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Thread: Rome AARisen - a Byzantine AAR

  1. #5521
    I forgot to ask, when did Hugues develope brain?

  2. #5522
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    Did anyone else catch how Andronikos wants to name a son after himself? Perhaps all this speculation about whether Nikephoros will inherit is premature. Wasn't Andronikos II the worst emperor ever according to a history book segment a long, long time ago?

  3. #5523
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    Quote Originally Posted by General_BT View Post
    On the Name of the EU3 Portion – It’s been Rome AsundAAR for about a year and a half now. AlexanderPrimus just had insider information about the subject.
    I'm pretty sure that it's been discussed on this thread two or three times before as well.

    And on another note, with BT's consent, it is my pleasure to announce that due to popular support, the third and final chapter in the Scottish Komnenos subplot is officially in the works! You will all get to see the misanthropic Antemios one last time (albeit in a very different setting from what has previously been seen).

    Given my odd school schedule, I hope to have it done within three to four weeks (a safe estimate giving me plenty of time).

  4. #5524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlstadt Boy View Post
    I forgot to ask, when did Hugues develope brain?
    When he lost all influence in court and let others (that one clergy in particular, forget his name) run things for him.
    And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen.

  5. #5525
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    Quote Originally Posted by General_BT View Post
    On the Subject of Persia and Religions – Leviathan brings up some good points, but RGB brings one up that trumps—regions, even Persia, do convert. Now, thanks to Roman intervention in this timeline, there’ll be much larger minority religious populations in Persia at the start of EU3 than there were in the real world. There’ll be no overnight Orthodox conversions either—EU3 Persia is going to have several tough religious thorns in its side—go Christian, go Orthodox, or go possibly another way…
    Persia converted after Muslim Arabs conquered the entire "Perso-sphere" - i.e. Central Asia all the way up to the Indus river. Persia was not a frontier area religiously, and the Muslim claim to be the ultimate monotheistic religion made a good deal of sense.

    In the story, the Romans haven't been quite so successful, half of the "Perso-sphere" is still Muslim and far outside of Roman control.

    Besides, Zoroastrianism was a highly ritualistic religion, centered on the priestly caste. Islam has no priestly caste, the Muslim faithful has a very intimate relationship with God, without mediators (a bit like Protestantism the way Luther idealized it).

    To convert people to medieval Christianity, you not only have to make them accept the religious tenets, you also have to make them accept that there is a whole new priestly class that intends to lord it over the people, and step between the individual and God. Orthodox and Catholic Christianity - as practised in the middle ages - are fairly ritualistic religions, intended to be practised by the priests, not the common folk. It's like turning free peasants into serfs. You have to beat it into the people, beat them hard until their will is broken and they become sheep. Not too difficult if they're used to being sheep. Very difficult if they're used to being free people.
    Last edited by Leviathan07; 28-01-2011 at 12:46.

  6. #5526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan07 View Post
    You have to beat it into the people, beat them hard until their will is broken and they become sheep. Not too difficult if they're used to being sheep. Very difficult if they're used to being free people.
    Sounds like an excellent narrative direction for the otherwise magnificent Gabrielids of the Peacock Throne...I mean come on...they get a reformed Desert Lion, the uncannily kooperating Kommenids, and now Alexandros Megas Reborn? This is the lineage of Tommy Pope-tosser for Pantokrator's sake!
    Last edited by Bagricula; 28-01-2011 at 13:16.
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  7. #5527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagricula View Post
    Sounds like an excellent narrative direction for the otherwise magnificent Gabrielids of the Peacock Throne...I mean come on...they get a reformed Desert Lion, the uncannily kooperating Kommenids, and now Alexandros Megas Reborn? In this AAR, that's just plain unnatural...
    Well they've had brilliant leaders so I suppose some of that brilliance may have awed the locals into adopting (some) Greek customs. The Gabrieline court probably is full of people who adore the Komnenids and don't mind having an unbeliever lead their nation, as long as he's such an awesome unbeliever.
    Alexandros is probably going to be the darling of the military elite - as long as he's even-handed in his treatment of Greeks and Persians he might as well be a Moon-worshipper for all they care.

    However geniuses are the exception, not the rule...

