guyomarch the first, there aren't any historical sources until Guyomarch II who dies in 1103.

According to several genealogical websites, Guyomarch was born in the 1030's.

Consequently, all characters in county of Léon should be removed except Guyomarch II, born in 1035. I haven't any idea of his attributes Jordarkelf, just make him a tough soldier. BTW, I think we can give him 50 prestige points at the beginning since the viscounty was the less prestigious title in Britanny.

Is Guyomarch the Breton rendering of that name?

[Hasimir Fenring]

In fact, Guyomarch is purely a breton name. But I found 3 forms of Guyomarch:

+Guyomarch (of course)
+Guyomarc'h
+Guyomark

Personnaly I prefer the second one since it sounds more "brythonic" to me.

[Drachenfire]

In fact, Guyomarch is purely a breton name. But I found 3 forms of Guyomarch:

+Guyomarch (of course)
+Guyomarc'h
+Guyomark

Personnaly I prefer the second one since it sounds more "brythonic" to me.

Yes, me too. Every time I encounter the letter c followed by an h in Breton, there is an apostrophy between them. So I think Guyomarc'h is the most correct.

So, the Count of Léon should be Guyomarc'h of the dynasty Léon yes? (Taking the dynasty name from his primary title yes?)

[Jinnai]

Can someone confirm if Sunni/Shiite clear if you convert religions? And if heretic clears if you a child converts to a non-chrisitan religion?

Otherwise we have some serious bugs that are very deeply entrenched in the scripting code that need to be fixed, probably requiring the doubling of existing events in many cases.

[ulmont]

Can someone confirm if Sunni/Shiite clear if you convert religions?

I confirm that I have seen the Sunni trait clear after a child finished an ecclesiastical education and became a Catholic.

And if heretic clears if you a child converts to a non-chrisitan religion?

Unless the DVIP adds that event, I don't see it in the baseline code?