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Haha!

What did I tell you about Andronikos? There WILL be a 'legend of Good King Andy' - and he himself has already bought it. What he says sounds foolish but many really would remember it that way.

Doesn't change the fact that the decision was the wrong one. Andy's Empire has the best chance is poor Nikephoros were to die before him. The remaining three adult brothers now have 2 thrones to share and the Exarch may find them a lot more united than he likes.

That probably still means Spain is lost, but hey.

On a silly note: the Ghostly von Franken is hilarious.
 
I for one think Andronikos was right in his decision to refuse Alexios the diadem. Leo might be trouble down the line, but Alexios WILL be trouble down the line, and he won't be in control. The Exarch isn't Albrecht, he doesn't have the state as his priority, and he doesn't seem to be as competent either. Romanion doesn't need a kingmaker again. Demetrios isn't exactly the best choice of the three, but he would also be better than Alexios. Once again, he would be quite controversial though, and probably cause civil war just the same. Manuel would also cause a war if he was raised to Kaisar, because he is a 'bastard'. So Andronikos was boxed in between giving power to a kingmaker, giving power to a bastard, giving power to an aggressive drunk, or giving power to a young and untested son. I'd take a young and untested man over any of the other options, personally, and I can understand his aversion to giving the reins of power to a puppet. There's no way this would have turned out perfectly, so he has to just make a choice and stand by it, and I think he made the best one he could. His pride might be a problem, but I think pride or no pride, he would have come to the same conclusion. Andronikos was still a mere boy when he became Emperor, why should Leo be denied the throne because of his age?
 
I'd be interested in seeing the traits of Andronikos. And btw, if it is possible, an evolution of his traits from childhood till death (ok, ok, he'still alive, isn't he).

And a question: is my memory wrong, or did the "stress/madness"-traits become something of a dynastical "heritage" to the Komnenoi? Well, at least for the emperors since Thomas I., it seemed to me like it did.

Yours,
AdL

EDIT: @ray243
I guess general_bt is preparing the "ground" for EU3, as it's a bit stressy to start with blobs (and those tend to implode after a while).
 
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Well it seems i got my wish :) Andronikos rules undisputed from Spain to Persia. He really has performed well and im glad ive stuck with him. It is gonna be a shame seeing the Empire finally collapse in the next few years. But now i am very interested in the soon to be Basilioi of Egypt, and Alexios II Komnenos, Emperor of the Romans in the West ;)
 
I found it very interesting how Andi spoke of the Empire needing peace and the fact that he puts the Empire's needs above his own. He doesn't realize that it's Albrecht that taught him to do that. Albie's ghost is doing more than just haunting him, it lives in all he does. And to be honest, with the exception of this little bout of pride (and maybe a bit of a martyr's complex :p) he's done very well. Without him, the Empire would have fractured long ago.

P.S.
Good to see that Andi still has the good sense to be mistrustful of Syrenos. Only it's too bad that he already told Manuel of his true parentage. At this point, appointing him Archeoikos will do nothing but add new (and for the moment invisible) variable to the coming succession crisis. With the strong claim of his bloodline and the power of the Oikoi, Manuel could (and will probably try to) seize the throne.
 
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@Kirsch27: Should the identity of Manuel's mother become public knowledge, he would have a good claim to the throne. Still, you're correct; his brothers would still rise up in arms against him, probably.
 
All things considered, it's looking more and more likely that the solution of the 4th century would be needed here; Rome has simply grown too large (again) to be effectively be managed by one Emperor, never mind the corruption influence of knowing that the power to control the known world sits just past the current old man at the helm.

Of course, the same problem would arise as in the 5th century; the West, separated from the East, does not have the finances, the unity or the military might to reliably stand on its own. Even the separate "Roman Spain" way back when never really mustered forces anywhere near the East's; it just enjoyed much better rulership and administration, mitigating it's inherent inferiority.

A fractured Empire (which we all know is coming) doesn't have a lot of long-term survivability. While I don't think we'll see anything like Poles marching on Constantinople, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see a lot of the Roman successor states dissapear through the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries.
 
W00T for Leo! He sounds like potential. Emperor of Italy after the sundering perhaps? Hightime we get a Roman Empire ruled from Rome. :D

I can't wait too see the Empire crumble and see the rise of the Persian Lion v.2! He should attack the Turks soon though. An Islamic power isn't needed in this timeline. :p
 
All things considered, it's looking more and more likely that the solution of the 4th century would be needed here; Rome has simply grown too large (again) to be effectively be managed by one Emperor, never mind the corruption influence of knowing that the power to control the known world sits just past the current old man at the helm.