    BTW, Zoroastrianism (Mazdaism) lingered for quite a long time under the Caliphs. To quote the all-knowing Wikipedia:
    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Iran#Islamization_in_Iran
    Islamization in Iran
    See also: Islamization in Iran

    Richard Bulliet's "conversion curve" indicates that only about 10% of Iran converted to Islam during the relatively Arab-centric Umayyad period. Following the Abbasid revolution of 749-51, in which Iranian converts played a major role, the Caliphate's center of gravity moved to Mesopotamia and underwent significant Iranian influences. [8] Accordingly, the Muslim population of Iran rose from approx. 40% in the mid 9th century to close to 100% by the end of 11th century. [9]

    Islam was readily accepted by Zoroastrians who were employed in industrial and artisan positions because, according to Zoroastrian dogma, such occupations that involved defiling fire made them impure. [10] Moreover, Muslim missionaries did not encounter difficulty in explaining Islamic tenants to Zoroastrians, as there were many similarities between the faiths. According to Thomas Walker Arnold, for the Persian, he would meet Ahura Mazda and Ahriman under the names of Allah and Iblis. [10] Muslim leaders in their effort to win converts encouraged attendance at Muslim prayer with promises of money and allowed the Quran to be recited in Persian instead of Arabic so that it would be intelligible to all. [10] The first complete translation of the Qur'an into Persian occurred during the reign of Samanids in the 9th century. Seyyed Hossein Nasr suggests that the rapid increase in conversion was aided by the Persian nationality of the rulers. [9][11]

  8. #5528
    Blasted Conniving Roman General_BT's Avatar
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    Bagricula - Eh, for any Christian power to take and hold Persia, they're going to have to have a series of exceptional and/or brilliant rulers. If not, the whole thing collapses like so many other groups that have invaded the region. I'm working on another update as we speak--an interim on trade and the slightly underappreciated Roman Navy... new flag btw?

    Leviathan07 - All true points. It doesn't change the fact that over time, for various reasons (personal, political, economic, what have you) people can and do convert, priestly class or no. Additionally, there are very large bodies of Nestorian and other Christian minorities floating around still throughout Persia proper, as well as all sorts of other minor religious groups that persisted despite requiring a priestly caste. In our timeline, most of these groups were wiped out during the invasions and purges of Timur--that hasn't happened (yet at least) in this timeline, so there are boatloads of possibilities.

    Now you are right that the Gabrielids are going to have to do some interesting dancing--the coalition of Muslims and Romans that was forged by Gabriel to stop the Mongols has no use anymore, and its inevitable that religious questions will begin to crop up (we saw the start of this with the Aionites in Mesopotamia), despite the brilliance or amiability of the rulers. Persia's future isn't set staying Muslim--neither is it set going Orthodox Christian, or set doing something else. It's what'll make telling the story of Persia in the EU3 timeframe so interesting.

    Though I did misspeak when I listed the choices Persia would face in the EU3 mod. It should have been go Muslim, go "Christian" (Orthodox isn't the only branch available, nor the wisest), or go a third way. There will by no means a simple dichotomy going on there...

    As for France, that whole thing is a situation ripe to turn sour quick. Except under Drogo it never had the centralized, powerful monarchy it needed to be an empire, but its simply too large for any those dukes to control, at least right now. The Roman 'viceroy' is probably going to be ruling in name only, while the dukes fight each other to a standstill... considering Andronikios' main goal was simply keeping France down, it gets the job done short term, even if its messy. If someone could unite France again though...

    This is all, of course, assuming the campaign even succeeds. If Makrinokomnenos fails, its a rather moot point!

    Ah, and finally on colonization, EU3: That's part of the reason I'd like to play Mali, or one of the smaller Roman successor states. The big guns--Egypt, Persia, Syria, etc.--are likely for the next fifty or hundred years after the fall to be gazing inward, at the Med, trying to either stake their own claim to being imperial, or outright take Constantinople to try to restore "their" empire. This will leave all sorts of openings for others--Mahgrebis, Malians, the Roman Spaniards, the French successors, Burgundy, Scotland, the list goes on, to explore the New World while the Komnenoi are duking things out amongst each other. The interesting fight (where I might go back to taking a successor heavyweight) is in the 17th/18th century, when the Komnenoi of the East Med finally realize they're behind and have to play catchup... if they survive that is...

    von Sachsen - His bastard brother Gaston, yes. Hugues also has a rather formidable son we might meet, if there's time...

    AlexanderPrimus - I think I sum up everyone's opinion by shouting "Hooray!"

    The_Archduke - There was a blurb from a modern historian in the update immediately after Basil's death who called Andronikos II 'tyrannical,' then oddly defended him by saying the fault for the empire's fall lay with Basil, not Andronikos II or a later Anastasios II. Though just because there's a possible child named Andronikos doesn't mean he'll inherit. I do throw out lots of red herrings, I admit.

