Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Rome AARisen - a Byzantine AAR

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
So soon will be seeing some serious ass kicking by Alexandros deep into Germany? Seems like a lot of fun. :p

BTW, you're roleplaying those army numbers, right? Romanoion can muster only 360k men, I remember I could send almost 400k with only starting territories, Syria and Judea.
 
And so, possibly one of the greatest clashes of this century is about to begin! Exciting times indeed! It'll also be amusing to see the Persian armies fighting in the Balkans; in the midst of all the Gabrielid plotting, scheming, and rebelling, they never made it past Anatolia.
 
General_BT said:
Leviathan07, vadermath and Tommy4ever – I told my students back when I was teaching to imagine a Mad Max-esque post-apocalyptic world. You’re walking around, and you are surrounded by the shadows of immense skyscrapers, overgrown roads, broken pieces of technology. You might know what they once were, maybe what they did, but you had no idea how to replicate them, or use them. To early medieval Europe, that is how it felt to walk amongst the Roman ruins—one would be awed, confused, and frightened by them at the same time (for as Leviathan notes, they often became havens for bandits or other undesirable creatures).

Thanks for the post Leviathan! What was your reason for being in Thailand? Vacation?
Click to expand...

Vacation. My gf and me did a 3 week tour through the country - a couple of days in Bangkok, then north for culture/history and sightseeing, then south for the sea and beaches. Wonderful country!

For the history nerd there's plenty to see and learn (I was totally ignorant on SE Asian history until I read the lonely planet on Thailand). The sites are all very nicely restored, they care a lot about their heritage. The oldest stuff you can see is from the Khmer period, which means 11th/12th century in Thailand. To really learn about it, you have to do a lot of readon of your own, though, the sights have inscriptions and the museums have audio guides but it's not so helpful. The Thais themselves care about their heritage but they don't really care about history. Buddhism teaches that all things pass, that might have something to do with it, they prefer living in the present. :D

We had planned to also see Angkor Wat but we dropped that plan, it would just have been too much traveling. But they told me that as a history nerd you haven't really been to SE Asia unless you have also been to Angkor.

In any case there's a link to the story - SE Asian history basically starts around what passes as the early medieval period in Europe, 8th/9th century CE. The Khmer empire rose and fell much in parallel with the Byzantine empire - it peaked in the early 13th century, then declined until they abandoned their capital in the 1400s, with their neighbours the Thai spreading their own religion and taking over the hegemony. The Khmer never really disappeared, though, their empire just went into hibernation and the Cambodians are certain it will awake once again in the future. :)
 
Last edited:
This is going to backfire magnificantly. Isn't it?

1. Nikephoros will get himself killed or become a coward.
2. That would leave the drunkard on the throne and pitch Manuel into headlong collision with him.
3. The new Empress will become turn out to be a schemer, and will probably muddy the succession.
4. He is sending a rapier against the blunt instrument. Alexandross will slaughter the Germans.
5. He'll succed in repelling the invasions but the punishing terms will permanently piss off German rulers.
6. probably something even worse.
 
Andronikos may be overestimating his possibilities against the Germans. Sure he can trounce their armies, but how does he intend to force them to any sort of concession regarding the Imperial rank?? Even if he captured Hesso and his cronies and humiliates them, what's to stop Hesso's heir from going to the pope and having himself crowned Emperor again... The German-Hungarian realm certainly is large enough to make the Arpad claim to Imperial rank plausible enough. Unless Andronikos is willing to send an army into Germany proper to raze Vienna to the ground, I don't see how he can force anything beyond money and border adjustments from Hesso.

BTW small nitpick:

BT, you mentioned Aachen as Hesso's capital. But according to your map, Hesso's dominions only reach to the eastern shore of the Rhine. That puts Aachen in Burgundian lands.

With the lands spread out as they are, the most sensible location for a capital would be somewhere along the upper Danube - Regensburg, Passau or Vienna. Regensburg would make sense, it's a far enough from the Roman lands and central enough to Hesso's German holdings. It's located along the Danube, so Hungary is only a couple of day's journey away by river boat.
 
