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Thread: Deus Vult Improvement Pack - Discussion

  1. #21
    To Mega Therion ZmajOgnjeniVuk's Avatar
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    Some proposals for Serbian name changes (if you don't mind ):
    Code:
    easternslavic;female;Efimija to Jefimija
    easternslavic;female;Viola to Violeta
    easternslavic;female;Zavida -> should be a male name (see first paragraph in this link)
    easternslavic;male;Grubes - I'm not really sure that's a name :) Could be changed to Goran, f.e.
    easternslavic;male;Hlavimir - Hmm...That looks like a typo - could be either Hvalimir, or Slavimir
    easternslavic;male;Silvester - Silvester is not a Serbian name, and AFAIK did not appear in medieval Serbia. Could be changed to Stojan
    Province setup (probably already discussed over and over, sorry if that's the case ):

    Zachlumia could go to Serbia, or have Serbian culture - see this link. Also, here's an article about medieval Bosnia. And these two maps: circa year 1000, and one of 1066.
    Also, why does Philippopolis have Croatian Culture? Shouldn't it be Greek or (maybe) Bulgarian?

  2. #22
    Crazy Crusader Kings Creator jordarkelf's Avatar
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    Names corrected
    Philippopolis turned Greek

    I don't think those are in question. -- but I'd rather not go into a full Balkan discussion if you don't mind. Past experience has shown that those things never go well here.

    As for Zachlumia -- in the current setup it's part of the Croat kingdom and the Duchy of Croatia. Can this hold, or should it go to Serbia and one of its duchies instead? It doesn't seem logical to me to turn it Serbian while keeping it in Croatia at the same time.
    Last edited by jordarkelf; 12-10-2007 at 15:03.

  3. #23

  4. #24
    Crazy Crusader Kings Creator jordarkelf's Avatar
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    I don't, much. I prefer the Improvement Pack setup. Maybe Finellach or Calgalus want to update that one.

  5. #25
    To Mega Therion ZmajOgnjeniVuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordarkelf
    Names corrected
    Philippopolis turned Greek

    I don't think those are in question. -- but I'd rather not go into a full Balkan discussion if you don't mind. Past experience has shown that those things never go well here.

    As for Zachlumia -- in the current setup it's part of the Croat kingdom and the Duchy of Croatia. Can this hold, or should it go to Serbia and one of its duchies instead? It doesn't seem logical to me to turn it Serbian while keeping it in Croatia at the same time.
    Zahumlje changed hands a lot during IX-XI century period - it was first a part of Duklja(until 930's), then Croatia (until 1150's), then Serbia (until 1400's). So, I'd have to say that in 1066, it should stay in domain of Croatia, have Serbian culture (local lords, and population were mostly Serbian), and maybe change duchy to Duklja. I known this doesn't matter much in gameplay terms, but it's maybe a bit more accurate than before.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jordarkelf
    As for Zachlumia -- in the current setup it's part of the Croat kingdom and the Duchy of Croatia. Can this hold, or should it go to Serbia and one of its duchies instead? It doesn't seem logical to me to turn it Serbian while keeping it in Croatia at the same time.
    I think it should be kept as it is since it is put in Croatia in the initial setup, and I am sure this was already fought over.

    However if it is made Serbian, the chief argument would be to make it like Ragusa (Serbian Catholic), in this case it should be Serbian Catholic. Condisering the geography and what I have read about the Slavic entry into Greece and Illyria it is very likely that these people were Serbian rather than Croation in origin, but the same can be said for most of the Dalmation population of modern Croatia. The key thing is that they were Catholic as opposed to Orthodox and when the real schism between the churches began in the 10th century these areas were far more likely to be in the latin sphere.

    The problem with places like Zachlumia, is that in 1066 a lot of people who would be identified as Serbs became Croats and vice versa, but they and their culture really did not change at all. The Zachlumia on the game map is not really in the same place as the real Zachlumia. Instead it represents the interior mountain districts of the Dalmatian coast. These areas have really fuzzy history in this period and were real no man's lands for anyone who would ever write anything down, they didn't even have proper churches or priests, catholic or orthodox and were in the eyes of the people in places like Ragusa and Split seen as mostly dangerous savages. I think this population is the sort of reason Johann is so adamant about the South Slav thing.