Of course, the same problem would arise as in the 5th century; the West, separated from the East, does not have the finances, the unity or the military might to reliably stand on its own. Even the separate "Roman Spain" way back when never really mustered forces anywhere near the East's; it just enjoyed much better rulership and administration, mitigating it's inherent inferiority.

A fractured Empire (which we all know is coming) doesn't have a lot of long-term survivability. While I don't think we'll see anything like Poles marching on Constantinople, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see a lot of the Roman successor states dissapear through the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries.

I'm not sure that you can compare the current Empire to the Roman Empire during the late fourth and fifth century. After all, there are a fair number of differences, such as the Western part of the Empire being able to enjoy a peaceful period for a very long time as compared to the Western Empire in the fifth century.

Also, I don't believe that the Western Empire is really that poor compared to the Eastern Empire. After all, the Western Empire has no problem in maintaining a huge army, and their potential enemies is in no position to threaten them. Sure, the Eastern part might be richer, but I believe that the Western part is still rich enough to be sustainable.
 
I'm not sure that you can compare the current Empire to the Roman Empire during the late fourth and fifth century. After all, there are a fair number of differences, such as the Western part of the Empire being able to enjoy a peaceful period for a very long time as compared to the Western Empire in the fifth century.

Also, I don't believe that the Western Empire is really that poor compared to the Eastern Empire. After all, the Western Empire has no problem in maintaining a huge army, and their potential enemies is in no position to threaten them. Sure, the Eastern part might be richer, but I believe that the Western part is still rich enough to be sustainable.
Should a hypothetical "Western Emperor" be able to keep France, along with Spain, in his grasp, the resulting realm would be more than just sustainable.

A hypothetical western Empire would probably consist of Spain, Italy, Mauretania and what passes for France. That's an extremely unwieldy contraption, unlikely to hold together. Each of the realms has its own problems or peculiarities:

  • Africa is solidly Roman, but can realistically only contribute limited troops to adventures north of the mediterranean... it's poor in population, and has its own perennial nomad problem, which is not going to go away until the Romans find a way to conquer the desert. Roman armies trekking through the desert, and permanently pacifying the Berbers - that's unlikely to happen before the early industrial age.
  • Italy is rich and can levy large armies, but depends on the fleet to defend its long coasts. Italy also depends on the fleet to get the army anywhere within the "Western Empire" fast enough to be of any use.
  • Spain is rich and can also levy large armies. However it's so large and heterogeneous that its politics are a thing of its own - Spanish internal politics can keep a Western Emperor busy all by themselves, without giving him any time to spare on the problems of the other parts of his realm! There's a big risk of losing the peripheral regions, since they're neither close nor important to the Spanish nobility.
  • France is a motley collection of hostile French duchies, nominally under a Roman Viceroy who would need a large army close by to maintain order. This is the middle ages, think for yourself how realistic it is that a large army can be kept close at all times. A viceroy would need to be given lands either in southern France, or in northwestern Italy, or in northeastern Spain, if he should have a realistic chance to police all those duchies. Standing armies are out of the question, who's supposed to pay for them?? This is the middle ages.

Then there is the sheer geographic distance. Should all those lands be dumped into the hands of one western emperor, he would have a hell of a job to do. How in the world is he supposed to hold court? Pick a permanent capital in Spain or Italy, and risk that the nobles from his more distant lands simply not show up? Or choose to have one capital in each part of his realm, and spend half his months travelling to and fro, just to show some presence?

Lastly, how can a hypothetical western Emperor maintain order and obedience in his provinces? The administration would have to be through a system similar to how the Spanish Habsburgs governed their domains... divide Spain, Italy and Africa into smaller fiefs, install viceroys, and let them run affairs more or less on their own. Rely on mercenaries and limited provincial armies to provide rapid reaction forces, and if a larger war erupts, ask all provinces to contribute contingents. However, the individual realms are too far away from each other for the emperor to be present all the time, so the only way to maintain the obedience of the governors and viceroys is to keep up a credible threat of military force should they become disobedient.

The big problem is that the emperor would need really deep pockets to pay for the mercenaries. If governors and viceroys know he has no money, they know he is powerless to react to disobedience. But on the other hand, unless they are obedient and send their taxes to the emperor on time, he has no way to assemble forces quickly! Do you see the Catch-22? No obedience, no money. No money, no soldiers. No soldiers, no obedience.

The Spanish Habsburgs got around this problem because they were filthy rich. Both from their taxes on the Dutch provinces, as well as from American silver. A potential western Emperor has no such gold sources so it's not going to work.