    Carlstadt Boy - The proper question is "When did functioning brains figure out how to overrule King Hugues?" As for the 'Reconquista' "control" is a very loose word here. Andronikos doesn't intend on ever really ruling in France proper--his plan is more to make it broken and fractious (with Romanion looming to keep the pot stirring) so as to make sure another Capetian threat never rises again.

    Hannibal X - Haha! I'm glad someone recognized Leonard Nimoy! Incidentally, Alexandros has no sons of his own--his heir is his brother Isaakios, who has no less than five by this point (if I remember right)...

    asd21593 - Imperial overreach? What's that? Never can happen...ever...

    vadermath - Anatolia is still under the command of Ioannis Angelos, its decidedly loyal. The Basilikon is under Tatikios, friend of Andronikos' father and also decidedly loyal, however he's very old (in his mid 60s) and will likely retire or die soon. Whoever replaces him will have command of the most powerful imperial armies, arguably with more power than the Megas Domestikos. As for Alexandros, Andronikos is definitely in a pickle. Word by this point is reaching Konstantinopolis of how far he's progressed, and amongst the populace there's definitely going to be calls for the Persian to receive a triumph--possibly the ultimate slap to Andronikos' pride, not to mention bringing Alex into Konstantinopolis if he goes along with it...

    Qorten - Flanders at this point is technically split--the northern half of the region is under Burgundian control (part of the royal demense) if I remember correctly, while the southern half is a 'Duchy of Flanders' as a vassal of France. Andronikos plans to taking the Duchy into his own slew of vassals, but its unlikely in the short term at least the two parts will be unified. There's 100 years left to go, though, so plenty of things could happen...

    TC Pilot - I've thought about that actually. Coordinating playing times would be a puzzle, but if I could line up people to play, and find a common time to play, that'd be the perfect solution. There'd be plenty of spots--and at that point, I'd definitely be claiming Mali for my own!

    Nikolai - No middlemen and tariffs, and also more economy--its cheaper to send goods in bulk by ship than by land (as well as faster). So if a sea route can be found, it could be reasoned to be faster possibly, considering the land route by caravan still takes ages...

    Zzzzz... - There'd still be the search for fewer middlemen, as well as a larger profit-margin through a sea route. Add to that by EU3 the Middle Eastern route isn't necessarily open (there is a massive civil war going on amongst successor states ) then you've got all sorts of reasons to look for an alternative...

    And yes, if Andronikos' plan works, you will have a series of semi-autonomy duchies in France under Roman protection, and a French King ruling the rump Royaume d'Angleterre from London...

    cezar87 - Gottfried is following through on his analysis that the Empire will fall, and he wants himself and/or his children to be in position, ready to take advantage of the situation when it does. Considering the Emperor's sworn enemy is making friends and money like crazy, the war in the West is dragging, and the Emperor's health is starting to decline, Gottfried is starting to hedge his bets that chaos is coming sooner rather than later.

    RGB 1 - I thought at least one reader would catch the reference to the Notched Sword!
    2 - Nikephoros knows he's got leprosy, partly its because he often doesn't know he's wounded, and partly its he knows his legacy's on the line, he's trying to look extra brave and good for the army.
    3 - Potentially, though Isaakios is a different cut from a military man bent on unifying an empire...
    4 - It just would make logical sense for a Komnenid Egyptian family, especially one who's main goal so far has been to enrich themselves, to avoid dynastic Med squabbles and instead secure the Red Sea trade. Now the Egyptian Komnenids are wealthy as Croesus--will they start spending that cash to make their own bid for fame?
    5 - It's hard to find someone modeling armor that looks serious...
    6 - Not all eternity by all means...
    7 - Considering its a political marriage, probably. Considering Phillipos, probably not.