    The setup right now has the coast, except for Ragusa being Italian, which is an interesting way to look at it considering that Ragusa itself is classified as Serbian

    personally for 1066, I would probably make Ragusa Italian Catholic like Split and Zadar. Btw, it is my understanding that Zadar was under Byzantine control until around 1100, when it was conquered by the Croatians.
    -JRM-

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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ZmajOgnjeniVuk
    Zahumlje changed hands a lot during IX-XI century period - it was first a part of Duklja(until 930's), then Croatia (until 1150's), then Serbia (until 1400's). So, I'd have to say that in 1066, it should stay in domain of Croatia, have Serbian culture (local lords, and population were mostly Serbian), and maybe change duchy to Duklja. I known this doesn't matter much in gameplay terms, but it's maybe a bit more accurate than before.
    I could just as easily agree with ZmajOgnjeniVuk, it should probably be Serbian culturally, Catholic Religion and under Croatian rule (i.e. keep the Croatian count who rules it)

    This sort of crossing where the ruler is Croat and the province Serb, or the ruler Serb with the province Bulgarian, while maybe not perfect actually does a very nice job of keeping the place balanced, and accurately reflecting the historic flavor. In these sort of transitional zones where you could use almost the same evidence to argue either way culturally this sort of lets us have it both ways.

    The one little thing that bothers me is Ragusa, 1066 seems awful early for it to become Slavic rather than Italian, I mean most of the population was probably Slavic, but it was ruled by Italians and Italianized Slavsand the guilds and societies were all Italian as well. The courts, churches and most of the higher business would have been conducted in some sort of Italian as well. If Split is Italian it would seem Ragusa should be as well. If it gets conquered by a Serbian Kingdsom, or a Croatian one it can then change easily enough.
    -JRM-

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  8. #28
    The Closer Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    The setup right now has the coast, except for Ragusa being Italian, which is an interesting way to look at it considering that Ragusa itself is classified as Serbian
    The 'problem' I think is, that the province of Ragusa is much to big, the city/republic of Ragusa only consisted of a small coastal strip. And the 'hinterland' was clearly Serbian while the city was Latin/Italian. So in my mod I have kept Ragusa, Serbian

    it is my understanding that Zadar was under Byzantine control until around 1100, when it was conquered by the Croatian
    The situation in Dalmatia was very complicated, part of it was under Venetian rule, part of if was under Croatian ruler and part of it was 'independent' but under nominal suzereinaty of Byzantine. Who controlled what changed almost each decade. But Croatia held most of the land, that makes up the province of Zadar.

    Another example would be Bari, the town itself was held by the Byzantines until 1072, but the province was controlled by the Normans.

  9. #29
    Crazy Crusader Kings Creator jordarkelf's Avatar
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    Okay. Then what I'll do is turn the Zachlumia province culture Serbian, but I will not change its ruler, duchy, or kingdom. Religion will remain Catholic.

    As for the "italians" in Dalmatia, those represent the Dalmatians IIRC. Since they spoke a Romance language they have much more in common with Venetians than with Slavs. Apparently the Istro-Romance language is a last remnant of it.

  10. #30
    To Mega Therion ZmajOgnjeniVuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohe
    However if it is made Serbian, the chief argument would be to make it like Ragusa (Serbian Catholic), in this case it should be Serbian Catholic. Condisering the geography and what I have read about the Slavic entry into Greece and Illyria it is very likely that these people were Serbian rather than Croation in origin, but the same can be said for most of the Dalmation population of modern Croatia.
    I didn't say it should be Orthodox. I only mentioned culture/domain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohe
    The key thing is that they were Catholic as opposed to Orthodox and when the real schism between the churches began in the 10th century these areas were far more likely to be in the latin sphere.
    Exactly. Actually the founder of Serbian Nemanjić dynasty was baptized as Catholic at birth (even if his father was Orthodox), due the fact that there were no orthodox churches in the area (he was born in Ribnica, today's Podgorica in Montenegro). Only when his family reached Ras few years later was he re-baptized into Orthodox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohe
    The problem with places like Zachlumia, is that in 1066 a lot of people who would be identified as Serbs became Croats and vice versa, but they and their culture really did not change at all. The Zachlumia on the game map is not really in the same place as the real Zachlumia. Instead it represents the interior mountain districts of the Dalmatian coast. These areas have really fuzzy history in this period and were real no man's lands for anyone who would ever write anything down, they didn't even have proper churches or priests, catholic or orthodox and were in the eyes of the people in places like Ragusa and Split seen as mostly dangerous savages. I think this population is the sort of reason Johann is so adamant about the South Slav thing.