So, all in all, it's not going to work out. The hypothetical empire has no central location from which to govern it, and even if it did, running each realm on its own is a full-time job. And neither of the realms is rich enough by itself to provide the emperor with the means to keep the other realms in obedience.
 
@Leviathan07
I see no problem because most of the things if not all of them are already done by the original Roman Empire and they rule from Constantinople!
 
[*]France is a motley collection of hostile French duchies, nominally under a Roman Viceroy who would need a large army close by to maintain order. This is the middle ages, think for yourself how realistic it is that a large army can be kept close at all times. A viceroy would need to be given lands either in southern France, or in northwestern Italy, or in northeastern Spain, if he should have a realistic chance to police all those duchies. Standing armies are out of the question, who's supposed to pay for them?? This is the middle ages.
[/LIST]

Given that the western provinces are extremely wealthy compared to most middle ages nations, I think maintaining a standing army is not out of the question. The wealth of a king in Feudal France is not even comparable to the wealth of a Emperor that rules over Spain, France, Italy and North Africa that has enjoyed decades of peace and prosperity. And it's not likely that the Western Empire would be facing wars on multiple front that would overstretch the army.

Also, Why do you think that places like North Africa needs to contribute troops? Contributing enough money in taxes would help to fund for a large standing army, just like what North Africa was doing during the 4th Century.

I think too many people is underestimating how wealthy the Western provinces can be. Being able to enjoy DECADES of peace will do wonders for those regions. Not to mention that the Western part of the Empire would be able to become even richer once they discovered the Americas.

Western Europe in our own timeline was ravaged by wars. Western Europe in General_BT's time wasn't.
 
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So all is set for the mother of all succession struggles, with all potential candidates having their own (significant) powerbase. If all goes bad we can even see the Empire split among sectional lines, just as the succession of the Megaloprepis split Spain from the Empire. Still Demetrios is too incompetent, Alexios too much of a stooge to Makrinokonemnos and Alexandros too Oriental to gain the hearts of the nobility and people in my opinion. Leo looks to be a promising alternative, but many promising potential emperors have been killed off before acchieving anything before.

I think Manuel could become the true kingmaker, unless he decides to make himself the king that is...
 
@Leviathan

The problems you list exist anyways, only exacerbated by the more removed nature of Constantinople, and the increasingly insular nature of the Imperial court, never mind the perennial Mongol/Sortmark issues. As much as it pains me to say it, in the absence of great rulers, an empire this large in this period of time needs to decentralize. The Exarchates didn't work out, but perhaps with a stronger figure in the west to keep them in line, it may be able to stall the inevitable. Hell, even if you can keep the western nobles squabbling over who gets the fancy-chair in Rome or Madrid or wherever it ends up being, rather than trying to rebel against the Empire as a whole, it may mean better things for overall stability; it's what the British did rather successfully in their colonial empire, for a time.

Admittedly, medieval politics and feudal mechanics are not my strong point; classical antiquity and the Age of Enlightenment onwards is more my specialty, but keeping troublesome nobles more occupied with lower titles, rather than the Diadem in Constantinople, or independence, seems a sound enough policy.

I do, however, believe that the northern Italian city states are going to make a bid for independence irregardless of what Constantinople does. I actually think the Von Franken line might play a part in that somewhere down the line; the Italians have always had their eyes on Istria, maybe, in a rather perverse twist of history, Istria might be their means for independence.
 
@Leviathan

The problems you list exist anyways, only exacerbated by the more removed nature of Constantinople, and the increasingly insular nature of the Imperial court, never mind the perennial Mongol/Sortmark issues. As much as it pains me to say it, in the absence of great rulers, an empire this large in this period of time needs to decentralize. The Exarchates didn't work out, but perhaps with a stronger figure in the west to keep them in line, it may be able to stall the inevitable. Hell, even if you can keep the western nobles squabbling over who gets the fancy-chair in Rome or Madrid or wherever it ends up being, rather than trying to rebel against the Empire as a whole, it may mean better things for overall stability; it's what the British did rather successfully in their colonial empire, for a time.

Admittedly, medieval politics and feudal mechanics are not my strong point; classical antiquity and the Age of Enlightenment onwards is more my specialty, but keeping troublesome nobles more occupied with lower titles, rather than the Diadem in Constantinople, or independence, seems a sound enough policy.

I do, however, believe that the northern Italian city states are going to make a bid for independence irregardless of what Constantinople does. I actually think the Von Franken line might play a part in that somewhere down the line; the Italians have always had their eyes on Istria, maybe, in a rather perverse twist of history, Istria might be their means for independence.

