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Brote Heckler said:
Hmm... are their nations that will have Quantity over Quality and nations that will have Guerrilla Warfare? While I can see the logic in them being separate, shouldn't some countries have them both or will we have event chains that will switch the two when ones country is being invaded, such as in the case of North Vietnam?
North Vietnam had normal army and irregular units - Vietcong. When you think about Vietnam war, you probably think about booby traps, night attacks on the US bases and so on. In most cases, they were carried by guerilla/irregular Vietcong units(People's Army of Vietnam commenced most of it's large operations after US withdrawal from region, IIRC). So basicaly, North Vietnam should have normal W.P.-like doctrine path and some bonuses for guerilla units in South Vietnam via event.
 
Foxbat said:
http://gallery.filefront.com/ColdWarmod//897167/
123 techs. I've changed nuclear doctrines a little, so they sound more logical.
I'm open for thoughts on air doctrines tech tree :)

Ahem, could you send me the files? because when i make the statistics for the remaining land units, a new version will be released (which can be this evening)
 
Kretoxian said:
Ahem, could you send me the files? because when i make the statistics for the remaining land units, a new version will be released (which can be this evening)
I need to finish assigning effects for the techs, unless you want to include it without effects.
 
Foxbat said:
I need to finish assigning effects for the techs, unless you want to include it without effects.


Oh, ok, no, don't worry, assign the effects.
 
Foxbat said:
North Vietnam had normal army and irregular units - Vietcong. When you think about Vietnam war, you probably think about booby traps, night attacks on the US bases and so on. In most cases, they were carried by guerilla/irregular Vietcong units(People's Army of Vietnam commenced most of it's large operations after US withdrawal from region, IIRC). So basicaly, North Vietnam should have normal W.P.-like doctrine path and some bonuses for guerilla units in South Vietnam via event.

I believe it was part of... Mao Zedong's leaflet on Guerrilla Warfare? I think he called it the "Protracted People's War," first you have guerrillas fighting in the bush and then you have a huge all out strike with normal troop formations, which was commenced in the Tet Offensive.

The Tet Offensive would doom positive American appeal toward the Vietnam War forever and closed the door on continued Americanization of the conflict, thus the American doctrine of Vietnamization, pioneered and created by my personal hero, Richard M. Nixon. The Nixon Doctrine of diplomacy was thus born and America's allies would be expected to fight their own battles.

But of course, throughout the Vietnam War the Vietnamese could have at anytime launched a full scale offensive like Tet, and probably would have been cut to pieces which is why the American's wanted it so badly as they entrenched themselves in their fire bases and only launched insertions.
 
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BTW Foxbat i think that i'm going to modify just a bit a line of the land doctrines,
this one:
Code:
required  = { 6040 7430 }
    effects =
    { #command = { type = enable_task which = nuke }
      command = { type = task_efficiency which = nuke value = 0.2 }
    }
  }

The nuke mission should be only be activable by the events of the nuclear war, remember?
 
Naval tech tree

6fpcif.png
First rough sketch for naval doctrines.
 
Have combat engineers been eliminated? I didn't see them on the brigade chart.

Also, what is the function of APCs in game? Seems redundant as most division of any type would contain these organically. And with motorization techs.

It seems that transport choppers should not be a brigade as they never operate in brigade formations anyway. But should not be a unit at all. Just an increase to TC, like a logistics tech. Maybe increase speed of certain units.

It has only been the last several years that a formation the size of a brigade or division has been Air Mobile in the real since of the word. The 101st has enough airlift to move 1 of its brigades by chopper at any one time. Shithooks have been much more useful at the company or platoon level.
 
PanzerWilly said:
Have combat engineers been eliminated? I didn't see them on the brigade chart.

Also, what is the function of APCs in game? Seems redundant as most division of any type would contain these organically. And with motorization techs.

It seems that transport choppers should not be a brigade as they never operate in brigade formations anyway. But should not be a unit at all. Just an increase to TC, like a logistics tech. Maybe increase speed of certain units.

It has only been the last several years that a formation the size of a brigade or division has been Air Mobile in the real since of the word. The 101st has enough airlift to move 1 of its brigades by chopper at any one time. Shithooks have been much more useful at the company or platoon level.

It's up to Foxbat answer some of these questions but anyway...
The APCs brigades are there to represent the motorization of the regular infantry units, and the transport helicopters one, to represent in some way the helicopter transported units (platoon sized, i suppose) in some wars of the timeline, for example, Vietnam.
 
PanzerWilly said:
Have combat engineers been eliminated? I didn't see them on the brigade chart.
IIRC, we replaced vanilla motorised anti-air for engineer brigade. I think I've uploaded *.txt file with all units models somewhere in this thread.

PanzerWilly said:
Also, what is the function of APCs in game? Seems redundant as most division of any type would contain these organically. And with motorization techs.
It's function is to provide motorisation(duh) for infantry divisions(not motorised ones), light infantry divisions and irregular divisions. While no doubt that from 1950's all NATO and W.P. had integral APC formations, but world is not limited with NATO/W.P. countries, isn't it? I doubt that in 1950's - 1960's Chinese, Indian and opther Asian/African/South American countries had loads of motorised infantry divisions. And motorization techs allow production of MOT brigades(think about those brigades as APC's issued for battalions).

PanzerWilly said:
It seems that transport choppers should not be a brigade as they never operate in brigade formations anyway. But should not be a unit at all. Just an increase to TC, like a logistics tech. Maybe increase speed of certain units.
And nobody claims that they should work as brigades, basically it's a transport helos issued to that divisions and integrated in it's TO&E. They are used by light infantry divisions to convert them to airmobile divisions
(they shouldn't be issued to mot. infantry/mech. infantry/armored divisions and e.t.c.). And we can't use speed increase via tech, because as of now, it's bugged(will work only with already produced units, units in production/or that will be built in future will not be affected).
 