    The setup right now has the coast, except for Ragusa being Italian, which is an interesting way to look at it considering that Ragusa itself is classified as Serbian

    personally for 1066, I would probably make Ragusa Italian Catholic like Split and Zadar. Btw, it is my understanding that Zadar was under Byzantine control until around 1100, when it was conquered by the Croatians.
    I'd agree with Veldmaarschalk on this - If Zachlumia, Split and Zadar were made into one province, similar argument could be pulled - like for Ragusa, you could say that cities were Latin/Italian, but the countryside was Serbian. Only Zachlumia, Zadar and Split are three different provinces, and Zachlumia can be made Serbian, while Zarad and Split remain Italian.

  11. #31
    Crazy Crusader Kings Creator jordarkelf's Avatar
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    Interim changelist updated. I'll leave this open today, and will probably upload the "IPv3" for Deus Vult tomorrow

    I've it all zipped up now, but want to wait for some more input. I don't want to update this every other day, it's not MMG

  12. #32
    To Mega Therion ZmajOgnjeniVuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordarkelf
    Okay. Then what I'll do is turn the Zachlumia province culture Serbian, but I will not change its ruler, duchy, or kingdom. Religion will remain Catholic.
    Culture - .
    Ruler, kingdom, religion - ok.
    Duchy - I could still debate on that, but as you said - let's not go into further Balkan discussion, who know where it might lead.

    Will you mind if I open a CoA discussion later on (I still don't have DV, waiting for my CC owning friend to come from vacation)? If I have seen it correctly in Johan's teaser screenshot, some counties (Rashka) use wrong CoA's.


    Quote Originally Posted by jordarkelf
    I don't want to update this every other day, it's not MMG

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ZmajOgnjeniVuk
    Ruler, kingdom, religion - ok.
    Duchy - I could still debate on that, but as you said - let's not go into further Balkan discussion, who know where it might lead.
    totally agree, looking forward to the update
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  14. #34
    The Closer Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    It isn't necessary to add all the characters I have added to this mod, but some important ones would be nice


    1. Godefroi de Boulogne, a brother of the count of Boulogne (Eustache) and therefor the uncle of Godfrey of Bouillon and Baldwin of Edessa.

    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORT...#_Toc156901814

    GEOFFROI de Boulogne (-[30 Apr/1 May] 1095). The Flandria Generosa names "Gosfridus episcopus Parisiacensis, frater Eustachii comitis Boloniensis"[120]. Bishop of Paris 1061. Chancellor of France 1075-1077, and 1081-1085. Arch-Chancellor of France 1085-1092.
    Code:
    character = {
    	id = { type = 10 id = XXXXXX }
    	name = "Godefroi"
    	gender = male
    	dynasty = { type = 12 id =308 }
    	father = { type = 10 id = 10065 }
    	mother = { type = 10 id = 10066 }
    	country = FRAN
    	religion = catholic
    	culture = frankish
    	birthdate = { year = 1022 month = january day = 0 }
    	dna = "25862130133307"
    	attributes = {
    		martial = 2
    		diplomacy = 7
    		intrigue = 4
    		stewardship = 6
    		health = 5
    		fertility = 5
    	}
    	traits = {
    		wise = yes
    		scholarly_theologian = yes
    	}
    }
    2. Jordan de Hauteville, he is a bastard son of Roger de Hauteville, count of Reggio and Messina.

