Rome AARisen - a Byzantine AAR

So I caught up again, and man o man, I don't even need to write any Sostratos chapters, you do my work better than I ever could. Sinope was brilliant, and a nice nod to Russian navy's Sinope and Chesma victories, but poor poor Philomena, she gets no break.

Very surprising about Havigraes, I always figured it stood exactly where Pereyaslavl stood, but if it straddles the Psel it's not where Pereyaslavl is (that'd be on the Trubezh, far to the north), but maybe where the Dnepr meets the Psel, at Kremenchug, at the first rapids.

That's very very interesting. That means that Havigraes is farther into the Steppe than even early 13th. c. Rus was, and in fact is well into the 17th. c. settlement line, much south of the Sula though still north of the Vorskla. It also means that Havigraes controls the portages on the Dnepr and the one good crossing for the nomads south of Kanev and north of Chortitza. The steppe Danes must have done really well for themselves or the Horde is exceedingly lethargic.

Manuel seems to be sowing war for its own sake and I have a feeling he's spreading himself really thin.

EDIT: Dante, William Occkam...the cameos just keep coming! I wonder if Dante will develop a slightly more cynical attitude like Cervantes did, what being in the navy and all. As for Occam's Lens, that's an interesting scientific principle

RGB said:

The steppe Danes must have done really well for themselves or the Horde is exceedingly lethargic.

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I gathered that it was a bit of both.

Well, I've caught up yet again.

Looks like it's pretty much over as far as a united Empire is concerned, is this how you plan to start EU3, with a fragmented Kommenid dominated Europe-Middle East?

As far as Emperors, I'd have to say after re-reading everything (I started again from the beginning to catch up), in retrospect, Manuel was by far the best one. He was a competent administrator, unafraid to do what needs to be done, was an equally competent commander, and was really the only one to have a completely clean succession post-Megas. Basil, while easily the most brilliant military leader the Empire has seen since Trajan, wanted too much to be a chivalrous knight in the Western tradition. Sophie was easily the best of the Empresses, but she couldn't completely make up for her husband's domestic weakness, and failed as much as he did in securing a succession. Maybe that's why she lived, she was less fertile than previous and future strong empresses who died in childbirth? She was a great Empress but failed as a mother.

Basil and Sophie were the latter day Empire's repeat of Justinian and Theodora, and the results were the same: Spectacular conquests that ultimately were untenable, and an uncertain succession. Basil should have designated the clearly superior Alexios as his successor instead of his weak, unsuitable, and insane sons. Had this happened the Empire would have been spared the disaster of the Thomases and Mehtar, who squandered the treasury and confidence in the Imperial government and played no small role in the rise of the power of the feudal nobility and the diminishing of central authority.

The endless succession wars after the death of pretty much every post-Basil III emperor is what is responsible for tearing the Empire apart and weakening it overall, even as it has expanded. Indeed, the expansion has made this WORSE, as it creates more potential power base regions for potential rebels. A more compact Empire with the richest provinces in the demense of the Emperor would be more stable and more able to handle rebellions.

Add to that the insanity of the Three Thomases and there hasn't been a competent domestic AND military Imperial administration since Manuel. Andronicus, while competent, was a less capable Basil, and repeated the exact same mistake with the succession. He never should have put his leprous son in line. He made the mistake all Emperors post-Manuel made, in putting his own personal dynastic ambitions and feelings ahead of the state.

The Empire has been lucky to end up with a leader in the end strong enough to put the pieces back together. Can it happen again? Or has it's luck run out? This cycle of the Empire shattering and being reassembled at each succession can't go on forever.

Oh, and I'd be remiss if I didn't add: The writing has been BRILLIANT! BT, your character development is amazing. This should be a book. I think if you wanted to write alternative history fiction in the Byzantine setting, I think you could sell some books. Oh, and count me in the minority who loved the Christina of Dau character... it was time to have an Empress conspiracy succeed, as her's did... for a time. Would have been fun if she'd declared herself Empress like Irene did. Too bad CK has no way of allowing for female succession. I hope CK2 fixes that.

Noooo! Bloody bastard. I hope Syria breaks off and then gets gobbled up by Persia resulting in an awesome empire of win stretching from the Bosphorus to India and from the Caucasus to Arabia. That'll be adequate for a Gabrielid.

And Dante! Guess he'll write a part of the Divine Comedy inspired by the devilish explosion.

Italy will be ours once more!

btw, where is Havigraes again? Is it somewhere near Kiev?

