• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Kretoxian

Anon, we are legion
23 Badges
Oct 12, 2005
2.743
2
  • Iron Cross
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • 500k Club
  • Semper Fi
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
The ideology matrix that i had in mind is: (starting from left ideology to right)

Communist (Stalinist in Vanilla) --> This is the prefered ideology for the Eastern European Nations
Maoist (Leninist in Vanilla) --> The perfect for Asian Communists
Castrist (the name is provisional, it is like the left wing radical of vanilla) --> I want to represent the latin american communism.

Social Democrat (unchanged)
Social Liberal (unchanged)
Market Liberal (unchanged)
Ultra Liberal (unchanged)

Dictatorship --> Fascist in Vanilla, to represent the dictatorship of south america and sout europe, like Spain Greece or Argentine among others.

Neo Nazi --> We need this ideology to represent the what if case of the ultra right parties gaining power in Europe (if my history knowledege doesn't fail me there were a nazi-like party that won the elections in Austria in the 80s.)

Edit Below you have the code (of course that it is debatable, specially with the right wing dictatorship and corrupt, if you have a better idea, post here please.)
Code:
CCATEGORY_NATIONAL_SOCIALIST;Extremist;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_FASCIST;Fundamentalist;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_PATERNAL_AUTOCRAT;Autocrat;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_SOCIAL_CONSERVATIVE;Social Conservative;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_MARKET_LIBERAL;Market Liberal;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_SOCIAL_LIBERAL;Social Liberal;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_SOCIAL_DEMOCRAT;Social Democrat;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_LEFT_WING_RADICAL;Left Wing Radical;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_LENINIST;Communist;;;;;;;;;;;;X
CATEGORY_STALINIST;Maoist;;;;;;;;;;;;X
 
Last edited:
Kretoxian said:
(if my history knowledege doesn't fail me there were a nazi-like party that won the elections in Austria in the 80s.)


Sorry to say but it fails you in that particular case... ;)

First, Austria is one of two countries (the other being germany) where anything remotely similar to a nazi-party is illegal. Showing a swastika, saying Hitler was a nice guy or denying that there were any concentration camps will get you in jail for a certain amount of time (up to life imprisonment).

We only got a right wing party (like every other european country) that gained the second place with 27% of the votes in the 1999 elections and got in to a coalition government with the christian social party. In 2002 they dropped back to 10%, but they were never a major factor in austrian politics.


Sorry for writing so much on such a minor subject. I just can't stand it that half of the world thinks that Austria is the nazi-country.
 
Uh okey.
You seem good with austrian politics/history, would you like to make austrian ministers?, PM me if the answer is yes.
 
if we can find better names for Fascist and paternal autocrat, would be good, but those two names are good for now.
 
Kretoxian said:
Castrist (the name is provisional, it is like the left wing radical of vanilla) --> I want to represent the latin american communism.

"Left Wing Radical" would probably cover it better, since it's more applicable the world over.
 
Ceeker said:
"Left Wing Radical" would probably cover it better, since it's more applicable the world over.

Yeah that's probably the best option.
 
Hey! what About Paternal Autocrat into "Fundamentalist", it would fit quite well with some islamic countries.
 
Maoism should be further to the left the Communism (which should probably be renamed Marxist-Leninism). The Sino-Soviet Break was because the Maoists felt that the Russian style communists were insufficiently radicalized (I.E. rejecting cult of personality and absolute dictatorship, introducing moderate economic policy, policy of peaceful co-existence) etc. etc.
Other Maoist states would be the DPRK, Cambodia and Albania, and they were also much more radical.
 
Kretoxian said:
Hey! what About Paternal Autocrat into "Fundamentalist", it would fit quite well with some islamic countries.
I was thinking that we could replace "Neo-Nazi" with the more generic "Extremist" term, so that states like Iran, Uganda etc. can still fit into the ideological matrix, as well as people like Zhironovsky.
 
Last edited:
Autovonbismarck said:
Maoism should be further to the left the Communism. The Sino-Soviet Break was because the Maoists felt that the Russian style communists were insufficiently radicalized (I.E. rejecting cult of personality and absolute dictatorship, introducing moderate economic policy, policy of peaceful co-existence) etc. etc.
Other Maoist states would be the DPRK, Cambodia and Albania, and they were also much more radical.

Agree, and it's rather a good idea.

AutovonBismarck said:
(which should probably be renamed Marxist-Leninism)

Don't agree because they were knowed as "communist" states in almost the entire world. Furthermore, the Marxist-Leninism term was more suitable for the 20s 30s or the XIXth century, but not for the XXth century.

AutovonBismarck said:
I was thinking that we could replace "Neo-Nazi" with the more generic "Extremist" term, so that states like Iran, Uganda etc. can still fit into the ideological matrix, as well as people like Zhironovsky.