    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SICI...#_Toc163556376

    JORDAN of Sicily (-Syracuse 12 Sep [1091/92], bur Santa Maria, Mili San Pietro). Malaterra names "duobus filiis suis [Rogerii comitis Sicilić] Gaufredo et Jordano" when recording their betrothals[229]. Jordan is named as son of Count Roger's first marriage in Europäische Stammtafeln[230]. The source on which this is based is not known, but it would be consistent with his likely birth date given the known details of his career. According to Norwich and Houben[231], Jordan was the illegitimate son of Roger I Count of Sicily. He ended the siege of Trapani in 1077 and recaptured Syracuse from the Muslims in 1081[232]. Left in charge of Sicily during his father's absence helping Robert Guiscard in peninsular Italy, he rebelled against his father's authority, although he was later pardoned. m (1087) --- del Vasto, daughter of MANFREDO del Vasto Marchese di Savona & his wife ---. Malaterra records the betrothal of "duosque sorores [Adelaydis]" and "duobus filiis suis [Rogerii comitis Sicilić] Gaufredo et Jordano", dating the event to 1089[233].
    Code:
    character = {
    	id = { type = 10 id = xxxxxxxx }
    	name = "Jordan"
    	gender = male
    	dynasty = { type = 12 id =678 }
    	father = { type = 10 id = 1132 }
    	country = C338
    	religion = catholic
    	culture = Norman
    	birthdate = { year = 1052 month = january day = 1 }
    	dna = "09035309350920"
    	attributes = {
    		martial = 5
    		diplomacy = 4
    		intrigue = 4
    		stewardship = 4
    		health = 5
    		fertility = 5
    	}
    	traits = {
    		bastard = yes
    		deceitful = yes
    		martial_education = yes 
    	}
    }

    3. Hermann Billung, brother of Ordulf Billung and uncle of Magnus Billung, duke of Saxony

    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAXO...#_Toc146364677

    HERMANN (-1086). The Annalista Saxo names "Odulfum ducem et Herimannum comitem" as the two sons of Duke Bernhard & his wife, specifying that the latter died "sine legitimis liberis"[296]. In a later passage it records the death in 1086 of "Herimannus comes, patruus Magni ducis, sine legitimis liberis"[297]. Graf 1059/80.
    Code:
    character = {
    	id = { type = 10 id = xxxxxxxx }
    	name = "Hermann"
    	gender = male
    	dynasty = { type = 12 id =656 }
    	father = { type = 10 id = 1414 }
    	mother = { type = 10 id = 1435 }
    	country = SAXO
    	religion = catholic
    	culture = German
    	birthdate = { year = 1025 month = january day = 1 }
    	dna = "07040210099405"
    	attributes = {
    		martial = 4
    		diplomacy = 4
    		intrigue = 4
    		stewardship = 5
    		health = 6
    		fertility = 5
    	}
    	traits = {
    		vengeful = yes
    		modest = yes
    		tough_soldier = yes
    	}
    }

  15. #35
    Captain Hasimir Fenring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordarkelf
    I think you mean Mariam 41552 instead

    Done. She usually ends up in Michael's court in time though.
    Except if her father appoints her chancelor which is frequent.
    Audaces fortuna juvat

  16. #36
    Crazy Crusader Kings Creator jordarkelf's Avatar
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    Thanks Veld

    I know for your Salerno AAR you also added two brothers for the count of Salerno -- do you have their stats ready?
    Or did they impact the succesion? Roger Borsa should remain primary heir if Salerno dies sonless.

  17. #37
    The Closer Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordarkelf
    Thanks Veld

    I know for your Salerno AAR you also added two brothers for the count of Salerno -- do you have their stats ready?
    Or did they impact the succesion? Roger Borsa should remain primary heir if Salerno dies sonless.
    They impact the successionranking, but some sources even said that he had 5 brothers of which 1 was already dead in 1066.

    Another interesting character

    Berthold von Rheinfelden, son of Duke Rudolf von Rheinfelden.