Last edited:
Baring a large scale rebellion in Rhomanion (perhaps a rising in wealthy Egypt) I really can't see how she can lose this was. Everything seems stacked in the favour of the Romans/
 
@Leviathan: Indeed, I think the peace terms between the Romans and Germany will be the most interesting part of this whole affair; Will Andronikos truly be able to achieve such a tremendous victory, one that will be capable of knocking the "Roman Empire" bit out of the "Holy Roman Empire"? And if so, what will the Arpad Empire be called then? I know a question regarding a name change seems trivial now, but after this Empire is no longer Roman (even in name, after all the Eastern Romans of this era are Greeks anyway), the Arpad dynasty might have a much harder time keeping it's realm intact, and much duress could follow: The German nobles would, after such a great concession to the Greeks, finally have a new reason to rise up against their liege. Or, who knows, the Empire could, at least in its present state, be abolished half a millennium sooner than IRL, and be replaced with a much more centralized German Empire. Though I don't agree with you on one point: I doubt that, after renouncing their claim on the title of "Roman Emperor", the Germans would be able to get it back very easily:

a) After such a great defeat of the Papacy, France, and the HRE at the hands of the Greeks, would these 3 parties really be on such good terms? German relations with the Papacy are fragile at best even now, let's not forget that the only reason the HRE is not fighting on the Byzantine side is because Hesso thinks they poisoned his sister; and nothing more. After the hypothetical Roman victory, Andronikos will most probably explain to him that this is a lie during the peace talks. For all we now, Hesso might attack the West in retribution, not ask for an Imperial crown from them, and the same goes for his heir.

b) If Hesso were to give up the Imperial Crown, would the papacy truly give his heir another one, even if they were on the best of terms? If the Pope does so, the Imperial title given out by him will lose a lot of its influence and authority if he hands it out like candy to every descendant of an ex-Emperor who loses it rightfully in a peace treaty. Plus, with Byzantium justly dissolving the German claims on the title in a fair fight, would the other Christian nations truly view the Arpad state as an Empire afterwards, even with the Pope's blessing? Let's not forget that the Papacy itself has lost a lot of its authority after losing Rome and Italy. No, for the Pope to renew the lost German claims to a Roman throne, the currently all-powerful Roman Empire will need to be severely weakened, and after beating France, the HRE, and the Papacy at once, that would take a good few years, and maybe a distant descendant of Hesso's.

But most importantly: all this is a valid discussion point only after a Roman victory. Right now, that seems quite far-fetched.

@Tommy: For the Romans to win, every theatre of war needs to play out exactly as Andronikos has planned it, with particular timing, and that is assuming no new theatres are opened up in the meantime (like Danes or some other nation using the chance to strike). And in the Roman Empire...things rarely work out exactly according to plan:D But seriously, I don't think there's much room for wartime improvisation this time around. And even the far-seeing BT stated that the Roman Empire was at its zenith a few updates ago. As an old Balkan saying goes: "From the top of the hill, every road leads down."
 
Alexandros would fail, Andronikos was sure of that. His agents would slip to the Germans every bit of intelligence on where Alexandros was moving, and how many men he had. Then it’d be Andronikos, arriving with the perfectly equipped and trained Basilikon, 90,000 strong, who would break the German invasion. Andronikos would make Hesso kneel for his trouble, and agree to let him remain King of Germany and Hungary if he surrendered his claims to the crown imperial. There was one emperor, one Vice Gerent of Christ, and that man alone should wear a diadem!
Click to expand...

Halfway into the update, but have to comment. This is a reason for downfall if I ever saw one in this story... A lot can, and probably will, go wrong with this plan.

And then:
The Megas Komnenos smiled—it was all coming together, and if all went according to plan, the world would be Andornikos’ oyster once again…
Click to expand...
That. Is a BIG. If.
Arrogance is soon going to bite his lilly ass, I'm sure.;)
 
How does he get into Northern Germany? :D
Unleashing Alexandros shall turn out to be surely intriguing.

Do not tell us your AI friends decided to sail to Pommerania from the ends of the eastern Mediterranean...? :cool:
 
vadermath said:
@Leviathan: Indeed, I think the peace terms between the Romans and Germany will be the most interesting part of this whole affair; Will Andronikos truly be able to achieve such a tremendous victory, one that will be capable of knocking the "Roman Empire" bit out of the "Holy Roman Empire"? And if so, what will the Arpad Empire be called then? I know a question regarding a name change seems trivial now, but after this Empire is no longer Roman (even in name, after all the Eastern Romans of this era are Greeks anyway), the Arpad dynasty might have a much harder time keeping it's realm intact, and much duress could follow: The German nobles would, after such a great concession to the Greeks, finally have a new reason to rise up against their liege. Or, who knows, the Empire could, at least in its present state, be abolished half a millennium sooner than IRL, and be replaced with a much more centralized German Empire. Though I don't agree with you on one point: I doubt that, after renouncing their claim on the title of "Roman Emperor", the Germans would be able to get it back very easily:

a) After such a great defeat of the Papacy, France, and the HRE at the hands of the Greeks, would these 3 parties really be on such good terms? German relations with the Papacy are fragile at best even now, let's not forget that the only reason the HRE is not fighting on the Byzantine side is because Hesso thinks they poisoned his sister; and nothing more. After the hypothetical Roman victory, Andronikos will most probably explain to him that this is a lie during the peace talks. For all we now, Hesso might attack the West in retribution, not ask for an Imperial crown from them, and the same goes for his heir.

