Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

[Gargantou]

Hello people, just starting a new CKDV game, I was wondering if anyone has made a 'mod' that would let me convert DVIP game to EU2(With AGCEEP)?

Otherwise I'll just have to go without converting!

Thanks for any helpful reply!

[jordarkelf]

Is there a converter that converts CK to AGCEEP? If so, I can probably modify its conversion info to work with the DVIP.

The built-in converter can convert to EU2 vanilla, and has been made to work with the DVIP.

[Walter Hawkwood]

OK, first observations, including a number of quite significant ones. Bear in mind that birth dates are a real pain, and most of the times we'll have to make more or less accurate guesses.

1) Patronymics and dynasties. In medieval Russia, there was no concept of "Family name". So, the most one can expect is a patronymic mentioning a very famous ancestor (Rurikovich is the prime example - though later Rurikovich branches usually took different patronymics to further the distance, like "Monomahovich" and "Svyatoslavich" branches).

What I want to offer here is adding some generic Russian patronymics to the list of dynasties, so that random courtiers spawned in Russian provinces would have more realistic names (and so that half of them wouldn't be Rurikovich).

Another (more debatable) idea is to split Rurikovich dynasty into several branches. 1066 start is very good for it, as the split took place after Vsevolod, and most relevant characters are already around at the time.

2) Wife of Vsevolod, prince of Pereyaslavl, Irene Monomachos, is dead at the scenario start. All sources put her death to 1067. She should be brought back to life (probably with very low health, warranting early death).

3) Tmutarakan is a very interesting place. Actually, it probably deserves a duchy title associated with it - as it was counted as a principality back then (and not a lower rank "Udelnoe" principality, which would amount to county, but a "Full" principality). Anyway, there is a mention that in 1022, the prince of Tmutarakan fought and conquered Kasogs, and made them vassal to Tmutarakan. No further status changes are recorded. Kasogs should probably be vassals to Tmutarakan in 1066.

4) Now, we're talking new characters.

4.1) Vyshata.
Marshall of Novgorod. Participated in an expedition against Byzantium in 1043 (said to have performed with exceptional valor), captured Tmutarakan for Novgorod in 1064 (Novgorod lost it in 1066, so no adjustment here). Born around 1012-1016. Suggested start location: Novgorod. Probable traits: Tough Soldier, valorous, reckless (?). Had two children:

4.2) Ivan Vyshatic.
Born before 1043 (but likely not much earlier). In 1070 is said to be collecting tribute for the prince of Chernigov and chasing off pagan priests. In 1093 successfully makes war to Cumans together with Vladimir Monomach. In 1106, together with his brother (see below) defeats Cumans again. Died 1106. Had a wife, certain Maria. Suggested start location: Chernigov. Suggested traits: Knowledgeable Tactician, zealous, temperate.

4.3) Putyata Vyshatic.
Younger brother of two, birth date unknown. Probably still less than 16 at 1066. Served in Kiev. In 1099, led a successful campaign led a successful campaign in an inter-princely feud. In 1113 his estate in Kiev was razed to the ground by angry mob, most likely because he practiced usury. Suggested start location: Kiev. Suggested traits: Knowledgeable Tactician, sceptical, deceitful.

4.4) Nestor(ius) the Chronist.
The author of the best-known medieval Russian chronicle, the main source of historical data on the period. Born about 1056, died 1114. Worked in Kiev. Suggested start with Ecclesiastical Education, wise.

4.5) Antonius of Pechora.
The father of Russian monasticism. 983-1073. The founder of Kievo-Pechoran lavre (monastery), which should be present in Kiev in 1066. Suggested traits: Scholarly Theologian, zealous, modest.

4.6) Theodosius of Pechora.
Student of Antonius, born 1036. Furthered monastic tradition in Russia, made many regulations for monastic life. Suggested start location: Kiev. Suggested traits: Scholarly (or Mastermind) Theologian, zealous, just, temperate.

4.7) Ratibor
Steward of Pereyaslavl, took active part in many political developments of the day. Served under Vsevolod and then under his son Vladimir, outlived both (therefore should be about 20 in 1066). Known for making Vladimir Monomakh break the truce with Cumans and kill their leaders. Suggested start location: Pereyaslavl. Suggested traits: Charismatic Negotiator (or Silver Tounge - as he was a steward, after all), deceitful.