Zzzzz... said:

Italy will be ours once more!

btw, where is Havigraes again? Is it somewhere near Kiev?

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Judging by what BT said (straddling the Psel, near the Dniepr as a transit point between caravans and ships), it's probably somewhere near Kremenchug, probably HERE, unless BT has another area he wanted to use. That's about 300 km down the river from Kiev.

RGB said:

That's very very interesting. That means that Havigraes is farther into the Steppe than even early 13th. c. Rus was, and in fact is well into the 17th. c. settlement line, much south of the Sula though still north of the Vorskla. It also means that Havigraes controls the portages on the Dnepr and the one good crossing for the nomads south of Kanev and north of Chortitza. The steppe Danes must have done really well for themselves or the Horde is exceedingly lethargic.

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Russia though was domminated by the Golden Horde unlike in this where the Blue Horde is largly fractured. And the Blue Horde did not take direct control of Urkrane, unlike the Golden Horde prefurring to set up a tribute system with Sortmark operating as in our time line Moscow did. Sortmark then like Moscow grew more powerful untile it was able to directly challenge the Mongols control.

Basil II said:

Add to that the insanity of the Three Thomases and there hasn't been a competent domestic AND military Imperial administration since Manuel. Andronicus, while competent, was a less capable Basil, and repeated the exact same mistake with the succession. He never should have put his leprous son in line. He made the mistake all Emperors post-Manuel made, in putting his own personal dynastic ambitions and feelings ahead of the state.

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To be fair Androikos didn't have a good choice; a lepor, a drunk, an offical bastard, a guy that gits used, or one of the under age sons. Which would you have chosen. As Ionnas points out before he dies Alexios would be the best, but Andronikos didn't want another Albretch. And remember kings at this time believe that they are the state. There was no concept of nationlism like today, and so the kings only thought of themselves.

Vesimir said:

Noooo! Bloody bastard. I hope Syria breaks off and then gets gobbled up by Persia resulting in an awesome empire of win stretching from the Bosphorus to India and from the Caucasus to Arabia. That'll be adequate for a Gabrielid.

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So pretty much the anceint Persion Empire

I think it's ridicolous that people are criticising Basil for 'not doing what needed to be done'. Today, if a country poisoned the leader of another country, everybody would be calling foul and they'd probably be brought before the UN in chains. The man who refused to do it would be lauded. However, because this set eight centuries ago it's perfectly fine and the roles are reversed. Make your mind up.

Oh, one more reason for playing EU3 as the player who controls Constantinople, we really want the EU3 events to be melded into the story just like you have done so awsomely in CK

BraidsMAmma said:

Oh, one more reason for playing EU3 as the player who controls Constantinople, we really want the EU3 events to be melded into the story just like you have done so awsomely in CK

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I'm sure he could do that just as well with any other EU3 nation!

Besides, there are like 954783 different EU3 AARs already about how Byzantium rises from a tiny country to become an empire again. It's boring, it has been done time and time again, and it would be a waste of BT's talents to merely add a 954784th variant to the bottom of this long list. I'd much rather see a new approach - let Constantinople rot and make the story start in some other part of th Roman world.

Leviathan07 said:

I'm sure he could do that just as well with any other EU3 nation!

Besides, there are like 954783 different EU3 AARs already about how Byzantium rises from a tiny country to become an empire again. It's boring, it has been done time and time again, and it would be a waste of BT's talents to merely add a 954784th variant to the bottom of this long list. I'd much rather see a new approach - let Constantinople rot and make the story start in some other part of th Roman world.

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I doubt that BT would let a EU3 be simply about sixth empire rising in the ashes of the fifth... My concern with Mali is only that it has played a really small part in the story this far... The story has centered about Konstantinopolis and while the city itself could burn I'm eager to follow the adventurens of the successors (wheater they are Komnenids themselves or not)...

Well, well... we still have the long and tyrranical reign of Andronikos II to look forward to before that =)

I support Persia because that area of the world, between the Mediterranean and Indochina, is particularly dynamic. While seeing a Byzzie Revival would be boring, Mali would be equally droll. You just sit, colonize, sail, colonize, try to grab worthless parts of North Africa, maybe get into Spain. It has no immediate African neighbors that threaten it. It is interesting to see a more Muslim and centralized Mali, but places like Persia, Aionite Egypt or Sortmark are interesting.

If BT wants to do Africa, I say Ethiopia. Different Christianity, isolated, has to contend with Muslim Arabs and Aionite Egypt. Also has Indian Ocean possibilities.