b) If Hesso were to give up the Imperial Crown, would the papacy truly give his heir another one, even if they were on the best of terms? If the Pope does so, the Imperial title given out by him will lose a lot of its influence and authority if he hands it out like candy to every descendant of an ex-Emperor who loses it rightfully in a peace treaty. Plus, with Byzantium justly dissolving the German claims on the title in a fair fight, would the other Christian nations truly view the Arpad state as an Empire afterwards, even with the Pope's blessing? Let's not forget that the Papacy itself has lost a lot of its authority after losing Rome and Italy. No, for the Pope to renew the lost German claims to a Roman throne, the currently all-powerful Roman Empire will need to be severely weakened, and after beating France, the HRE, and the Papacy at once, that would take a good few years, and maybe a distant descendant of Hesso's.

But most importantly: all this is a valid discussion point only after a Roman victory. Right now, that seems quite far-fetched.

@Tommy: For the Romans to win, every theatre of war needs to play out exactly as Andronikos has planned it, with particular timing, and that is assuming no new theatres are opened up in the meantime (like Danes or some other nation using the chance to strike). And in the Roman Empire...things rarely work out exactly according to plan:D But seriously, I don't think there's much room for wartime improvisation this time around. And even the far-seeing BT stated that the Roman Empire was at its zenith a few updates ago. As an old Balkan saying goes: "From the top of the hill, every road leads down."
Click to expand...

Hesso has no claim on Andronikos' crown, so at least that he can give up "just like that". What he does have is the claim to be an equal of the Roman Emperor. This, Andronikos may desire to take from him, perhaps by making him kneel and calling him "master" or some such thing. I very much doubt he would ask for Hesso to hand over his imperial crown - for one thing, he has no use for a German-made crown, and another thing is that Hesso of course won't bring such priceless gems with him on campaign. Can't give away what you ain't got. :)

The Byzzies may this fixed idea that they are the only proper Empire around, but from the rest of the world's point of view this is, frankly, delusional. The western Empire has a tradition from Charlemagne all the way to the German dynasties, that's almost 500 years of tradition now. Hesso won't - and can't - just sign away all of this, as if it never existed. Not to mention that the Byzantines themselves have handed out "Basileos" titles like candy some time ago. The Persians used to be "Basileos", and IIRC didn't the title also spread to other offices??

Lastly there is the issue that the Byzzies really don't have so much leverage against Hesso, unless (or even if) they capture him personally during the campaign. Germany and Hungary are very far from the power centers of the Roman Empire, no Roman armies ever marched there. The Empire isn't so good at projecting power far beyond its borders, while strong armies are needed to maintain order and hold its other enemies at bay... Surely the nobles back home (as well as Danes, Arabs, Turks etc) would love nothing better than to see the Emperor on a multi-year campaign deep in Germany's swamps and forests, far from Constantinople? They'd take over the reins of the state in no time. It has been quite a while since the last time factions in Constantinople tried to take control... :) Patriarch Thomas in his younger days, right?

Oh and in any case, as Nikolai mentioned, Andronikos' plan sounds very risky and is probably not going to work out as planned :)
 
Icecream in Aachen in 15 days? :D

I'll skip the part in which I say Alexandros is perfect cause I say it in all of my posts. It'll be delightfull to see Andronikos' world shattered with every city Alexandros captures. I have something else to say however. I'm worried that Alexandros is becoming too native. Something I wouldn't like to see. If the Roman culture will become only a small influence on the Persian culture and language, Persia will stop being the Oriental Rome and will become... just Persia. So I call for more Roman influence, soot becoming used by everyone in the nobility, and AWESOMENESS!

Also, I knew he would be bi. You said, 'Why does he have to be bi?', but I knew. :p
 
Very nice update. I really like your armies map with the little shields, and the little blurbs on the different regiments.

I'm sure the War with the West will prove an interesting turn of events. Of course I had to smile when I saw that Harold Godwinson would be commanding the grand army of the west.