[Gargantou]

Is there a converter that converts CK to AGCEEP? If so, I can probably modify its conversion info to work with the DVIP.

The built-in converter can convert to EU2 vanilla, and has been made to work with the DVIP.

I seem to recall someone having made a file that supported vanilla CK to AGCEEP, cant seem to find it right now though.
Otherwise I guess I'll just convert it into vanilla EU2.

[Jinnai]

Next, his son - Joseph. Joseph is supposed to be killed and his body crucified on December 30, 1066, but I can't think of a way to model that in the game. Perhaps making him incredibly disloyal? Or making him rivals with the Emir?

Make his health 1 and give him a war_invalid trait.

Perosnally, I would not put in anyone sceduled to die within 1 week or so of any startdate unless their removal would seriously impact gameplay, ie they are a count/duke/king or a major historical figure everyone and their mother should atleast have heard about.

Why? We want these people die quickly anyway and it eats up CPU resources in the mean time, cpu resources that could be better spent on people we want to live for a while longer.

I'll see if I can find any female Jewish courtiers. Is there a limit to the amount of new characters which can be added to the game?

As far as I know, not really (atleast not that we should worry about hypotehtically), but each new character does add a wee bit of load time & long term amount of increased cpu usage due to events.

If we begin to add too many we may have to tweak up death events.

I picked Spain because it's far western Europe, and a good starting point. And because I know nothing about it. After D:VIP, maybe I'll be a Spanish expert. Maybe we could each pick a country/kingdom/region and work on it - sort of to divide the workload. Focusing on the 1066 start date, we could slowly work around the map that way. If someone (and I guess I'd sort of volunteer for this, with help from more experienced modders) were to update the Encyclopedia CK with better modding guides, then it would make the project more accessible to people and we could recruit more help.

I'm willing to help where I can. I focused on Muslim areas even though I knew very little about them, but like you wanted to help and wanted to learn at the same time.

The intended scope of the DVIP is sort of the following:
-Historic characters at scenario start
-Historic realms and provinces at scenario start
-Edit or add events to allow cultures to change more-or-less historically (melting pots)
-Fix remaining Deus Vult bugs where possible (events, database files, CoAs)

What about stuff MrT, CatLord and Byakhiam intended, but never had a chance to implement?

[jordarkelf]

What about stuff MrT, CatLord and Byakhiam intended, but never had a chance to implement?

That mostly made it into DVIP3 and following (if it was discussed anywhere in the Public Beta forum).
I have no idea what they planned to do further with the crusader state breakaway events except for that a detailed list of sea provinces was planned, to replace the current generic at sea exception. I haven't implemented that since it would have to be written from scratch, and is a huge amount of work. I think I've done a few small modifications to the event (such as allowing Nubia to controll Mecca), but a full rewrite is not planned by me.

[Drachenfire]

Im sorry to bring Brittany up again, lol, but I think the alliance between Brittany and England is inappropriate.


Brittany, Normandy, and Anjou had been historic rivals for centuries. By the 11th century Norman dukes sponsored rebellions in the Gallo region of Brittany against the Dukes of Brittany. One such event sparked an open war between Duke Conan II of Brittany and Duke William of Normandy on the eve of the Norman invasion of England between 1064 and 1065.

It is in this Gallo region of Brittany that William of Normandy was able to recruit for his invasion of England... to include the ancestors of the Bruce.

During his preperations to invade England, William sent word to his rivals warning them not to attack Normandy while he was on campaign in England.... to which Conan II of Brittany rebuffed, responding he would take any opportunities provided. Later that year, in 1066, Conan II was found poisioned to death by donining on poisioned riding gloves during a campaign against Anjou. William the Conqurer was widely believed to be the one to have posioned him.

On Conan II's assination, any player of William of Normandy would have gotten the assination message, "successful, but were discovered"!

Brittany and Normandy would again go to war between 1082-1084 when Alan the Younger came to the ducal throne. By the end of that war Alan was forced into a marriage with a cousin of William the Conqurer, and so start a long history of interweaving the Breton succession with the Norman succession... later Angivin succession. This would continue until 1213, when the youthful Duchess Alys was forced into marriage into a junior branch of the Capetian monarchy... and bring the Druex family to Brittany.

Anywhose, I think Brittany should be removed as an ally of England and instead placed as an ally of France... as both France and Brittany were threatened by a strong Anglo-Norman power.