But Constantinople has a totally different kind of role, than what a capital of a hypothetical western empire could fulfill. Constantinople straddles two large land masses, roads run from the city all the way up to the Danube and into the Balkans, and down to Armenia and Syria. There is no location in the west where you could build a capital with that sort of easy and far-reaching access. Constantinople also happens to be a prime location for the central fleet. There is no such location in the west - from a purely geographical point of view you'd have to base a western fleet from Mallorca or Sardinia, but both islands are remote backwaters, far removed from where a sensible emperor would place his capital city.

Also there is the relative size of the realms currently governed from Constantinople, vis-a-vis the size of the realm that is under Constantinople's direct control. An exarch who holds half of Iberia and Mauretania under his direct control is not that much of a threat to the Constantinople empire, because Constantinople can easily mobilize equal or greater armies to force him into obedience. Throughout most of Andronikos' rule, he could count on loyal armies from Anatolia as well as Sicily and southern Italy - those, together with the Constantinopolis force, would suffice to crush even the exarch.

ray243 said:
Given that the western provinces are extremely wealthy compared to most middle ages nations, I think maintaining a standing army is not out of the question. The wealth of a king in Feudal France is not even comparable to the wealth of a Emperor that rules over Spain, France, Italy and North Africa that has enjoyed decades of peace and prosperity. And it's not likely that the Western Empire would be facing wars on multiple front that would overstretch the army.

Also, Why do you think that places like North Africa needs to contribute troops? Contributing enough money in taxes would help to fund for a large standing army, just like what North Africa was doing during the 4th Century.

I think too many people is underestimating how wealthy the Western provinces can be. Being able to enjoy DECADES of peace will do wonders for those regions. Not to mention that the Western part of the Empire would be able to become even richer once they discovered the Americas.

Western Europe in our own timeline was ravaged by wars. Western Europe in General_BT's time wasn't.
Are they really that rich? The 13th century in OTL was the time when Venice brought down the Byzantine Empire, Genoa ran a world-spanning trade empire, and Sicily was governed by the HRE emperor in person. Italy can't possibly be better off under Byzantine viceroys, no way, I don't buy it. Sicily as of 1299 might be better off than in real history (this was when the Anjous took over and ran the island into the ground) but the rest of Italy, no way, rule by Byzantine viceroys can't possibly be better for them than when they were in control of their own trade empires.

Spain appears to be better off in total, due to having been unified under the western Komnenoi already 100 years earlier. However, as of 1299 OTL, Spain was in a pretty good position too - the Moors having been reduced to a rump Granada 40 years earlier, and the Castilian crown in control of all the important cities of what used to be Muslim Spain. The Aragonese crown in this time was busy expanding east into the Mediterranean, seizing Sicily in 1282 and Athens some time later. Not too shabby either, eh??

France - probably less well off than in OTL, but due to being ruled (after Drogo) by less competent kings than in OTL. Also due to not having the opportunity to snatch up lands in southern France, and due to needing to spend money and time in England. All of that before the Destruction of France (TM) at the hands of Emperor Andronikos.

Africa, last of all - I have no clue how they were doing economically in the 13th century. Probably not very well, after the Almohads started bringing in nomads en masse. Wikipedia says the 13th century saw mass migrations of nomadic tribes which reduced urban life. Economically I suppose Byzantine rule is putting them definitely into a better position than OTL.

In total, I don't think western Europe is so much better off being ruled by Byzantine viceroys. "Pax Byzantina" is not universal - Segeo's rebellion brought down brutal repression in Spain, for one thing. Also while Pax Byzantina was good for the eastern mediterranean (preventing the fall of Constantinople to marauding crusaders) in total it probably put the west into a less prominent position. Italy may be peaceful, but much of their tax ducats are carted off to Constantinople where the emperors spend them as they please. (Flying buttresses, anyone??)
 
If the Empire was to be split in two the only cities I can picture being used would probably be Cordoba, Carthage/Tunis and of course Rome, the latter however would probably need some extensive reconstruction to fix it after centuries of disrepair and Thomas I's sack. However another potential city could be Tunis or Carthage ,but I'm not sure exactly how well developed the area is. However it might be a very good naval base especially if they could manage to rebuild its ancient port. Actually depending on the situation Carthage might be the best potential capital of a western Empire. Also I dont really expect the Byzantines to hold onto France I foresee them potentially breaking away during the succession crisis, and possibly instituting some French version of the Magna Carta.

Also General BT I am curious in this world I know were still a good ways off ,but do you plan/think the Protestant reformation may occur in this timeline as well?