Lastly, both the Companions and the 10,000 Immortals for Alexander-the-Great-the-Second? Sounds like somebody has got something epic planned, that's for sure. ;)
 
Leviathan07 said:
Hesso has no claim on Andronikos' crown, so at least that he can give up "just like that". What he does have is the claim to be an equal of the Roman Emperor. This, Andronikos may desire to take from him, perhaps by making him kneel and calling him "master" or some such thing. I very much doubt he would ask for Hesso to hand over his imperial crown - for one thing, he has no use for a German-made crown, and another thing is that Hesso of course won't bring such priceless gems with him on campaign. Can't give away what you ain't got. :)

The Byzzies may this fixed idea that they are the only proper Empire around, but from the rest of the world's point of view this is, frankly, delusional. The western Empire has a tradition from Charlemagne all the way to the German dynasties, that's almost 500 years of tradition now. Hesso won't - and can't - just sign away all of this, as if it never existed. Not to mention that the Byzantines themselves have handed out "Basileos" titles like candy some time ago. The Persians used to be "Basileos", and IIRC didn't the title also spread to other offices??

Lastly there is the issue that the Byzzies really don't have so much leverage against Hesso, unless (or even if) they capture him personally during the campaign. Germany and Hungary are very far from the power centers of the Roman Empire, no Roman armies ever marched there. The Empire isn't so good at projecting power far beyond its borders, while strong armies are needed to maintain order and hold its other enemies at bay... Surely the nobles back home (as well as Danes, Arabs, Turks etc) would love nothing better than to see the Emperor on a multi-year campaign deep in Germany's swamps and forests, far from Constantinople? They'd take over the reins of the state in no time. It has been quite a while since the last time factions in Constantinople tried to take control... :) Patriarch Thomas in his younger days, right?

Oh and in any case, as Nikolai mentioned, Andronikos' plan sounds very risky and is probably not going to work out as planned :)
Click to expand...

I believe the HRE always considered itself the true and only heir to the old Roman Empire, and therefore has a claim on the title of the only Roman Emperor, not an equal to the Eastern one. When I said "Imperial Crown", I was being metaphorical, and referring to the title of "Roman Emperor", I never expected Andie literally taking the Imperial Crown off Hesso's head. As for the Byzantines being delusional; I highly doubt that. By now, I think that the rest of Europe sees them as a very great threat, with them being the most powerful nation and all. You say they can't make Hesso write off half a millennium of Roman tradition? I say: We'll see. The Komnenids managed to make the Mediterranean a Roman Sea once more; they managed to subdue the Muslims, conquer the Iberia, and fend off the Mongols. The same blood that runs through Andie's veins ran through those of the man who killed the Pope and led the Sack of Rome. And how much does royal tradition matter to a simpleton like Hesso? I doubt it will in the hypothetical moment of his grand defeat at the hands of the Greeks.

The Byzantines giving out titles is the perfect example of what I'm trying to say; how much is the title "Basileos" worth nowadays in this timeline? Very little, compared to the value it had when the Komnenids were on the rise. The Empire, however, is a whole different beast compared to the Papacy; with the Pope's influence as diminished as it is these days, I doubt he could allow himself to diminish the worth of his power to hand out Imperial titles, seeing as that is one of his rare privileges these days. This war is possibly the last chance the Papacy has to restore itself back to a once prestigious position.

And in the end, of course that all of this is purely hypothetical. I myself pointed out the reasons why this campaign is going to be very hard for Byzantium, I certainly don't think they'll have an easy time winning it. But Roman power may be projected a little bit farther into Germany than even Andronikos expects, for Alexandros II is certainly not looking at maps of Northern Germany out of leisure...
 
"The Megas was a saint, this one was a drunken lech" - HAH!

Clearly, Andronikos never read chapters 5-10 of Rome AARisen; he'd have more hope for his son.

Allying with Smolensk is on the surface a good idea, except that brings them right into Russian politics and would probably alarm rather than favourably dispose the Sortmarkers.

Alexander's bigger army is a bad idea for three reasons:

1. Andronikos will have to feed it, which he probably won't.
2. If it feeds itself, it will acquire the worst reputation ever, ruining his future contacts with the West.
3. In Alex tries to purchase the food, he will run low on gold.

The winning move is not to play. Unless the military might is useful in later diplomatic negotiations. Which he would have already been in on had he not been so honourable.
 
Last edited:
Given his eventual cognomen, I suppose Alexandros will somehow pull this off...but all the same, there's a very real possibility of his walking into a Basil-at-Majorca scenario and having to fight his way out. It might be good for him, actually, in the long run. Before Majorca, Basil's successes against the Turks had him thinking of himself as semi-devine; afterwards, he had a serious measure of humility knocked into him. Alexandros might need something similar if he wants to survive much longer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back