    Enewald - Awww, now you're assuming! He could just be inviting Nizam into the palace for milk and cookies! He could have entirely pure intentions, but yes, knowing the history of this AAR...

    ray243 - There's a definite possibility states ruled by Komnenoi could survive a long long period. To the 20th century would be stretching it, but its conceivable. Architecturally you'd likely see a nice mix of ideas--Byzantine and Islamic architecture would likely become mainstays, but there'd be Gothic sprinkled in as well (thanks to Thomas III and his love of flying buttresses ). Intellectually, I've been playing things that scholasticism has followed much the same course, in different locations with different people. Many of the root questions it dealt with would still exist in this timeline, and its probable that future questions of the Reniassance would still be brought up--perhaps not in the same timeframe, or in the same locations. I'm wrestling with the idea of much of the 'Old Empire' intellectually ossifying for a period... the "We've been the center of the world for hundreds of years, why don't you change to be like us?" syndrome...
    Last edited by General_BT; 28-01-2011 at 13:35. Reason: clarifications based on posts while I was posting :p
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  9. #5529
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    How about playing Istria?
    Frankokomnenoi?

    Between the old Roman eastern and western Empires, now between Pope - the Queen of Cities - Germans - Mediterranean.
    Straight in the middle. They could attempt to become the Sacra Romanum Imperum. Marry like Habsburgs and dominate the seas like Venetians, or failing in that.

    One of the Germanic successor state of Rome, once again.
    Instead of Austria-Hungary and Habsburgs in the middle of Europe fighting everyone, we'd have the heirs of von Franken doing all nasty stuff.

  10. #5530
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    How could you?! The most valuable Polish Crown Jewel to be broken down?! I implore you, make them keep it as an oddity in their castle, anything, just don't destroy it! Bloody Romans. I would've voiced my discontent earlier but I was not here.

    I think playing the Imperial City of Venice is a good idea. If it would be ruled by an offspring of the Gabrieline branch it would be a very good idea. And observing as the world develops 'on its own' is a better idea than looking as an empire rises once more.
    Last edited by Vesimir; 28-01-2011 at 14:35.
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  11. #5531
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    BT, new RPG starting up as a successor to Baroque...will probably be either HYW or War of the Roses focused, and I've got ancestors traceable back to the Ancien Regime, so I'm leaning that way.

    I've always had a soft spot in my heart for La Serenissima, suspended between the sky and the sea, between Greeks and barbarians, Osmanli and Popes...but as much as I'd love to see the Republic free again and turning the Caribbean into a Great laguna, I think the Mali will give your imagination and your pen greater scope for excellent writing.

    Not that I wouldn't appreciate an occasional Venetian cameo...

    Down with the ossified scholastics! Up with free-wheeling nominalists!

  12. #5532
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    Quote Originally Posted by General_BT View Post
    [b]TC Pilot - I've thought about that actually. Coordinating playing times would be a puzzle, but if I could line up people to play, and find a common time to play, that'd be the perfect solution. There'd be plenty of spots--and at that point, I'd definitely be claiming Mali for my own!
    I'm sure you could persuade enough people to invest some time into it. Only way to know for sure if you can get a workable time is to sound people out.

    'course, we're getting a bit ahead of the curve here. Is there even a mod yet?

  13. #5533
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    To convert people to medieval Christianity, you not only have to make them accept the religious tenets, you also have to make them accept that there is a whole new priestly class that intends to lord it over the people, and step between the individual and God. Orthodox and Catholic Christianity - as practised in the middle ages - are fairly ritualistic religions, intended to be practised by the priests, not the common folk. It's like turning free peasants into serfs. You have to beat it into the people, beat them hard until their will is broken and they become sheep. Not too difficult if they're used to being sheep. Very difficult if they're used to being free people.
    So that's good, because Iranian peasants were no freer than elsewhere; but I believe you're incorrect in the main point. It was the urban classes that converted first, and the military/service classes. If the Christians hold all the real power and discriminate subtly in terms of opportunities, you will get a steady stream of conversions, like Balkan Christians converted to Islam under the Ottomans or the Volga/Steppe Muslims to Orthodoxy in Muscowy. Both these states relied heavily on a convert service class and both started as minority populations in their new areas. Both achieved considerable though incomplete success.

    I wouldn't even blink if this Roman Persia lasted all the way until its equivalent of a *WW1-style disaster in the Age of Nationalism.