England should then be allied with Normandy prehaps.

[Shogun 144]

Drachenfire,

Hey that was my thoughts exactly! Actually I have something of a pet interest in Brittany and I thought that given the period an alliance between England and Brittany was somewhat strange.

As you pointed out they were not on the best of terms. I find it funny, in a macabre sort of way, that William II de Normandie publicly stated that Pope Alexander II was backing his invasion and told everyone to leave him alone, and here comes Konan II Roazhon who also publicly states he has no intention of leaving William alone. And what happens? Konan dies from putting on a pair of poison gloves!

We may not know what Hawise, or her Consort Hoel II Kerne were like but I hardly think that they would be friends with the man who killed their brother/brother-in-law.

Well anyway what I really wanted to post about was that if at all possible I think that the DVIP should consider giving the Holy Roman Emperor his rightful wife. What I mean is that Heinrich IV was already married by December 26, 1066. His wife was one Bertha of Savoy, or alternatively Bertha of Turin, and lastly Bertha of Maurienne. She was countess of Moriana and daughter of the powerful Oddone or Otto of Savoy and was promised to Heinrich in 1055. They wed on July 13th, 1066.

Additional Information:

Bertha was initially quite overjoyed at the wedding, and most of the Imperial nobility thought the Emperor-Elect (as Heinrich was still King of the Romans, and not crowned) was lucky to have such a beautiful wife. Heinrich however did not find marriage agreeable to him and became legendary for his unfaithfulness. In 1069 he actually asked Pope Alexander II for permission to divorce Bertha, who had begun to resent him. He honestly admitted his infidelity and wanted to be rid of Bertha so he could marry someone else. Heinrich even added he never consummated the marriage. Pope Alexander II denied the request outright, and added that unless Heinrich behaved he would not crown him Emperor. Heinrich, despite his later famous spats with future Popes, obeyed and had five children by Bertha before her death in 1087. As an aside Alexander II still didn't crown him. Heinrich IV had to wait until 1084, when he kicked Gregory VII off Peter's Chair and put his own Anti-pope (Clement III) in power to finally become Holy Roman Emperor.

[Veldmaarschalk]

Well anyway what I really wanted to post about was that if at all possible I think that the DVIP should consider giving the Holy Roman Emperor his rightful wife. What I mean is that Heinrich IV was already married by December 26, 1066. His wife was one Bertha of Savoy, or alternatively Bertha of Turin, and lastly Bertha of Maurienne. She was countess of Moriana and daughter of the powerful Oddone or Otto of Savoy and was promised to Heinrich in 1055. They wed on July 13th, 1066.

Heinrich is married to Bertha, that marriage is already in the vanilla-game. So I doubt it has been removed in the Improvement Pack.

[jordarkelf]

Heinrich should be married, I've certainly not intentionally removed Bertha.

As for Brittany -- keep in mind alliances are between characters in CK. Should Hoel be allied to the young Capet, or be allied to nobody?
Is there basis to make Hoel a rival of William based on the (presumed) murder of Conan by William's agents?

An alliance between England and Normandy won't work, as vassals will lose their alliances if their loyalty to their direct liege is high enough.

[Veldmaarschalk]

Is there basis to make Hoel a rival of William based on the (presumed) murder of Conan by William's agents?

I think that Hoel would be rather pleased with the death of Conan, since because of this death he became duke.

Before Hoel became duke, he was also count of Rennes, which is in the Gallo-part of Brittany and most of the Britons who went with William to England (a third of William's army were Britons) came from that area. So he wasn't unwilling to give support to William.

[jordarkelf]

Okay, let me get this straight.
Speaking in CK terms here --
William the Conqueror has an alliance with Hoel and declares war on England to enforce his claim. Hoel uses his troops to aid this invasion.
Hoel's liege Conan Duke of Brittany and William would have been rivals -- Conan having a claim on Anjou (fabricated or not).
Following the invasion and gaining the throne, William assassinates Conan, allowing Conan's brother-in-law Hoel to get the title (in a succession that cannot be modelled in the current engine, as it passes through Hoel's wife).
New situation: William is King of England, Hoel is Duke of Brittany.

This would lead me to believe that at scenario start, Hoel and William should still be allies because alliances last until ruler death or a DoW between parties. But perhaps they should indeed not be friends (are they currently?).