Oh, one more thing BT.
One thing I have really missed in this story is the Byzantine princesses.
Almost all the female main characters have been wives or lovers of the emperors, few if any have been sisters or daughters of emperors.
I had high hopes for princess Zoe but she just dissapperared out of the story...
Really hope to see one before the story ends =)

At the risk of poking holes in the story, I'm curious of a couple in-game questions. Did Manuel have a mother, was it a wench event, or did you do some editing to make him a bastard? Also, how much of this current war is a result of your own meddling, as oppossed to just the game throwing it at you?

TC Pilot said:

At the risk of poking holes in the story, I'm curious of a couple in-game questions. Did Manuel have a mother, was it a wench event, or did you do some editing to make him a bastard? Also, how much of this current war is a result of your own meddling, as oppossed to just the game throwing it at you?

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Manuel's mother was Safiya Hohenstaufen-Komnenos, daughter of Gabriel and Frederica's unholy union. Thus in terms of sheer Komnenid blood claims, Manuel actually has the best of all the contenders.

Persia would indeed be an interesting option to play, considering the nature of that part of the world. But any Knomnendid offshoot would,in the end have the same old objective: retake Konstantinopolis and rebuild the Empire...again . On the other hand, there will be a state in the Balkans that would be very interesting to follow and play: the kingdom of the von Frankens . It would be VERY interesting to see them as the try to enact Gottfried's generation-spanning plot to retake the Western crown and rebuild that Empire to ITS former glory, all the while facing rebellious Italian city-states and the German nobility, the vengeful plots of the Konstantinopolis Komnenids and of the Arpads as well who knows what other as yet unknown threats .

The von Frankens are probably the most influential and powerful family in the Empire other that the Komnenids as well as one of the most able. I think they deserve their chance to shine .

I agree with Hannibal X on Africa. Even if some countries are added for the sake of diversity, there is just not enough happening there to make it interesting.

P.S. I wonder how many new AARs will pop up once BTs mod is out and his choice of country is made. To make and alternative history AAR to and alternative history...no THAT would be something:rofl:.

AlexanderPrimus said:

Manuel's mother was Safiya Hohenstaufen-Komnenos, daughter of Gabriel and Frederica's unholy union. Thus in terms of sheer Komnenid blood claims, Manuel actually has the best of all the contenders.

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I know that, but I also know in-game that can't really have happened and BT sometimes strays from what happened in-game for storytelling purposes (Basil vs. Suleiman springs to mind). So part of me questions whether or not Safiya really existed in-game, since in-game she would have been the product of Gabriel and Frederica while she was still married to Thomas the Architect, and because Safiya's marriage to Andronikos could only work if she died quickly to make way for Agnes (thereby making Safiya's chance of being Manuel's real mother rather tenuous), was edited out, or it never really happened in-game. So I guess I'll expand my question:

First, did Safiya really exist in-game? Second, if so, who were her parents? Third, if Gabriel and Frederica, how? Fourth, how did Manuel really come about?

Hannibal X said:

If BT wants to do Africa, I say Ethiopia. Different Christianity.

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Thats really what it comes down to I suspect in many cases. *Sigh*

You already pointed out other options and alternatives, but I think these alternatives have already been done several times over. The geographic "cores" of Persia, Egypt, and the Russias have tons of AARs dedicated to them, and will usually express and manifest similar strategic goals and concerns. Why not something wholly different? Mali is not just going to "sit, colonize, try to grab worthless parts of North Africa, maybe get into Spain" as you put - it has a bustling population, Andalusi and tuareg synergies, a highly literate and bureaucratic state structure, tremendous resources at its disposal, and a Caliphal title to boot as a traditional stronghold of Malki Islam. I think it has alot of potential, if not more than most of those areas you mentioned. Moreover, since BT has mentioned he wants to do a historical style storyline, this makes sense - it gives him distance to let the world wreck the old successor states.

I´d prefer that he continues with Byzantium, because this is the story of Byzantium and Komnenos. If you think that there are a lot of aars of Byzantium the answer is very simple: don´t read this. Besides, although there may be a lot of aars the important is the quality, and I think that everybody agree with me that Rome AARisen is superior to any other

I still think Rome AARsoundar needs to be written from the view point of one of the Roman successor states. This is a story about Rome and the world she molded, it just wouldn't feel right to have the focus point be some random country from the edges of the old Empire. I would read and enjoy the story whatever BT decides upon, of course, but something just wouldn't be right if Mali was the point of view.