I am glad that Engineers are still in. Engineers and Artillery are the two most important brigades in game. In real-life they are supremely important as well/

Ideas about Units and Brigades:

First, APCs and Transport Helos after research should give org and mor bonuses to Air Assault, Mot. Infantry, Mech Infantry, etc. On second thought a lot of equipment advances should do the same thing. This would recognize and increase in combat effectiveness as new equipment spreads throughout the military. Also, since the major powers have incentive to research these techs this will trickle down to friendly 3rd world govs allowing them to brigade their infantry.

This would be in addition to their brigade status (maybe limited to Neutral nation or 3rd Worlders). Otherwise there is no reason the US or USSR would ever research these vital areas. Why research Helos when I can build Airborne or Air Assault Divs anyway.

Also, Light Infantry should be classed as Reserve (ie. foot infantry without special or heavy weapons) this encompasses a large array of force around the world. Ideally this would be a semi-industrialized nations primary unit (with the capability to brigade these units into whatever hybrid is needed). Armored divisions would be hard to field for Semi-Ind nations impossible for Pre-Ind or Subsistence, hence they should have Armored brigades to attach to L. Inf.

A massed force of Light Infantry brigaded with artillery, anti-tank, APCs, and armor is essentially the PLA of China. As they will probably be Semi-Industrialized, this is a good fit.

Irregulars are probably the best unit for subsistence level economies. Basically Somalian warlords come to mind. Not a bunch of tech to research. Should probably only be one model. Man with a Kalashnikov hasn't changed in 50 years.
 
1) APC techs are prerequisites for NATO/W.P. motorised infantry divisions, so US/USSR players will be forced to research them, if they want to have those divisions.
2) There is no air assault division in the mod anymore, it's replaced by light infantry division with transport helo brigades. Also helicopter techs are required to produce ASW helicopters and DD models.
3) Light infantry division represents all sorts of more specialised infantry units, like mountain troops, air assault, US light infantry division and e.t.c. We already have irregular divisions with their own land doctrine tech tree, that will be used for all kinds of minor countries(they will replace militia).
4)IMHO normal infantry divisions(not motorized ones) are more suited for PLA in 1950 - 1970, but it's always opened for discussion. :)
If you have more questions/ideas, shoot 'em. :)
 
Can you post a tech tree for infantry? The one i found earlier in this post seems to be obsolete due to revisions.

Since the tech tree is based of the CORE tree, I would like to point out that the motorization of infantry was a major innovation of the WW2 era. After this war all major armies (esp. European powers) were very mechanized with few real foot infantry divisions left with even the massive Red Army was almost totally motorized. Armies in the rest of the world that were not motorized or mechanized to a great extent also were essentially peasant armies. These were comprised of foot infantry formations rarely backed up with artillery, anti-tank etc.

The difference between 'infantry' division and 'motorized' division was very small. In this time period it would be best if all 'infantry divisions' were considered motorized. All unmotorized infantry was 'reserve' or 'irregular'.

Light Infantry is outside this paradigm as they were 'motorized' in other means.

A bigger difference was between 6bn Divisions (favored by the Soviets and WP) and 9bn Divisions (favored by US and NATO)
 
All I am saying is that a non-motorized infantry division is more like a militia or reserve formation than a true infantry division. They lack heavy weapons (artillery, etc.) Especially in the case of India or China.

The PLA was basically a peasant army. Numerous poorly trained and equipped infantry formations with few heavy weapons. This is quite different from, for example, a Finnish infantry division. The PLA didn't have the industrial base to field infantry divisions like Finland or Austria could. Just picked two non-aligned countries out of a hat.

The PLA had many advantages that armies of that type have over mechanized armies. Smaller logistical footprint for one. Cheaper units to build, maintain, and upgrade. This should be reflected in Industrialization levels. But they were also limited by what they could produce.

My infantry units would be:

Infantry - backbone unit of Industrialized or PI nations (considered fully motorized when built)
Reserve - backbone unit of Pre-Industrialized nations (may be motorized by adding APC brigade or upgunned by adding Artillery Brig.)
Irregulars - backbone unit of Agricultural nations

You may split these units however you want. (NATO, WP, etc.)

Also, with regard to the Transport Helos. I think we may be confusing tactical speed and maneuverability with strategic speed and maneuverability. Strategic speed the rate of movement between provinces. Tactical speed the rate of movement in a province. The game simulates strategic speed and abstracts tactical speed. Increases in tactical speed should lead to increases in organization, morale, etc.

Motorization of Infantry increase strategic and tactical speed and maneuverability because of the across the board effect but the 'helicopterization' of units in this time period only increased tactical speed. These choppers allowed a unit to engage the enemy more effectively tactically in the province of action. The range and cargo restrictions of choppers of this time did not allow for strategic level moving of large field formations (Brigade, Division, Corps).

Even now the 101st with 2 Aviation Brigades still cant move more than 1 brigade by air at any one time. This is the most mobile division in military history. They are tactically mobile not strategically mobile. Once they are airlifted by heavy cargo planes into an area most of the division will drive to the area of operations not be choppered in.

Realistically, a chopper brigade should be a mix of attack and transport birds. It should add to a HA, SA, org., mor., and reduce penalties for terrain (attack, defense) due to the tactical speed they increase.
 
I think that it is too late to talk about the infantry tech tree, discuss/give ideas about the naval doctrines tree. And when all the trees has been done, we will modify the infantry one ok?