I could give Hoel a claim on Anjou if there is any basis for it, this would lead Brittany to probably declare war on Normandy/England as soon as either Hoel or William dies.

For Hoel as Duke of course read Hawise in the above, if I make her duchess, as was suggested earlier.

Brittany experts, your thoughts?

[Drachenfire]

Okay, let me get this straight.
Speaking in CK terms here --
William the Conqueror has an alliance with Hoel and declares war on England to enforce his claim. Hoel uses his troops to aid this invasion.
Hoel's liege Conan Duke of Brittany and William would have been rivals -- Conan having a claim on Anjou (fabricated or not).
Following the invasion and gaining the throne, William assassinates Conan, allowing Conan's brother-in-law Hoel to get the title (in a succession that cannot be modelled in the current engine, as it passes through Hoel's wife).
New situation: William is King of England, Hoel is Duke of Brittany.

This would lead me to believe that at scenario start, Hoel and William should still be allies because alliances last until ruler death or a DoW between parties. But perhaps they should indeed not be friends (are they currently?).

I could give Hoel a claim on Anjou if there is any basis for it, this would lead Brittany to probably declare war on Normandy/England as soon as either Hoel or William dies.

For Hoel as Duke of course read Hawise in the above, if I make her duchess, as was suggested earlier.

Brittany experts, your thoughts?

Brittany and Normandy were never allies, there was a state of war between them between 1064-1065, and William assinated Konan II in 1066. Hawiz and Hoel would not then ally with William for his invasion of England.

William did draw some Breton nobles to join him in his invasion of England... chiefly those from the Gallo region (Rennes), the area he sponsored rebellions against Konan II in.

I wouldnt ally Brittany with England at all.

Additionally, though there were historic rivalries between Brittany-Anjou-Normandy, I dont think I would add claims to Brittany. Let me think on that one.

[Drachenfire]

Heinrich should be married, I've certainly not intentionally removed Bertha.

As for Brittany -- keep in mind alliances are between characters in CK. Should Hoel be allied to the young Capet, or be allied to nobody?
Is there basis to make Hoel a rival of William based on the (presumed) murder of Conan by William's agents?

An alliance between England and Normandy won't work, as vassals will lose their alliances if their loyalty to their direct liege is high enough.

I think a rivalry between Hawiz/Hoel and William is appropriate, and also an alliance between Brittany and France.

[Veldmaarschalk]

Hawiz and Hoel would not then ally with William for his invasion of England.

Why not ? Hoel became duke because of the death of Conan, so why would he be angry at William.

William did draw some Breton nobles to join him in his invasion of England... chiefly those from the Gallo region (Rennes), the area he sponsored rebellions against Konan II in.

1/3 of Williams army consisted of Bretons, so there were quite a few nobles from Brittany.

And Hoel was the count of Rennes before he became duke

[Drachenfire]

Why not ? Hoel became duke because of the death of Conan, so why would he be angry at William.



1/3 of Williams army consisted of Bretons, so there were quite a few nobles from Brittany.

And Hoel was the count of Rennes before he became duke

I will get back to you on this, I have to prepare for work.

It is true that the 1/3 of Williams army consisted of Bretons... but from the Gallo region of Brittany. The region where William sponsored so many rebellions such a Rivillon of Dol.

Ill get back to you on this as I must depart for court. Be back soon.

[Walter Hawkwood]

Second bunch of observations - digging deeper, I've found some fundamentally wrong things about Russian setup in 1066.

1) Religion.
In 1066, Russia is shown as a christian monolith - nothing can be farther from truth. Despite the fact that all princes by that time were christianized, there were vast regions where christians were still a minority. List of christian provinces that should be pagan instead: Vologda, Bryansk, Kolomna, Ryazan, Moskva, Mozhaysk, Galich Mersky, Gorodets, Nizhny Novgorod, Suzdal, Vyatka, Rostov, Murom.

2) Which brings us to another important entity - the Vyatichs. A staunchly pagan and independent tribe that occupied much of central Russia in 1066. This warrants a duchy- or kingdom-level tag for a tribe of Vyatichi, Russian pagan, elective law (chronicles say there were "no princes" in Vyatich lands, and leaders were elected). Provinces: Moscow, Bryansk, Kolomna, Murom, Ryazan, Nizhny Novgorod (?). Also, while Vyatichi were of clearly slavic descendance, these currently Mordvin provinces should get Russian culture: Nizhni Novgorod, Ryazan, Murom, Kolomna.