Yes, it could be, but then... what ideology do you propose for Paternal Autocrat?
 
Paternal Autocrat... Monarchy, at least two countries in the middle-east were monarchies. Although, you could make it an umbrella Traditionalist, monarchy was afterall popular in Africa, so was tribal councils.
 
Don't agree because they were knowed as "communist" states in almost the entire world. Furthermore, the Marxist-Leninism term was more suitable for the 20s 30s or the XIXth century, but not for the XXth century.
Sounds good.

Paternal Autocrat... Monarchy, at least two countries in the middle-east were monarchies. Although, you could make it an umbrella Traditionalist, monarchy was afterall popular in Africa, so was tribal councils.
I think "Absolutist" or "Autocracy" might capture the idea better, because we have to share this ideology with most military dictators as well. It would be rather odd seeing Park Chung Hee or Manuel Noriega labeled as Monarchs.
 
Heh, yeah. King Noriega would be a scary image. Autocracy works better than Absolutist, because Absolutist is also a Monarchist term.
 
I think we should change Social Democrat to Socialist or Populist to simulate those who were voted into office either based on a wide base of support from the peasant class or those who were elected into office during the Twentieth Century and have done so as Socialists, I mainly call them Social Democrats anyways.
 
Kretoxian said:
Furthermore, the Marxist-Leninism term was more suitable for the 20s 30s or the XIXth century, but not for the XXth century.


This is not true. The term Marxism - Leninism was widely used
in the USSR, and I bet in the other members of the Warsaw pact
as well, during the entire Soviet era, till 1991. It is aboslutely
applicable to the post WW II world.
 
Other Maoist states would be the DPRK, Cambodia and Albania, and they were also much more radical.
Also consider Romania. Romania was another one of those hardline Stalinist countries with clear sympathies to PRC, DPRK, and Albania (although it stayed in Warsaw Pact).

I think we should change Social Democrat to Socialist or Populist
I vote against that. It is bad enough already that social democrats in HOI2 are represented as radical left-wingers. I definately don't want NATO countries such as France or Italy to show up as "Socialist" at any time.

The term Marxism - Leninism was widely used
in the USSR
USSR no longer exists, so no one cares. Nowadays the ideology is referred to simply as Communist even in Russia.

"Left Wing Radical" would probably cover it better
Agreed, leave LWR as it is. It will apply very well to a crapload of countries around the world from India to south America.
 
kami888 said:
USSR no longer exists, so no one cares. Nowadays the ideology is referred to simply as Communist even in Russia.
Eh... no. Any academic, or half-ways informed, discussion of the ideology underpinning the USSR will classify it as "Marxist-Leninism". Given the wide variety of communist currents (with Trotskism and Maoism being particularly relevant) it makes little to no sense to refer to Stalinism as simply "Communist".
 
or half-ways informed, discussion of the ideology underpinning the USSR will classify it as "Marxist-Leninism".
...only if this discussion is taking place in Marxist circles.

Also, read the beginning of the thread.
Vanilla "Stalinist" is referred to as "Maoist".
Vanilla "Leninist" is referred to as "Communist".
It makes sense to me and to most people.
 
kami888 said:
...only if this discussion is taking place in Marxist circles.
If the discussion is talking place in any circles where historical accuracy is valued. The official ideology of the USSR was Marxist-Leninism and this is not another way of saying Communism. When people say "Communist Russia" they are referring to either the ruling party or the fact that Marxist-Leninism is a subset of communism.

To put it another way, the "Communist" label could just as easily apply to Maoism. That would be fine if the one tag was to be used for both but it makes no sense to have Maoism and Communism as differing ideologies. Indeed of the two terms "Marxist-Leninism" is every bit as relevant to the post-war period, and is considered so in countless academic works, as Maoism.

Also, read the beginning of the thread
I fail to see what the overall arrangement of the matrix has to do with correcting your statement. Naturally you are free to discard my advice but for the sake of historical accuracy, if nothing else, I suggest that "Communism" be renamed "Marxist-Leninism". Unless you have a good reason otherwise of course.
 
That would be fine if the one tag was to be used for both but it makes no sense to have Maoism and Communism as differing ideologies.
And it would make even less sense to have "Marxism-Leninism" and "Maoism" as different ideologies, because Maosits consider themselves "Marxist-Leninist-Maoists". And I definately don't want to see a "Marxist-Leninist-Maoist" ideology in the game.

In any case, I don't wish to have a semantic discussion right now, so I just casted my vote. You voted against and canceled it out. Great.

I fail to see what the overall arrangement of the matrix has to do with correcting your statement
It was just your error in previous post where you said that it makes no sense to rename Stalinism to Communism, whereas in fact the game renames Stalinism to Maoism.