    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWAB...feldendied1080

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthold_von_Rheinfelden

    BERTHOLD (-18 May 1090, bur St Blasius). He was appointed BERTHOLD I Duke of Swabia in 1079 in succession to his father, in opposition to Heinrich IV King of Germany who appointed Friedrich von Staufen to the Swabian duchy. The Chronicon of Bernold records that "Bertaldi ducis, filii regis Roudolfi" was besieged by supporters of King Heinrich in 1084[761]. The Annales Rosenveldenses records the death in 1090 of "Bertolfus dux filius Rudolfi"[762]. The Chronicon of Bernold records the death in "1090…Maio mense" of "Bertholdus dux Alemannić, filius Roudolfi regis"[763]. The necrology of Schaffhausen records the death "XV Kal Jun" of "Bertaldus dux Alemannia"[764].
    If you add him to the scenario, he will be listed as the first heir to the king of Germany, Heinrich von Franken

    Code:
    character = {
    	id = { type = 10 id = xxxxx }
    	name = "Berthold"
    	gender = male
    	dynasty = { type = 12 id =657 }
    	father = { type = 10 id = 1388 }
    	mother = { type = 10 id = 1315 }
    	country = SWAB
    	religion = catholic
    	culture = German
    	birthdate = { year = 1060 month = january day = 1 }
    	dna = "02090017340701"
    	attributes = {
    		martial = 6
    		diplomacy = 4
    		intrigue = 6
    		stewardship = 5
    		health = 4
    		fertility = 4
    	}
    	traits = {
    		martial_education = yes
                              hostile = yes
    	}
    }

  18. #38
    The Closer Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    And while I am at it

    Another 'de Hauteville' character

    Guy de Hauteville, son of Robert Guiscard

    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SICI...#_Toc163556375

    GUY of Apulia (-1107). The Annals of Romoald name (in order) "Rogerium et Robbertum atque Guidonem" as the three sons of Robert "Guiscard" & his second wife[165]. "Guidonis filii Roberti" subscribed the charter under which "Robertus dux Apulie, Calabrie et Sicilie" granted rights to "Trostainus de Mileto in Troia"[166]. According to the Alexeiad, Emperor Alexios I "secretly made overtures to Guy with offers of a marriage alliance…and [he] accepted" during his father's campaign in Durazzo in [1083/84][167]. William of Tyre records "domini Boamundi frater Guido nomine" at Constantinople in [1098][168]. He was in the service of Emperor Alexios I[169]. According to Orderic Vitalis, he was among those present in Constantinople encouraged to go to the aid of his half-brother Bohémond at the siege of Antioch[170]. Duca di Amalfi e Sorrento. The Annals of Romoald record the death of "Guido frater Rogerii ducis" in 1108[171].

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy%2C_Duke_of_Amalfi

    Code:
    character = {
    	id = { type = 10 id = 2106071142 }
    	name = "Guy"
    	gender = male
    	dynasty = { type = 12 id =678 }
    	father = { type = 10 id = 1128 }
    	mother = { type = 10 id = 1123 }
    	country = APUL
    	religion = catholic
    	culture = Norman
    	birthdate = { year = 1061 month = january day = 1 }
    	dna = "01041313220317"
    	attributes = {
    		martial = 4
    		diplomacy = 7
    		intrigue = 3
    		stewardship = 4
    		health = 6
    		fertility = 4
    	}
    	traits = {
    		
    	}
    }
    He as a lower martial stat then Roger Borsa, so Roger Borsa will stay the primary heir.

    There was also yet another son, Robert Scalio, but he was born after 1066.

  19. #39
    Crazy Crusader Kings Creator jordarkelf's Avatar
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    Veld -- Berthold is already in the game, but with a different mother, id 1390. His mother is Adelaida de Savoie.
    You give his mother as Mathilda von Franken.
    The Wikipedia article mentions his mother is uncertain, the geneology site seems to say Adelaide is his mother.

  20. #40
    The Closer Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordarkelf
    Veld -- Berthold is already in the game, but with a different mother, id 1390. His mother is Adelaida de Savoie.
    You give his mother as Mathilda von Franken.
    The Wikipedia article mentions his mother is uncertain, the geneology site seems to say Adelaide is his mother.
    Oops, copied it from an older version

    EDIT

    No, wait this site gives as his mother Mathilde von Franken
    Last edited by Veldmaarschalk; 13-10-2007 at 00:34.

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