3) Cumans - to stimulate historical expansion, their ruler should be given claims to Pecheneg provinces Belgorod, Olvia, Oleshye, Peresechen. He also should have a younger brother, Sugr - 14 years, martial education.

4) Characters:

4.1) Simon the Varangian. Donated all his riches to Kievan monastery. Born around 1035, suggested traits: Crafty Merchant, generous, zealous. Suggested culture/religion: Scandinavian orthodox. Suggested province: Kiev.

4.2) Leontius of Rostov. Later canonized by Russian Orthodox Church, spreaded christian faith in then-pagan Rostov. Born 1016, died (martyred) 1073. Suggested traits: Scholarly theologian, amiable (was very tolerant to pagan clergy).

4.3) Kicha of Rostov. Main rival of Leontius, head pagan priest of Rostov. Born around 1022. Suggested culture/religion: Russian pagan. Suggested traits: hostile, deceitful, sceptical (tried to trick people into burning christian church by talking from inside Veles' statue). Has a son, Kruglets, (6 years in 1066, ecclesiastial education), who converted to christianity.

4.4) Arkadiy Novotorgsky. Bishop of Vyazma. Since Vyazma is in the demesne of Vsevolod prince of Pereyaslavl, should either be in his court, or given Vyazma as his bishopric. Fanatical priest, zealous, (schizophrenic - or at least reported to be in his childhood, I guess he wouldn't become a successful cleric later if he was clinical).

[jordarkelf]

According to the Wikipedia article the Vyatichs paid tribute to Kievan Rus' princes. Were they actually rulers of those provinces by 1067?

If I am to add them I need some idea of a name for at least their leader (will 'Vjatko' do?), and they will need a CoA. Is there an existing tag/CoA that can represent them?

[Walter Hawkwood]

Their relations with Kiev were very tense. Kievan princes regularly mounted expeditions there to pacify them - mostly successful, but this "tribute" stuff usually lasted for a couple of years before they stopped paying again. Brief chronology (unfortunately based on a very limited selection of sources, just as about everything else on Russia from that period):

964 - Svyatoslav invades Vyatich lands. Finding out that they are Khazar tributaries, he peacefully negotiates new status and collects tribute.

981 - Vladimir the Saint wages war upon Vyatichi (obviously independent by then, as a war on own tributaries is pointless), and conquers them.

982 - Vyatichi rebel and Vladimir pacifies them again.

988 - Vyatichi refuse christian missionaries sent by Vladimir and from this moment stop paying tribute. With ongoing christianization on his hands, Vladimir can't mount any punitive measures.

1066 (!) - Vyatichi, by then not paying tribute for decades, publically declare their independence from Kiev. They are led by Khodota and his son (name not specified). Vladimir Monomach (not prince of Kiev yet) mounts two unsuccessful expeditions to pacify them. Later (possibly a decade later) he will kill Khodota and, for duration of his lifetime, assume lordship on Vyatichi. He will list this as one of his greatest military achievements.

1097 - in Lyubech, the territory of Vyatichi is nominally proclaimed to be a part of Chernigov principality. Chernigov princes exert no real power in these lands for half a century more.

Second half of XII century - Vyatichi lands are conquered and divided between Suzdal and Chernigov.

Here is a good map showing Vyatich territory (a hatched region in the center of the map, with red name).

As for CoAs, I've made some, although of course a tribal union such as vyatichi can't be expected to have real heraldry. One is based on a characteristic broch, found in many vyatich burials. Two others are based on kolovrat sign, which is believed to be central for Russian pagan religion (seeing as Vyatichi are the only Russian pagan faction around).

http://rapidshare.com/files/90150287/vyatichi.rar.html

[jordarkelf]

Thanks for the additional info -- and especially the CoA!

I'll work on getting them in (as well as the other changes in Russia).

As for the DVIP update status in general -- I hope to get my main system back up this weekend, or ultimately monday or tuesday next week, so all the merging in will begin then. I will need to playtest it a bit first -- I don't want the Russians to disappear all the time under a pagan assault. The Cuman claims on Pecheneg areas might keep them out of Russia long enough though for the Russkis to take care of the Vyatichs.