    ...but I do admit I've over-dwelt on the subject and no analysis is really definitive.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by RGB; 28-01-2011 at 16:49.
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  14. #5534
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGB View Post
    So that's good, because Iranian peasants were no freer than elsewhere; but I believe you're incorrect in the main point. It was the urban classes that converted first, and the military/service classes. If the Christians hold all the real power and discriminate subtly in terms of opportunities, you will get a steady stream of conversions, like Balkan Christians converted to Islam under the Ottomans or the Volga/Steppe Muslims to Orthodoxy in Muscowy. Both these states relied heavily on a convert service class and both started as minority populations in their new areas. Both achieved considerable though incomplete success.
    The Ottomans throughout their empire also relied on a converted service class, with phenonmenal success - their most gifted architects, generals, governors and scholars were converts. But the bulk of the populations remained Christian. The monarchy can only employ so many people in its service. Most people remain outside of its scope. They can't possible employ the entire warrior class of Persia as their retainers, and submit them to their subtle discriminations - Persia under the Turks didn't really have a feudal nobility, AFAIK. More like, influential family clans who led all kinds of lifestyles, and sometimes showed up to fight alongside the rulers, and sometimes not. Persia didn't really get a centralized monarchy with nobles and such until the 18th century AFAIK.

  15. #5535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan07 View Post
    Persia didn't really get a centralized monarchy with nobles and such until the 18th century AFAIK.
    Now there's something to consider, definitely.

    Productive discussion!
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  16. #5536
    It will be so funny if Italy emerged as the most powerful successor state, and starts to re-enact history by taking over the the rest of the Mediterranean as a Republic.

    It will be even more funny to see what the age of nationalism would be like, with almost every major nation in the Mediterranean insulting one another for "not being a true Roman". Come to think of it, I think this term would become an extremely common insult in the 20th century.

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    Will "No True Roman" replace "No True Scotsman" as a stock phrase?

    Will there ever be a Caesar's Palace in Vegas? Or will it be called "Kaisar's Mansion" instead?

    Stay tuned for new installments of Rome AARisen!!

  18. #5538
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    Leviathan07 - Well, I think a great deal will depend on what one's personal definition of 'Roman' is... the empire is broad enough and encompasses enough people with enough different cultures that by the Age of Nationalism, almost any local peculiarity could be declared 'True Roman' and anything else 'Not True...'

    ray243 - Right now there's really a tale of two Italys in the Komnenid Empire. Southern Italy in this timeline wasn't really abandoned by the Byzantine's for too long, as the Norman invaders were overrun in the 1140s. That region by this point can safely be considered 'Roman' in the sense defined by Constantinople. Northern Italy, from about Orvieto on, is a completely different beast. Since its conquest about a century earlier, its been a continual hotbed of rebellion, and its full of cantankerous city-states and local republics who acknowledge a local thematic prince, but are constantly testing the boundaries. Currently the only thing really keeping them in the Empire is a) the real power of the Empire to come and crush a regional revolt, b) memories of how that happened to last regional revolt (Milan, for example, no longer exists), and c) greed, since the Roman Empire plugs its constiuent parts into the largest trade network in Europe (see below). Should the imperial threat of destruction abate, or trade slacken, northern Italy is ripe to explode.

    RGB et al - Persia had very ancient noble families that even as late as the 16th and 11th and 12th century could trace lineage back to Sassanid forefathers (the Samanids for example). It wouldn't be far fetched for some of them to still be running around, with newer families with power granted by this storylines rather sedentary Seljuks bulking their ranks...

    TC Pilot - There was a map. Then DW came out, and now there'll have to be a new map. There's 10 chapters to go, so there's plenty of time though.

    Bagricula - Well, like I said, I probably will end up moving from country to country on occasion, especially to keep weirdness down to a minimum (for example, trying to curtail the annoying DW habit of countries have individual provinces scattered all over from the CA debacle). Even if Venice doesn't get played, it, like the other successors, will get followed on and reported about on a regular basis. I'm thinking of making an update every 5 years in game, with notes on all the goings on in the world during that time, so all the successors are discussed (Thank you, Paradox, for the History tab in EU3! )

    Vesimir - I tossed out the name, hoping it'd touch someone! Unfortunately Gottfried has no idea of the future value of the Notched Sword, to him its simplyE an awkward blade with gold that could be melted down.

    Enewald - I misread Frankokomnenoi as Frankenkomnenoi. I was about to ask what foul experiments were done to my characters!


    Well, I was bored and felt productive last night and tonight (in other words, I wanted to play with Photoshop more ), so I put together a rather quick interim on trade in the Komnenid world, as well as fulfilled the request from way back about a little on the Komnenid Navy...

















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  19. #5539
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    And how far do your ships sail?
    Azores? Cape Verde? Iceland?

    Seychelles, Mombasa, Mozambique?
    Kutch, Goa, Ceylon?
    Or as far as to the Celestial Empire?

    And has the canal in Egypt been reopened?
    A direct route through the desert as it once was?

  20. #5540
    Thanks for the navy.

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